Character designs

[Chakra]

http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=24608.new#new

Hmmm that looks ugly

Go away troll.

Please, the insults...this isnt the Fisting Zone. I just gave my opinion

Well i could really, but its a bit late
Then tell us why you think that it's ugly.

IQ Unlimited ;____;

There bad you got to admit it.

show us better

Well i could really, but its a bit late

User banned.  When you're banned, stay banned.  Twat.

[Svirin Kerath]

I like the pistol, though it looks unholsterable. I don't like the little breaks in the slide... they look weird, and make no practical sense. But you know, weights are used for competition shooting- combat handguns use muzzle compensators. Even recoil compensation isn't worth extra weight when you're carting 50+ lbs of other equipment, and a rifle, especially since pistols are hardly used any more, compared to SMGs and rifles (not counting common police, but even they often carry semi-auto rifles now).

Speaking of which, where the hell did the term 'Battle Rifle' come from? Halo made it up, battle rifles do not exist. That being said, I am forced to agree with Mr. Banned Troll. It's ugly. While all the little details on the pistol look good because it is so small, they make the rifle look crowded and messy. Look at real life rifles- none are anywhere near that complex, outwardly. All those little inlets increase the chance of getting it caught on something and increase the need for cleaning (again you use those breaks on the barrel shroud and upper receiver... whyyyy?!). Details like that for the sake of detail are a detriment to the design, which is a bit weak and overdone now. If you don't go for tried and true designs, at least use more original and unique design shapes.

Plus, there's no way that's a PDW.

[Espadon]

All right, time to defend myself! First of all, that's not the slide. The slide mechanism's under the panels on top, and the only moving external part of the side is that last segment. The pistol is kind of like the SOCOM in function; it's a pistol for snipers. The silencer is extraneous, really. I don't know why I put it there -- I'm not a big fan of it. 50+ lbs of equipment isn't a problem for the power-armored infantry of the late 29th century, of course.
The term "battle rifle" refers to military rifles that use larger calibers [like 7.62] as opposed to "assault rifles" which generally use lighter calibers like the 5.56. I should have said "P90 format" [long butt, short distance between the hands] instead of PDW, but I wanted to convey the fact that the Mk.38A2 is more compact than the term 'battle rifle' would suggest, mainly due to the bullpup design. Also wasn't as concerned with the 38A2 being 'pretty' as with the pistol. There has to be some ugly guns somewhere.
From the artistic-symbolic point of view, I designed the two guns in question with the intention of them being ornate, since they were designed at the height of Sovereignty technology. After the tech collapse of the near-sol sectors, weapons became a lot more flat and simple looking; some even crude. I want people to easily recognize weapons from pre- and post-collapse.

Anyways, here's a commonwealth carbine-ish weapon. It looks pretty conventional -- not sure whether to have it as pre or post-collapse, really, since I'm not sure if I want the Commonwealth to have a more simple style even pre-collapse to contrast with the ornate motifs of Sovereignty. This weapon uses a smaller caliber, as you can probably tell.



This is ERC-3 again; not too much to say. Originally I drew this to put on the armor afterwards [proportion checking] but I left it like this since I found it pleasing [and I didn't have an 'official' ERC fullbody anyways].

[-Skykanden-]

Ohh nice weapon. And ERC-3 is a girl, but not any soldiers with those suits similar? (men)

[tehsnipah]

espadon= master chief drawer

[vulbastick]

that latest pic of ERC-3 is fuckin sick
-
her face looks a litle like scarlet johansen
-
v. nice stuff overall can't wait to see moremore!
your gun concepts are really thought out i always get a bit stuck when drawin things like that

[O.R.I.O.N.]

Gun looks amazing.

[a-4-year-old]

Gurl looks amazing.

I concur.

[Svirin Kerath]

All right, time to defend myself! First of all, that's not the slide. The slide mechanism's under the panels on top, and the only moving external part of the side is that last segment. The pistol is kind of like the SOCOM in function; it's a pistol for snipers. The silencer is extraneous, really. I don't know why I put it there -- I'm not a big fan of it. 50+ lbs of equipment isn't a problem for the power-armored infantry of the late 29th century, of course.
The term "battle rifle" refers to military rifles that use larger calibers [like 7.62] as opposed to "assault rifles" which generally use lighter calibers like the 5.56. I should have said "P90 format" [long butt, short distance between the hands] instead of PDW, but I wanted to convey the fact that the Mk.38A2 is more compact than the term 'battle rifle' would suggest, mainly due to the bullpup design. Also wasn't as concerned with the 38A2 being 'pretty' as with the pistol. There has to be some ugly guns somewhere.
From the artistic-symbolic point of view, I designed the two guns in question with the intention of them being ornate, since they were designed at the height of Sovereignty technology. After the tech collapse of the near-sol sectors, weapons became a lot more flat and simple looking; some even crude. I want people to easily recognize weapons from pre- and post-collapse.

Anyways, here's a commonwealth carbine-ish weapon. It looks pretty conventional -- not sure whether to have it as pre or post-collapse, really, since I'm not sure if I want the Commonwealth to have a more simple style even pre-collapse to contrast with the ornate motifs of Sovereignty. This weapon uses a smaller caliber, as you can probably tell.



This is ERC-3 again; not too much to say. Originally I drew this to put on the armor afterwards [proportion checking] but I left it like this since I found it pleasing [and I didn't have an 'official' ERC fullbody anyways].

[Giant pic of a girl in a skin-tight suit]

The SOCOM isn't for snipers specifically- Special Operations COMand- it's for Spec Ops. And if it's for powered armor, isn't the trigger/guard kinda.. small? The broken pattern over the slide still doesn't make sense, nor look good. The DE's slide isn't very traditional (just the back part is large enough to pull), yet it's more or less smooth and flush.

As for the rifle, that term is quite unsubstantiated. The M14 is then technically a 'battle rifle,' yet is still considered an assault rifle by most modern classifications, those other classifications being the ones that classify it as a sniper rifle (M21 is the new designation; not sure on that number though). Plus putting the chamber for such a high calibre weapon so far back makes little sense... which is why I wonder why the carbine is not a bullpup. It looks a lot better, I like the strong WWII-era German vibe from the grip/trigger (the attachment from the bottom of the grip to the stock looks sorta slapped on though), but the foregrip is kind of ugly- but it reminds me of the M16A2+, which I think is ugly. If you want it to look cruder, than I can understand that, but it makes me think of DI, which is not a good choice for a primitive carbine.

But back to the point of elaborate design, little greebles like that sticking off of rifles aren't elegant or advanced, just cluttered. If you want them to seem advanced, with a lot of resources, the guns should just be etched like so: http://www.lewhorton.com/aristocrat.jpg

Looks a lot classier. Again, adding detail for the sake of detail = no. Try to give each part a specific function, even if you have to make them up.

As for the girl, looks good I guess, but that's not much of a design, so I wonder why you put it up. I'm really glad you're fleshing out facial details more, and encourage you to keep practicing.. looks a bit like you're not used to faces/heads when attached to full-body poses.

[Espadon]

M14 is a battle rifle. It's always been considered a battle rifle. The last time I read Armed Forces magazine the newest M14 version's full name even included the words "Battle Rifle." I don't know what you're smoking that you think the M14 is an assault rifle.

The M14 rifle (more formally the United States Rifle, Caliber 7.62 mm, M14) is an American selective fire battle rifle firing 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition.

Did you confuse the M14 with another M-foo gun?

Anyways, I find your tastes very, well, I guess the word is "Victorian." You have a somewhat constrained or even conservative view of how sci-fi should be done. It seems you're judging DEV by what you had in your Sol project, and by Project Sol's technology et cetera. Conversely though, sometimes I feel my concepts start having an almost anime-like quality, which is something I need to keep in check, I think.

The pistol's proportions are just weird. I should have put a reference object so you could see the scale of the thing. Or perhaps I could re-proportion, I don't know. Dislike the broken-panel look all you want; it's a Sovereignty motif! I'll put in a Commonwealth soldier in the story named Corporal Kerath who'll constantly complain about the ugliness of Sovereignty tech, how 'bout that?
Coming back to the idea of "adding detail for the sake of detail," Victorian taste was very much tacky like that, so either way you look at it, I'm fine. Who said Sovereignty was the supercool-noobbeater-on-a-stick faction? Sheesh. And that pistol your showing is ugly as hell to me. It's like some piece of crap out of Hellsing, ffs! [not a fan of that!]

Carbine. I wanted it to look totally crappy and I totally phailed since a lot of people seem to like it. The one thing you named -- the grip being almost AR-15clone-ish was intended from conception. The reason was that I was trying to make a subtle mockery of all the modern-gun-only freaks, but I'm guessing it backfired. The connector looks slapped on, I know, but I'm kinda glad you pointed that out, since, again, it was what I was going for -- flimsiness.

So, you tell me I need to practice more on human forms? Sure, but I can't pass up this opportunity, since now you're just asking for it: You're not in a position to be talking about how well I draw humans yourself! If you'd like, I can start naming all your mistakes in precise terms, but you'd have to give me some time to prepare a list or diagram, which I need to consider if I wish to spend the time on it. No disrespect though.
I did fix the zipper near the collarbone after I scanned the image though; it doesn't look right in the image above. Oh, and by the way, nice bullshìt about "fleshing out the facial features," since I did nearly no shading on the face, especially compared to my other ERC-3 concepts.

[Svirin Kerath]

M14 is a battle rifle. It's always been considered a battle rifle. The last time I read Armed Forces magazine the newest M14 version's full name even included the words "Battle Rifle." I don't know what you're smoking that you think the M14 is an assault rifle.

The M14 rifle (more formally the United States Rifle, Caliber 7.62 mm, M14) is an American selective fire battle rifle firing 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition.

Did you confuse the M14 with another M-foo gun?

Anyways, I find your tastes very, well, I guess the word is "Victorian." You have a somewhat constrained or even conservative view of how sci-fi should be done. It seems you're judging DEV by what you had in your Sol project, and by Project Sol's technology et cetera. Conversely though, sometimes I feel my concepts start having an almost anime-like quality, which is something I need to keep in check, I think.

The pistol's proportions are just weird. I should have put a reference object so you could see the scale of the thing. Or perhaps I could re-proportion, I don't know. Dislike the broken-panel look all you want; it's a Sovereignty motif! I'll put in a Commonwealth soldier in the story named Corporal Kerath who'll constantly complain about the ugliness of Sovereignty tech, how 'bout that?
Coming back to the idea of "adding detail for the sake of detail," Victorian taste was very much tacky like that, so either way you look at it, I'm fine. Who said Sovereignty was the supercool-noobbeater-on-a-stick faction? Sheesh. And that pistol your showing is ugly as hell to me. It's like some piece of crap out of Hellsing, ffs! [not a fan of that!]

Carbine. I wanted it to look totally crappy and I totally phailed since a lot of people seem to like it. The one thing you named -- the grip being almost AR-15clone-ish was intended from conception. The reason was that I was trying to make a subtle mockery of all the modern-gun-only freaks, but I'm guessing it backfired. The connector looks slapped on, I know, but I'm kinda glad you pointed that out, since, again, it was what I was going for -- flimsiness.

So, you tell me I need to practice more on human forms? Sure, but I can't pass up this opportunity, since now you're just asking for it: You're not in a position to be talking about how well I draw humans yourself! If you'd like, I can start naming all your mistakes in precise terms, but you'd have to give me some time to prepare a list or diagram, which I need to consider if I wish to spend the time on it. No disrespect though.
I did fix the zipper near the collarbone after I scanned the image though; it doesn't look right in the image above. Oh, and by the way, nice bullshìt about "fleshing out the facial features," since I did nearly no shading on the face, especially compared to my other ERC-3 concepts.

"Victorian?" I was giving an example of etching, and that's the first thing google images provided when I typed in 'etched walther'. The pattern is not what I was referring to, but the process. I still say that adding detail for the sake of detail is a design no-no.

As for when the M14 was considered an 'assault rifle,' it became known as that around the time 7.62 became NATO universal standard and the M14 came into use. I have over a dozen books on firearms, many written or edited by reputable weapon advisers, and none of them classify the M14 as a 'battle rifle,' but an 'assault rifle.' The term 'battle rifle' started around the time Halo did, and is an inane term that hardly applies in any fashion. Manufacturers of M14 mods invented it to sell retractable stocks.

The broken panels aren't just ugly but useless. Unless you can come up with an explanation for their purpose, I find no reason, in terms of design, to keep them on. You want thoughts on these designs, and I gave some.

As for your defensive rant towards the end, this isn't about my art. I'm not throwing my images out here in this thread and asking others to tell me what they think. I'm aware of my own mistakes, and my own need to practice, as anyone pursuing art needs practice. But my making mistakes in the past does not make my opinion irrelevant. I assume you're a big boy now, and so I'm not silver-lining my critiques. What I meant by 'fleshing out' was not shading specifically, but defining facial features at all, which I had never seen you do to that extent on full figures, if ever, usually eschewing such detail in favor of sketchiness.

[Espadon]

All right, the guns could use less extraneous bells and whistles that even I don't know what they're supposed to do. But also, I still think that Walther is ugly. It's something you'd send off to a street hoodlum that likes gold-capped teeth and tons of tacky jewelry.

For your argument against the words "battle rifle," the M14 was a poor choice to use as an example. What you're saying is that the term 'battle rifle' is akin to a trademark name for the BR55/BR55HB SR in the game Halo 2 and 3, respectively, and while it's somewhat true that the term "battle rifle" appears to be a neologism, its origins date back to 1912.

Procurement information for the Navy, showing the United States Navy Mark 14 Mod 0 Enhanced Battle Rifle used by the SEALs and Marines: http://www.finance.hq.navy.mil/fmb/08pres/proc/WPN_Book.pdf

The words "battle rifle" is used specifically as part of the name of this version of the M14. The original M14 could be called an assault rifle, but it is a huge stretch, since the M14 uses 7.62x51"full power service cartridge" [opposed to the AK-47 which uses a 7.62x33 "intermediate cartridge"] and its weight was too light for effective automatic fire due to it's caliber and muzzle velocity. As far as I know, the M14 was used primarily in semi-auto mode and especially as spotter weapons, it's "assault rifle" capacity replaced by the M16, which could be considered a true assault rifle. As a neologism, I don't know if it's prudent for me to use the term "battle rifle" seeing such a heavy association with the Halo gun, but it certainly isn't a proper noun either. Luckily the Mk.38's name is only described as "Kommando" [I don't have to explain that since you'd know] and besides, there's no "battle rifle" term in German anyways. It's just like gewehr for anything that's not a sturmgewehr or maschinengewehr. They don't use the term infanteriegewehr now, right? That was around the end of the 19th century.
Anyways, I'm not denying that the usage of the term "battle rifle" isn't quite as appropriate as I originally thought it would be though, since I intended the Mk.38 as an amalgam of Wikipedia's [I emphasize that because currently it's the only reference readily accessible that appears to create a distinction] definition of "assault rifle" and "battle rifle."

An assault rifle is a selective fire rifle or carbine firing ammunition with muzzle energies intermediate between those typical of pistol and battle rifle ammunition.

...Assault rifles are the standard small arms in most modern armies, having largely replaced or supplemented larger, more powerful battle rifles, such as the World War II-era M1 Garand and Tokarev SVT.

I'm no ballistics expert so would you be kind enough to tell me why

putting the chamber for such a high calibre weapon so far back makes little sense...

Looking on my original sketches [which I took out to review the notes I wrote since you asked about why I had those ugly panels] the note about the 3-segmented topshell for the Mk.36 was that the middle "panel" was hinged on the front juncture so it could be flipped up to reveal a display for either ammo amount or a small electronic scope display if the flashlight in the muzzle shroud was swapped for optics. It doesn't make too much sense since you'd think the muzzle flash perhaps would blind out the scope when firing, but those were the original thoughts.

Here's the drawing. It obviously doesn't have the unnecessary embellishments that you hate so much, haha. The bottom sketch was me fiddling around with having the middle panel pop up as a scope. I didn't like it that much.



As for the panels on the pistol, they don't really have much of a rationale behind them, but I did it anyways since I wanted the two guns to look related. However, a single uniform panel for the pistol made it look even smaller than it does currently, so I split it up. I could redo it, however I'd like to keep spending most of my time focusing on weaving the storyline.

I'm not sure at this point what I want exactly with the technology that DEV uses. Originally it was supposed to be like the weapons in UT or Quake, where you had weapons with "screw it, it's cool" technology, but I've kind of shifted backwards towards tech that resembles modern day stuff more, since I kinda find myself trying to explain everything in rational terms. It doesn't exactly match up with the tech that the Revenant armor uses and the setting, I think, and I was a bit miffed at that last night, because you're only helping to keep me into the barely-future Sci-Fi rut.
I retract that statement last night, since, yes, I agree that you didn't ask for critiques for your work, and I'll also concede that somehow I got the notion that you were my only critic, considering that you're the only person writing comments of any real substance! However, I was aiming for your specific comment

encourage you to keep practicing

which was quite condescending, and my question was, who are you to be telling me that clause -- I can't help but wonder if you think that you are, what, superior due to the fact that you used the Soldat Forums for far longer than I have, or a perceived notion that you'd received more artistic training than I have and I need your approval lest I throw down my pencil in frustration. Of course, I could well be projecting and you only merely said that as a friendly pat-on-the-back from a fellow artist, but certainly it came off to me as quite a mockery.

With that over with, I decided to also post some very rough ideas I had. I wanted the factions in DEV to have visually distinctive technology, though not in a alien-versus-human tech sort of way. Currently I think I want the Commonwealth to have an obsession of sorts with the picatinny rail [sorry Svir, more ugly M16 grip clones are coming] and prominent, exposed barrels, while Sovereignty may perhaps go with bulky muzzle-shrouded guns -- think "fat guns" like the SCAR11 from BF2142, the Lancer from GoW, or the MA5B/C from Halo.



As you can see, pretty much all are actually silly ideas that I use as seeds that could become actual designs -- well, except for the STAP on the top, that's a Commonwealth anti-materiel rifle and it's pretty much going to be like that. The bottom 3 are of the same gun, which I dubbed the "sub gun" because it looks like a fat submarine sandwich. It comes as my impression of a UT2004 weapon mod, and I tried to capture the entire asymmetrically aspect, with its weird display and oddly clustered barrel/grenade launcher/flashlight. Needless to say, it'll probably never become an official weapon, since it would be too far a stretch to work, not to mention too ugly for most people to stomach -- no pun intended.

[a-4-year-old]

a few of those designs don't really make a gun look very powerful, you should shoot (no pun intended) for a very recognizable design that is synonymous with the kinds of things you wish to associate with that rifle (good over bad, powerful or weak etc)

[Espadon]

I agree that they're extremely generic looking. It would be tough to assign an iconic thing like a "good" look or a "evil" look since there's really no good nor evil in the storyline [part of it is the characters discovering about that for themselves], so I need to think of some other things. Possibly one faction preferring curved designs while the other angular geometries? I can't think of any ideological contrasts that would be appropriate for what I have planned currently.

[a-4-year-old]

colors, the colors are what are important in that category. The most dramatic example of it would be Star wars, the jedi have blue or green lightsabres, while darth vader prefers red, strangely enough, the lazer colors are reversed :?

in this case, you could use the symbolism of green camo vs just a black gun.

Good vs evil does not have to be the symbolism of the gun, make them tell of the personality of the characters, make a curved dead sexeh gun for a female character, maybe a large character might prefer a large calibur, simple brutish weapon, while a smaller character might rely on a weapon that looks visibly lighter and faster.

[Espadon]

I considered that, though I think I probably want weapons to play less of an iconic role as in some other games. I'm trying to do something like that though, with the different factions. Warrants more thought. xD

Some more random ideas. Commonwealth will heavily emphasize on usage of walkers and other big, impressive mechanized ground units, while Sovereignty places more emphasis on [powered] infantry and airpower [although they also have heavy mechanized units, they just don't have the huge selection the Commonwealth gets]. Planned Commonwealth SPDR unit below. I might dub it the "baboon," I'm not sure why, even though everything else suggests the all-too-common name of "spider." It's a bit tough with mecha to be distinctive, since there's already a lot of different iconic styles -- Mechwarrior, Gundam, Evangelion, War of the Worlds, UT3, even BF2142. Some even say that the current SPDR design looks somewhat like a Protoss Dragoon. I'm also not sure whether to have the main cannon as an energy weapon or a ballistic. Currently I think I want it to be energy-based, which might become a Commonwealth specialty [Sovereignty mostly likes the raw power of KE].



The gun at the top is a possible design for a Commonwealth rocket launcher, possibly laser guided or otherwise homing. It's a recoilless design that's carried under the arm with the exhaust cone protruding from the back, though perhaps if you're in a power suit, you don't really need to worry about recoil from a rocket launcher...

Finally on the bottom are tentative knife designs. I'm not an enthusiastic slicer really, so I'm wondering what would be the most efficient design [is there such a thing?]. Right now I'm liking #1 and #2.

[a-4-year-old]

to be blunt (tis what I do) the rocket launcher looks like a nerf gun. It would look much better without that curved thing at the top and give it a larger stock.


 I like 4, just because I like angled designs, but every knife should have a partially serraded edge for detail's sake. It looks as if it would be more difficult to pull

If it helps, you could design all of a nations weapons off of the same central idea (brute force vs faster weapons) or you could give each nation a tank, a plane, a bomber, a rifle and have them on par with each other in terms of speed power and such.

[Espadon]

I never really met a nerf gun, so I'm not quite sure what you meant. By stock, I hope you aren't pointing to the exhaust cone in the back...? I'll fiddle with it a bit and see what I can come up with.

>.< Yeah I neglected to put any serrations except for the afterthought on #3. #4 difficult to pull how? The base of the blade or the slight crook at near the tip? Also need to think of where ERC-3 or the other chars wear their knives. For ERC-3, I think I wanted either on the inside of the forearm, worn on the shoulder, or on the calf, though I think that's only restricted to divers? Not sure.

I wanted it designed so that each faction has their own style, kind of like the Starcraft approach. It'll be tougher to balance but overall much more fun to do than to create a template and pretty much make everything a different skin of the same base platform.

[a-4-year-old]

I never really met a nerf gun, so I'm not quite sure what you meant. By stock, I hope you aren't pointing to the exhaust cone in the back...? I'll fiddle with it a bit and see what I can come up with.

>.< Yeah I neglected to put any serrations except for the afterthought on #3. #4 difficult to pull how? The base of the blade or the slight crook at near the tip? Also need to think of where ERC-3 or the other chars wear their knives. For ERC-3, I think I wanted either on the inside of the forearm, worn on the shoulder, or on the calf, though I think that's only restricted to divers? Not sure.

I wanted it designed so that each faction has their own style, kind of like the Starcraft approach. It'll be tougher to balance but overall much more fun to do than to create a template and pretty much make everything a different skin of the same base platform.

So thats what it is, it needs a change because it looks like a toy (nerf) they can wear a knife anywhere they can reach it easily. the ones with odd shapes (1-2) look like they would have to have an odd shaped hilt which you couldn't pull straight up.

[Espadon]

#1/2 wouldn't be that hard, I mean, if the Ghurkas use Kukris-in-a-sheathe then #1/2 shouldn't be too hard to draw out. It would depend on how the knife is placed in the sheathe I guess. #3 I think would actually had a hard time being drawn I think.

Date Posted: March 02, 2008, 08:23:48 pmI didn't quite like the original rifle I posted above [now removed] but I did like certain elements, so I hybridized it with the original ERIS A3:



I intended the big baseball-bat barrel to be actually an adaptive-camo thing, but Iq insisted it should be a silencer. Thoughts?