Cliff-Hanging

[NorrisScott]

Just a small, simple idea that I spent some time thinking on... thought it'd be surprisingly fun to have implemented, but I've no idea how hard it would be to do so, to be honest.

The idea is this:

When a Soldat is in the air, and comes across the edge of a polygon (such as with the shot above at Ash), they could tap the w button to have their Soldat grab onto the edge and hang there, much as corpses do when hooked against a polygon/sliding off of one on a ledge. Then, they can either jet (or if the map doesn't have jets, tap w again) to get up onto the polygon, or they can tap s to drop back down. It seems rather small a suggestion, but there's some benefits and cons to the people who do it:


PROS
1. In a map with ledges, this could be used for getting a peek at what's coming, rather then simply leaping into the line of fire.
2. Climbing maps could benefit from this in particular, a game of timing the jumps perfect to catch the edge of a poly, etc.
3. In TW maps with little jet, this would work to give the Soldat that extra boost needed while maintaining realism.

CONS
1. By hanging onto the wall, you're opening your Soldat up considerably than if you just stayed grounded. Without letting go of the wall, the Soldat can only aim so far with some weapons (specifically, ones that can be used with one hand), and other weapons are rendered useless without the ability to use both hands.
2. It takes that extra moment to tap w, s, or jet before you can regain full aiming capabilities... those are moments the enemy can use to their advantage.


There are others I could probably come up with for the pros and cons, but off-hand I can't recall some of the other bits I had in mind for this.

I know, it's not a neccesary addition or anything... and with work on the new version, it's doubtful that even if it were a good idea, it would be implemented. However I was curious to see what everyone thought of this, as I thought it might actually, if it WAS implemented, add for just a little extra element that prove to be both useful and fun.

Admittedly, however, this sort of an update would likely only add to particular maps and gamemodes, and not to the game overall. However, I thought it still might be worth airing the idea out

[Zamorak]

Best idea I've heard in a long time. Very nice.

Subtle, yet pretty awesome.

[Blues]

Wow, great idea, I like it alot.

* Blues supports.

[zyxstand]

cons (to idea):
This might get really annoying if you're not intending to hang on to the ledge...  even if there were a certain key (or key combination) to activate hanging, it seems to get rather difficult and useless for the little amount of benefit it supplies.  Soldat is too fast-paced to be bothered by such small (insignificant) features.

I don't support this :/

[NorrisScott]

It doesn't take very long to tap "w" though, considering it's the same button you jump with. Plus, very few people press w in mid-air... they're usually busy pressing a or d to move their Soldat in the air.

Like I said, this would probably benefit the more tactical gamemodes more, yeah... just a small idea. However on a whole I think it could still work, because using it really isn't too difficult, doesn't take much effort (again, simply pressing the jump button while in the air... think of it almost like a double-jump with the support of a ledge, really).

I can see why you wouldn't like it, but I doubt that it would detract from the fast pace of Soldat all that much at all, honestly

[zyxstand]

well u did say it'll render you more or less unable to fire your weapon and it'll also slow you down if you're trying to get down somewhere and accidentally hit a ledge.  Those few deciseconds are ever so valuable on fast-paced servers (ctf and dm especially) everyone'll just hate this feature when they realize that it cost them the match.
So conclusively, the annoying effect that it has is far too much when compared to the small benefits it gives...  sry :/

[iDante]

and it will make current climb maps way too easy -disprove

[NorrisScott]

well u did say it'll render you more or less unable to fire your weapon and it'll also slow you down if you're trying to get down somewhere and accidentally hit a ledge.  Those few deciseconds are ever so valuable on fast-paced servers (ctf and dm especially) everyone'll just hate this feature when they realize that it cost them the match.
So conclusively, the annoying effect that it has is far too much when compared to the small benefits it gives...  sry :/

Don't apologize, I won't get offended if you don't agree with my idea

Also, again, as I said though... you wouldn't grab the ledge unless you press w. Doubtful you'd do that while falling to get down somewhere.

Those who WOULD be using it would likely want to, in all actuality.

[As Always]

Would MM need to rewrite the code for weapons, to tell the game if it is one handed or two? Wouldn't this take a while?

[iDante]

Would MM need to rewrite the code for weapons, to tell the game if it is one handed or two? Wouldn't this take a while?

no, you could just make it so that in this pos certain guns dont shoot but that would annoy me...

[NorrisScott]

Which is exactly why I wouldn't want it to be something that happened automatically, you know? Would be something you could choose to use if you'd like to, but wouldn't have to. It's a subtle change, really... nothing that would hurt to add or not add, nothing that would hurt to not use in-game or use. Just that little bit extra added in.

Plus, if you're on a map that has limited jets, and you run out before you can reach a ledge... would be nice to just grab on and pull yourself up if you wanted to. The choice would always be the player's

[Avarax]

this would ruin all older climb maps ;-(

[Frenchie]

this would ruin all older climb maps ;-(

Not near as much as the backflip has made all old maps easy.

[NorrisScott]

I was gonna mention that, yeah... it'll add a new element to climbing maps if anything, and older ones were just as effected by the backflip

[Sytrus]

I support this, really. A good idea.

[SDFilm]

You play R/S don't you.

for Normal Mode games, I guess it could be a way of saving up more jet while coverd. I'd support this if you can select to do that when you move off a clif, as in, you are being chased and you do are about to run off the polygon but latch onto it instead, then jetting/pulling yourself up when they get close to you.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

Nah, it'd be annoying to accidently catch a ledge, and with jet, you really don't need this.

I suppose it'd be slightly useful for TW or climb, but there'd be polybugs (i.e, what slant would it need to be to catch? Unless you made a LOT of animations, it'd look weird in quite a few cases)

[KingOfPing]

This idea has huge mental retardation. no support.

[Sytrus]

This idea has huge mental retardation. no support.

Could you specify that statement please?

[-Skykanden-]

nice idea

[Killer Queen]

did you get this from super smash bros /meele? seems awfuly similar, lol.

i support, but i think it could be server-side, so as not to mess up climb maps.

~iron man

[Blue-ninja]

Well, what is the point in holding onto a poly that kills you?

[NorrisScott]

This idea has huge mental retardation. no support.

You know, I can take poor feedback... that's fine. It's even better when it's to help improve the idea, or show why it wouldn't work overall.

This though... not so much feedback, as it is flaming. If you're going to do that, at least give some reasons as to why. Because otherwise... I'm pretty sure you'll get yourself in trouble for things like that 

[Blue-ninja]

Norris, I've seen him in S&S (Snipe and Slice) and he sucks at playing the game. Feel better?
He's just saying that to cover up the size of his brain.

[KingOfPing]

Lol*. You guys just dont get my ''huge mental retardation thing'' do you?
Heres a decent reply Norris:
I dont wana be pushing buttons to hang on to a cliff, or automatically for that matter.
Besides this would just be annoying after a while because when youre going for the
enemys flag and you grab on to ledge and then by the time youre off *Respawn time in....*

[Blue-ninja]

That's better.

You don't have to automatically grab onto a ledge, just put it in another key, like 'Q', and move the controls so that they still feel intuitive. Grabbing on ledges saved my life countless times in Super Smash Bros. Melee.

[The Red Guy]

Well, what is the point in holding onto a poly that kills you?

Yeah, this will ruin the fun in climbing maps. I don't see a need in cliff hanging.

[SDFilm]

Lol*. You guys just dont get my ''huge mental retardation thing'' do you?

Giving people unhelpful and immature comments? Ya I get it.

[KingOfPing]

You don't have to automatically grab onto a ledge, just put it in another key, like 'Q', and move the controls so that they still feel intuitive. Grabbing on ledges saved my life countless times in Super Smash Bros. Melee.

It would be okay if it was just an option.

Date Posted: March 17, 2007, 10:48:53 AM

Lol*. You guys just dont get my ''huge mental retardation thing'' do you?

Giving people unhelpful and immature comments? Ya I get it.

Yeah, I dont like immature comments! Now lets go play a bloody
game where they cuss and stuff!

[Blue-ninja]

Umm...yeah. An option that can be turned on/off depending on type of map. If it's a climb map, off. Deathmatch, on.

[Fluffy]

I support. Anybody who objects is gay

[waynechriss]

I like this idea...a lot. It has pros and cons, and it'll benifit greatly when playing. I support this idea fully.

[Princess M]

Cliff hanging in Soldat?! COOL!

[Mr. Domino]

I think this would fall under that "no changes to the PMS map design" clause. There is no way for the game to detect what would be a "stickable" polygon or what qualifies as a ledge when the button is pressed.

Personally, I don't think it'd be useful in a game where most maps have jet packs on its players. Soldat is too fast paced and jet oriented to have much use for grabbing walls, triangle jumped, etc. Plus, I hate the thought of campers scaling the walls high on a map, "grabbing" it, and then sniping from afar in a really difficult to reach location.

[{depth}shaman]

id support it, but that pikachu pisses me off. not really. Yeah. sounds cool. i d think maybe the soldat can only aim down and up at 15 degree angles while hanging. thats fifteen away to the left if the ledge is to the right. COuldn't fire during the pull up to stand up on ledge, and couldn't pullup while firing. unfortunately its probably way to hard to code.

[Blue-ninja]

I think this would fall under that "no changes to the PMS map design" clause. There is no way for the game to detect what would be a "stickable" polygon or what qualifies as a ledge when the button is pressed.

Personally, I don't think it'd be useful in a game where most maps have jet packs on its players. Soldat is too fast paced and jet oriented to have much use for grabbing walls, triangle jumped, etc. Plus, I hate the thought of campers scaling the walls high on a map, "grabbing" it, and then sniping from afar in a really difficult to reach location.

Good point, Domino. Maybe the idea could be used in a infiltration server? These are slower-paced.

[NorrisScott]

I think this would fall under that "no changes to the PMS map design" clause. There is no way for the game to detect what would be a "stickable" polygon or what qualifies as a ledge when the button is pressed.

Well, what I was thinking was actually based off of the way that the ragdoll of the Soldat's corpse reacts when clinging to an edge. You might notice how the Soldat's body just sort of flops off the edge, yet some of them actually dangle by a body part or just simply hang there. I don't know how hard it would be to code something for a living Soldat to mimic the actions of the corpse on a ledge, but that was my initial idea.

[X-Rayz]

I think this'd be cool. I've also got another thing to add to it, how about blind firing. Like firing a gun one handed, no matter what it is. Obviously, your aim would be erratic, but not enough so that people wouldn't even bother with it.

[valion]

i support this idea as its fair and useful. running low on jets, grap hold of a ledge, hold on for a while push off again. whole time your more vulnerable and can only use a secondary realy.
only real downside is trying to implement it without people grapping hold of the ceiling or the ground. plus you might end up with campers clinging onto the back of a building, waiting till someone goes past and emptying a clip into their back (realistic). but as i said i think its good 'cause it allows you a bit more strategy and a bit more movement thourgh out the map

[Deranged Duck]

The biggest problem is the campers. I'd suppose you could make it hurt. I guess It would be good on some maps but not on all. So its just to hard to decide right now.

[NorrisScott]

If there was a way you could time it where, server-side, a cliff-hanging time could be implemented. Hang on for too long and then your Soldat grows too tired and loses grip/falls.

[Blue-ninja]

Ya but then, when your character gets tired and fall off, campers would just simply jet right back up.

[valion]

yah. i still think its a great idea. perhaps you only have about 5 seconds hang time, then you start to take damege cause the players getting tired and their arms are hurting

[Zamorak]

It needs to be kept simple, no "5 second rule".

If you keep it simple, it's easier for MM to implement.

[Mr. Domino]

I think this would fall under that "no changes to the PMS map design" clause. There is no way for the game to detect what would be a "stickable" polygon or what qualifies as a ledge when the button is pressed.

Well, what I was thinking was actually based off of the way that the ragdoll of the Soldat's corpse reacts when clinging to an edge.

The corpses land on ground and only wrap around ledges since they are horizontally prone and limp. They are not "detecting" ledges or any such thing, and that's the problem with the idea. The game does not distinguish polygons from their positioning or size. The only way this would happen is with a map system change which has been stated will never happen.

[Blue-ninja]

Maps are also created by code, and everybody knows that soldiers will be able to grab on 90 degree-angled slopes or lower degree.

[Protoman]

This reminds me of the Megaman X series. You get to hang on walls and jump off of them. Its a nice idea, however in Megaman, you slide down walls. I would enjoy either move.

[mxyzptlk]

Maps are also created by code, and everybody knows that soldiers will be able to grab on 90 degree-angled slopes or lower degree.

Exactly what I was going to say. It wouldn't be that hard.

[Zamorak]

I'm not exactly sure about the map file structure, but I think that the polygons(triangles) are coded bye X/Y/Z in terms of vertices. Also, we know that sometimes polygons overlap, or connect.. That's a fair bit of geometry to have to figure out how to code, even assuming it is possible to get an angle measure.

[valion]

it would be much easier to have a new polygon type. one where touching it casuses you to grap it.

[The Red Guy]

But that would end up modifying the pms format?

[Cpt_Kabs]

i think its a pretty sweet idea but could get annoying

[mxyzptlk]

Maps are created by triangles, the simplest form of geometry. It wouldn't be hard to figure out the distance from a-to-b, from b-to-c, and from c-to-a, and find the angles that way.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

It would only be feasible for a fast-paced game like Soldat on one condition:  Grabbing is automatic and quick.  What do I mean by this?  Don't make it an explicit option for the player.  If the player is jetting and he hits a corner, have him pull himself up automatically.  Otherwise, it's to slow and complicated (considering the pace of Soldat).  Besides, if you're hanging there, you're an easy target, and no one wants to be that.

[Zamorak]

Maps are created by triangles, the simplest form of geometry. It wouldn't be hard to figure out the distance from a-to-b, from b-to-c, and from c-to-a, and find the angles that way.

My point is that this idea would require heavy modification of several things in order for it to work.

[Laser Guy]

Just a small, simple idea that I spent some time thinking on... thought it'd be surprisingly fun to have implemented, but I've no idea how hard it would be to do so, to be honest.

The idea is this:

When a Soldat is in the air, and comes across the edge of a polygon (such as with the shot above at Ash), they could tap the w button to have their Soldat grab onto the edge and hang there, much as corpses do when hooked against a polygon/sliding off of one on a ledge. Then, they can either jet (or if the map doesn't have jets, tap w again) to get up onto the polygon, or they can tap s to drop back down. It seems rather small a suggestion, but there's some benefits and cons to the people who do it:


PROS
1. In a map with ledges, this could be used for getting a peek at what's coming, rather then simply leaping into the line of fire.
2. Climbing maps could benefit from this in particular, a game of timing the jumps perfect to catch the edge of a poly, etc.
3. In TW maps with little jet, this would work to give the Soldat that extra boost needed while maintaining realism.

CONS
1. By hanging onto the wall, you're opening your Soldat up considerably than if you just stayed grounded. Without letting go of the wall, the Soldat can only aim so far with some weapons (specifically, ones that can be used with one hand), and other weapons are rendered useless without the ability to use both hands.
2. It takes that extra moment to tap w, s, or jet before you can regain full aiming capabilities... those are moments the enemy can use to their advantage.


There are others I could probably come up with for the pros and cons, but off-hand I can't recall some of the other bits I had in mind for this.

I know, it's not a neccesary addition or anything... and with work on the new version, it's doubtful that even if it were a good idea, it would be implemented. However I was curious to see what everyone thought of this, as I thought it might actually, if it WAS implemented, add for just a little extra element that prove to be both useful and fun.

Admittedly, however, this sort of an update would likely only add to particular maps and gamemodes, and not to the game overall. However, I thought it still might be worth airing the idea out

I see that not only I changed ctf_Ash a bit, but back to the debate, the walls should be either bade of ice or be slanted in such angle that u will not be able to "hang in there baby"

[DorkeyDear]

BAD idea
think about all the clibm maps that are going to be ruined because of this

[valion]

thats y i think a new polygon type would be the best way to implement this. that way it wont effect the old maps