Official Soldat Forums
Soldat Talk => General Discussions => Topic started by: britchesman88 on August 30, 2007, 01:09:07 am
-
It recently was announced that independent developers will be allowed to post their games on the wii shop channel for download by early next year. Nintendo has decided to make a cheap and open avenue for indie game devs to showcase their wares to all wii owners.
I know that this topic seems to divide many of us and offend some purists, but this is an opportunity for MM to share his creation(s) to a wider audience. Granted there would probably be some changes in the format such as how the modding would work and the way the lobby would function, but it deserves some exploration.
The new firmware update for wii supports usb keyboards and websites like wiicade.com have also had great success creating games that replace the traditional mouse with the wii remote. Many reviewers of the wiimote often liken it to the mouse because it allows for precision and impulse movement. It was also recently discovered that the nintendo has plans for a headset for voip.
I wanted to throw this out for serious discussion and earnest exploration into such a possibility. Again, I'm aware from viewing an earlier topic posted in the lounge that this topic can be very polarizing for many reasons. So if this upsets you please limit the fanboy anti-fanboy and hardcore purist negativity. I am interested to see creative ideas and solutions, but just try to limit the "I hate wii, wii is sh*t", "I love wii so much I want it to have my babies" or "I'm so hardcore that if soldat was on the wii I would personally hunt down anyone playing and shred their wii with my customized Soldat Chainsaw!"
-
"Soldat will never be programmed for portable consoles/machines, or probably even regular gaming consoles (Michal doesn't have the money nor the time to do so, and even then gameplay probably would flop on such systems)"
-
"Soldat will never be programmed for portable consoles/machines, or probably even regular gaming consoles (Michal doesn't have the money nor the time to do so, and even then gameplay probably would flop on such systems)"
We all know that is in the rules, and that's nice, but rules were made to be broken.
I'm sure this thread title probably deterred you or made you want to flame this guy, but he brings many interesting points to the table; and their backed up with evidence and an explanation.
The USB support is awesome, and I think that paired with the open Wii Shop Channel makes a killer combonation. I'm unaware of the price to do this, but I think it would be a good thing for MM to look into.
The only problem I have with this is that I think for the Wii, the game should be made a little more mini-gamish. The Wiimote is not intended for pixel-precise shooting like a mouse is, so I think maybe the people should be bigger or some sort of thing like that.
-
NO!
(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)
→ Soldat will never be programmed for portable consoles/machines, or probably even regular gaming consoles (Michal doesn't have the money nor the time to do so, and even then gameplay probably would flop on such systems)
-
If you want to say no, that's what the poll was for. Please keep your responses constructive. I brought this up for exploration, so try to think outside the "NO!!" and give valid reasoning not gut responses and stale mantra. I understand that it has been stated in the past that MM would not go for this sort of thing, but to close it off like that and refuse to even look at what options are out there is foolish at best. This topic is simply trying to open the door for discussion not slamming. Again if you have an opinion about the topic that's what the poll is for.
-
No because Wii users can aim faster then computer users.
-
As much as I'd love to see Soldat (or a good clone) on the Wii, I doubt anyone will make one. Especially since it was also possible on the DS, which has been out for a while, but nothing has come up.
-
Michal doesn't have the money nor the time to do so
Yeah, Soldat's a PC game not a wii game. But I guess in some ways a wii version of Soldat would be cool.
-
It wouldn't hold the true values of Soldat if it was on the Wii (or any console for that matter). So I say no.
-
No. Not that I have anything against the Wii; just, no. In any case, EnEsCe spelled it out in black and white exactly why not.
-
does the wii use direct x? I don't think so, so no. No soldat for wii or anything else.
-
does the wii use direct x? I don't think so, so no. No soldat for wii or anything else.
DirectX is part of microsoft imperium... Xbox 360 is also part of it. They're rivals. Why would Wii use microsoft's libraries? ;_;
-
does the wii use direct x? I don't think so, so no. No soldat for wii or anything else.
DirectX is part of microsoft imperium... Xbox 360 is also part of it. They're rivals. Why would Wii use microsoft's libraries? ;_;
You just proved my point.
-
Nintendo = programming underdog. Poor them.
-
does the wii use direct x? I don't think so, so no. No soldat for wii or anything else.
DirectX is part of microsoft imperium... Xbox 360 is also part of it. They're rivals. Why would Wii use microsoft's libraries? ;_;
Direct X 7, for internet :)
I wish they would make it for Wii, but no for reasons stated above. O well.
-
The controls certainly would be interesting. But this sadly wouldn't happen :[
Though the Wii would be the best console if Soldat could be played on any gaming console. Joystick + Soldat = difficulty.
-
of course no
Nintendo: douchebag
-
This is just a ridiculous idea. The Wii was designed to make 3-dimensional control easier, but Soldat is just a 2D game. There are just too many things here that are incompatible (not to mention you'll all see more 8-year old gamer noobs, which I think alone an be a game killer).
-
Stupid Idea...
Might aswell say a game lik
N should be on Xbox 360
-
Stupid Idea...
Might aswell say a game lik
N should be on Xbox 360
That's different, N COULD be successfully ported to the Xbox 360.
-
Ok, first off, Wii supports an optional USB keyboard. Now I'll admit it would never happen, but it is plausible to put it on the Wii and I don't understand people being like "No, Nintendo sucks". Fine, put it on Xbox 360, would that help you Carlitos? I think this is a bad idea but half of you are saying no just becuase and not giving a good reason.
-
People who post here are showing how pitiful most gaming communities are when it comes to porting. Gods, when his new game comes out, if mm releases the source code, it may well be fan ported to systems like DS or Wii or even 360, but until then, if the makers don't want to port it, it won't happen. Just wait until the source is released.
-
wii sucks. end of story
-
wii sucks. end of story
This is what I mean, it says right it in the original post not to do that, but they do it anyway. Give reasons people.
-
wii sucks. end of story
You don't know shit about the wii so you should shut the fuck up.
Wii has a great control scheme for anyone who is open minded enough to actually try it.
-
lmao i know about the wii. ive played it. it just doesnt appeal to me. it hard to aim the remote and therefore would cause unstable shots. this would make the game harder and less fun. also the moving would be too hard. and how would you chat?! sure you could use the keyboard, but then couldnt you just play soldat witht the keyboard? kinda defeats the purpose.
soldat only need to be on 1 consle. and the one mm chose was the best..
is that better you two?
edit: also, how the FUCK would you mod it?
-
It wouldn't defeat the purpose to use the keyboard becuase you wouldn't have to use the Wii, but people that would otherwise never hear of the game would. And after they learned it was there, they could mod it on their computer if they wanted. And I don't know about you, but I have 1 computer and 2 siblings, so I have to share the computer, and this would be a way to play the game more.
-
lmao i know about the wii. ive played it. it just doesnt appeal to me. it hard to aim the remote and therefore would cause unstable shots. this would make the game harder and less fun. also the moving would be too hard. and how would you chat?! sure you could use the keyboard, but then couldnt you just play soldat witht the keyboard? kinda defeats the purpose.
soldat only need to be on 1 consle. and the one mm chose was the best..
is that better you two?
Obviously you played it for about ten minutes or you have epilepsy. The wiimote is as close to a mouse as you can get on a console. I can't wait to frag idiots like you who can't learn the controller.
-
I don't think it will ever happen because Soldat was made for PC and its in the rules. Plus I think it would be dumb to put it on the Wii. Nintendo would probably just change everything.
-
Man, the problem is that more than half of you didn't even read the whole side of the arguement. You just saw the title, and bashed it. YOU guys are the douches.
You instantly bash it without even really defending your side of the arguement.
-
Man, the problem is that more than half of you didn't even read the whole side of the arguement. You just saw the title, and bashed it. YOU guys are the douches.
You instantly bash it without even really defending your side of the arguement.
Exactly.
And again, I point to my argument:
People who post here are showing how pitiful most gaming communities are when it comes to porting. Gods, when his new game comes out, if mm releases the source code, it may well be fan ported to systems like DS or Wii or even 360, but until then, if the makers don't want to port it, it won't happen. Just wait until the source is released.
If you think the wii sucks, don't get the port. Simple as that. If you don't like a console, don't play it. We can't change your opinion.
-
Well, as previously mentioned, Soldat's closed source will not be ported to any OS/consoles other than Windows because of the DirectX dealy.
But, if Soldat ever was to be ported to a system not using the keyboard and mouse, the Wii would probably be the best choice. I'm not too sure how the controls would work, but the motion sensitive control would allow you to move the cursor pretty easily, if the cursor isn't simply controlled by the controller.
Does anyone know of any 2D games which use the Wii controller? Other than the small flash things?
-
No, I can't think of any, but it is a good idea: wiimote controls the cursor and the nunchuk stick moves, nunchuk movement up would jet, (A) would throw nades and (B) would reload.
-
I don't post much, But had to on this....F11 :)
IMO, They would have a unfair advantage in some aspects, And it would never happen :D
-
I don't post much, But had to on this....F11 :)
IMO, They would have a unfair advantage in some aspects, And it would never happen :D
Who said it would run on the same servers as soldat pc?
Of course people playing on the wii would have slight advantages, but they wouldn't play toghether, so it doesn't matter. Or, if they do play together, the Wii controls will be balanced.
-
Man, the problem is that more than half of you didn't even read the whole side of the argument. You just saw the title, and bashed it. YOU guys are the douches.
You instantly bash it without even really defending your side of the argument.
Well I'm pretty sure people get annoyed when someone posts something that is against the rules and will never even happen. Whats the point of discussing it if it never is going to happen.
-
lmao i know about the wii. ive played it. it just doesnt appeal to me. it hard to aim the remote and therefore would cause unstable shots. this would make the game harder and less fun. also the moving would be too hard. and how would you chat?! sure you could use the keyboard, but then couldnt you just play soldat witht the keyboard? kinda defeats the purpose.
soldat only need to be on 1 consle. and the one mm chose was the best..
is that better you two?
Obviously you played it for about ten minutes or you have epilepsy. The wiimote is as close to a mouse as you can get on a console. I can't wait to frag idiots like you who can't learn the controller.
are you kidding??! its impossible to keep that retarded controller still. sniping would die. your cursor would slip around and youd miss your shot every time. when using other weapons, you would spray alot more than normal.
-
lmao i know about the wii. ive played it. it just doesnt appeal to me. it hard to aim the remote and therefore would cause unstable shots. this would make the game harder and less fun. also the moving would be too hard. and how would you chat?! sure you could use the keyboard, but then couldnt you just play soldat witht the keyboard? kinda defeats the purpose.
soldat only need to be on 1 consle. and the one mm chose was the best..
is that better you two?
Obviously you played it for about ten minutes or you have epilepsy. The wiimote is as close to a mouse as you can get on a console. I can't wait to frag idiots like you who can't learn the controller.
are you kidding??! its impossible to keep that retarded controller still. sniping would die. your cursor would slip around and youd miss your shot every time. when using other weapons, you would spray alot more than normal.
If that's what happens, your wiimote is probably not calibrated right.
Date Posted: August 30, 2007, 07:56:25 PM
Man, the problem is that more than half of you didn't even read the whole side of the argument. You just saw the title, and bashed it. YOU guys are the douches.
You instantly bash it without even really defending your side of the argument.
Well I'm pretty sure people get annoyed when someone posts something that is against the rules and will never even happen. Whats the point of discussing it if it never is going to happen.
It's not that it will never happen, It'll just never happen officially.
-
Well, like I said, I'm fairly certain Wii has directx 7 becuase of the online capability so you can go to like miniclip and play games and go to youtube for movies and stuff. It is possible, it just would probably never happen when MM has better things to worry about, like fixing existing problems.
-
What does directX 7 have to do with online capabilities and playing videos on youtube? I can go online on Linux and play youtube videos there, but I'm pretty sure that my Linux doesn't have directX 7 installed. So just stop talking about things you don't understand.
Also, I think that porting soldat to Wii is a great idea, since you have the remote for aiming. It should be fun after some practise.
-
I'm gonna say no on this because, the fact MM said he wasn't going to and that the transfer from PC to the Wii would probably change a lot of things that make soldat...soldat. I voted the if done carefully because if they carefully make it as to not lose the feel of soldat and style of it i would probably play.
on a side not flaming = bad and theres a lot here so it probably would be best to tone it down....
-
I'm gonna say no on this because, the fact MM said he wasn't going to and that the transfer from PC to the Wii would probably change a lot of things that make soldat...soldat. I voted the if done carefully because if they carefully make it as to not lose the feel of soldat and style of it i would probably play.
on a side not flaming = bad and theres a lot here so it probably would be best to tone it down....
As I've said, if there is a port, It'll probably be a fan port, not an official port.
-
lmao i know about the wii. ive played it. it just doesnt appeal to me. it hard to aim the remote and therefore would cause unstable shots. this would make the game harder and less fun. also the moving would be too hard. and how would you chat?! sure you could use the keyboard, but then couldnt you just play soldat witht the keyboard? kinda defeats the purpose.
soldat only need to be on 1 consle. and the one mm chose was the best..
is that better you two?
Obviously you played it for about ten minutes or you have epilepsy. The wiimote is as close to a mouse as you can get on a console. I can't wait to frag idiots like you who can't learn the controller.
are you kidding??! its impossible to keep that retarded controller still. sniping would die. your cursor would slip around and youd miss your shot every time. when using other weapons, you would spray alot more than normal.
AHHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
AHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHA
AHHAHAHAHA
Oh wait, You were serious...
AHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!1!!1
-
Rofl 4-year-old. I agree, it isn't very hard, unless you had your arm straight out as opposed to in your lap, and even straight out... To mean this seems as more of actually taking the time to getting it to the Wii than actual technical issues, which means in the end it won't happen becuase I for one won't take the time to do it, and most people won't. And people who will and have the skill to do it are doing other things.
-
If it would help some of you get by your hangups and gut responses maybe I should ask for input on how to best create a game in the Soldat style(much like Soldat is to Worms and Liero). Yet, I will restate that it would be unwise not to probe into the possibility of soldat being made available to wii owners. I'm sure when the "no-console" rule was made it was in reference to a port for a PS2 style console where Soldat would be simply not possible to do.
I'm also not asking whether or not anyone likes the idea. What I'm trying to do is get some talk about how it would be done correctly using the hardware and support the wii offers.
If I may I would also bring up some new information that would possibly generate more creative talk. In addition to the wiimote, nunchuck, headset(voip), and keyboard, nintendo also has a zapper shell due out this fall which increases your ability to be precise because of two hand control. (submachine gun style). It's also been discovered that the new balance board is being looked at by fps devs to control the movement (left analog stick) while sitting or standing. With all this unique technology there should be a good way to give fans of soldat a new way to play on the wii.
-
If the wii has directX, or an equivalent, it/xm/wav/mp3 support, and a language not too dissimilar to c++ or similar languages, then it is very possible.
Britches, what you said about the Zapper and balance board: It is possible that you could use the zapper, because the thumbstick is on the back, and you could still use that to move around, I'm not sure how the balance board would work. I'm not sure if the Wii allows two seperate peripherals that require motion sensing to work on the same player.
My suggested set-up for simple wiimote:
wiimote move - aim
wiimote A - nade
wiimote b - reload
wiimote > dpad - switch weapons
wiimote < dpad - switch weapons
wiimote ^ dpad - freecam while dead
wiimote trigger - fire
nunchuk thumbstick - move
nunchuk move up - jet
nunchuk move down - prone
nunchuk thrust - throw weapon
A few more commands, but I covered most of them.
-
I'm also not asking whether or not anyone likes the idea. What I'm trying to do is get some talk about how it would be done correctly using the hardware...
Sorry man, I'm not that savvy with this stuff. I'm sure one of the bigger rollers can handle that area of it though.
...With all this unique technology there should be a good way to give fans of soldat a new way to play on the wii.
And most of the people who said no, are looking for an identical/near-identical experience for the Wii. I said in my second post that it would probably have to be modified slightly to compensate for the Wii, and I think that wouldn't hurt it a bit.
Also, I forgot who said this, but someone said "the no porting rule" was made and was referring to consoles like the PS2, where porting was extremely difficult, if not impossible. And I think that is true. Again, a rule isn't a rule unless it can be broken; otherwise it's an absolute.
-
mxyzptlk,
not a bad start for the control scheme. Maybe Z button for jet because it's an on/off action. reload could be done with A primary secondary switch could be done with a vertical motion of the wiimote in the same fashion of the soldat animation. I like the nade toss with the nunchuck. The c button could go for crouch and the minus button could zoom the sniper instead of dragging to the end of the screen.
Another thing, in the wii fit trailer it showed a wii remote and a balance board. Although not used by the same person in this instance, it seems to be at the discretion of the software software and not limited be the wii hardware so using two at once should not present a problem.
jbigz,
I posted this to here from people like you who think about topics before busting out the anger sword. Thanks for your input and backing up the meaning behind the "no porting rule."
Here's some stuff that's been banging around my head.
I wonder if splitscreen would be an option for offline play.
Wouldn't it be sick if your mii character could be used for your player as an option. Wow, if that was possible I could go against a zombie army of ex-girlfriends... almost got off-topic there.
What about minigames like sniper target practice or how many zombies can you kill in 2 minutes.
Anybody else have ideas like that?
-
Z is on the nunchuk, right? I have to be honest, I've never played the wii yet, but I see the potential.
Ok, improved setup:
wiimote move - aim
wiimote A - reload
wiimote b - fire
wiimote - - zoom/unzoom sniper
wiimote + - Prone
wiimote ^ dpad - freecam while dead
wiimote trigger - fire
wiimote move up - switch weapons
wiimote 1 - show/hide score board
nunchuk thumbstick - move
nunchuk Z - jet
nunchuk throw move - grenade
nunchuk move down - prone
nunchuk thrust - throw weapon
Balance board move directions(if possible) - move
The board is still sketchy, though; it hasn't come out yet, and people still don't know how it will work.
-
Great breakdown. The only thing I would change is have the - button on the wiimote toggle scope to simplify things a little and utilize the c button on the nunchuck to throw weapon so you don't accidentally throw your ak when you want to chuck a nade. in the same vein it might be good to make the + on the wiimote control prone and stand.
Your right about the board, it's still to soon to speculate too much about the role it could play.
-
NO!
(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)(http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/766/emotsirenta8.gif)
→ Soldat will never be programmed for portable consoles/machines, or probably even regular gaming consoles (Michal doesn't have the money nor the time to do so, and even then gameplay probably would flop on such systems)
Ditto.
-
I dunno, I still think that nunchuk down should be prone, because that is so much more natural, same as the thrust.
Besides, in the grenade toss, the controller would be horizontal while in the thrust and the down, it would be forward.
Anyway, the controls would be changable. If people found that they were chucking their gun while trying to throw a nade, they could just change the controls.
@ghg: Way to troll a productive conversation.
-
I think if the controls were fine tuned the nunchuck would feel pretty nice. but the c button could be held for one of the controls to prevent unwanted gun chucking or tossing grenades at your feet while trying to knife a sniper at range.
@mxyzptlk: at least ghg took the time to come up with an original moron statement... Wait a minute...
-
Ok, can you give me a picture of how the nunchuk is set up? I can't find an image on google images, or anywhere else.
-
http://wii.nintendo.com/controller.jsp
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/116/311344083_8d0f5dfe9c_m.jpg)
that should give you a better idea.
-
lol, B is the trigger.
-
Productive? If MM makes Soldat work specifically on Wii Fit hardware, like you suggested, then I'll eat my non-existent hat.
-
I used a modified xbox controller and set it everything up to run with soldat....left stick movement(and d-pad), right stick aiming....it was hard as hell. The aiming was not very precise, recoil made adjusting aim incredibly hard, etc. Soldat was made for the preciseness and ease of a mouse+keyboard....
-
Productive? If MM makes Soldat work specifically on Wii Fit hardware, like you suggested, then I'll eat my non-existent hat.
How many fuggin times do they have to say it'll be a fan port if at all? This is a discussion of what it MIGHT be should that happen.
I used a modified xbox controller and set it everything up to run with soldat....left stick movement(and d-pad), right stick aiming....it was hard as hell. The aiming was not very precise, recoil made adjusting aim incredibly hard, etc. Soldat was made for the preciseness and ease of a mouse+keyboard....
Gee, that might explain why they suggested the Wii instead...
-
I used a modified xbox controller and set it everything up to run with soldat....left stick movement(and d-pad), right stick aiming....it was hard as hell. The aiming was not very precise, recoil made adjusting aim incredibly hard, etc. Soldat was made for the preciseness and ease of a mouse+keyboard....
Gee, that might explain why they suggested the Wii instead...
The Wii controllers are even less precise then the xbox.....
-
Apples to oranges; they're two completely different controller setups. How did you even get on the subject of Xbox?
-
I used a modified xbox controller and set it everything up to run with soldat....left stick movement(and d-pad), right stick aiming....it was hard as hell. The aiming was not very precise, recoil made adjusting aim incredibly hard, etc. Soldat was made for the preciseness and ease of a mouse+keyboard....
Gee, that might explain why they suggested the Wii instead...
The Wii controllers are even less precise then the xbox.....
What are you talking about? Could you be more wrong?
-
Lol that's one productive discussion.
Look how many people have PC and what fraction of them plays soldat. Now think about the people who have Wii and how many of them would play some random fan port of an unpopular 2D game =/
And you need to consider that most people don't stick with one game for a long time (especially the console people).
And to actually play the port properly every player would need the headset (otherwise the team games would make no sence - ever heard of taunts like "efc mid" or "inc up"?). Yeah and imagine the polish guys swearing at you all the time...
So imo this conversation is pointless unless you like to dream about your ideas.
I could also suggest discussing the possibilities of using a plastic bottle as a mousepad. Great potential there.
-
Lol that's one productive discussion.
Look how many people have PC and what fraction of them plays soldat. Now think about the people who have Wii and how many of them would play some random fan port of an unpopular 2D game =/
And you need to consider that most people don't stick with one game for a long time (especially the console people).
And to actually play the port properly every player would need the headset (otherwise the team games would make no sence - ever heard of taunts like "efc mid" or "inc up"?). Yeah and imagine the polish guys swearing at you all the time...
1. Wii will have a Channel called Wiiware, where indie developers will be able to put up their "official homebrew" I guess you could say. Since the Wii has such a focused audience, anyone who has one will most likely check out the games on that channel, and if a Soldat clone is made quickly enough, it'll be one of the first and most popular games from the channel. Therefore it can easily reach a wider audience than Soldat on PC.
2. People will stick to whatever game they want, regardless of platform. Why do you think people still have an SNES or NES lying around? Why do you think they even bother making emulators? So they can play the old games. in fact, I'd go as far as to say that console people will stick to their games more than PC players (even if it is in a Fanboyistic way).
3. I'm not sure if it was ever confirmed, but supposedly the Wiimote has a mic built in. Therefore you wouldn't need a headset. I'm sure it the voice part of the game would be customizable to either be voice activated or by button, ala Teamspeak. That way you can point at the screen and not use the Wiimote as a phone. :P
Also:
Anyone who thinks there's some sort of DirectX on the Wii just needs to get out of this conversation. Seriously.
EVERYONE already knows that Soldat will not be "ported" by MM to anything. Stop bringing that up as if we were some ignorant dreamers drooling for Soldat on a console. It will either be a clone of Soldat, or it will be a difficult port made by someone ELSE once the source code is released.
Lastly, aiming isn't impossible on the Wii. It just takes some getting used to. Red Steel is fairly easy to get used to, and I hear Metroid Prime 3 shows you the way it should be done. Even if its in 2D there are probably many ways to help the noobs out in their aiming. Just because YOU suck at aiming doesn't mean the Wii isn't capable of it. That's a general statement for anyone who mentions Wii aiming, and not directed at any one person.