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Soldat Talk => Weapon Balance Discussion => Topic started by: Traciatim on July 23, 2006, 03:26:47 pm

Title: Gun Balance
Post by: Traciatim on July 23, 2006, 03:26:47 pm
It would be nice if the guns balanced out al ittle bit better so that each one was used more, taking the stats off of u13's servers take a look:

M79                477,840
Grenade         389,217
Barret M82A1 324,153
Ruger 77        159,256
Steyr AUG      122,786
HK MP5          120,977
Spas-12         120,861
Ak-74             119,583
Desert Eagles 117,218
Combat Knife    66,145
USSOCOM         52,140
LAW                 47,358
FN Minimi         45,042
Hands              32,024
Chainsaw        23,552
XM214 Minigun 17,483

Listed is the number of kills made by eachy weapon. Also take in to consideration that usually the top killers in the game don't use a barret or M79 making the amount of use of these weapons far outweighing the other guns.

It's just sad that you can be playing games of 4 v 4 or even 6 v 6 and sometime not even see another gun except my Spas and the M79 and Barret.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: The Geologist on July 23, 2006, 03:33:52 pm
The popularity of a gun doesn't necessarily relate to things being out of balance.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Pyroguy on July 23, 2006, 03:37:24 pm
Well, that is the number ok kills, not popularity. What someone should do is find the kills of a weapon and divide it by popularity. Then you will get a real feel for its balance.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Will on July 23, 2006, 03:39:45 pm
I cant believe that Socom is more popular than Minimi!!!!!
Also I agree with the geologist because that would suggest that grenades are out of balance too.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: The Geologist on July 23, 2006, 03:41:12 pm
What someone should do is find the kills of a weapon and divide it by popularity.

What does this even mean?  Divide by the popularity?  Do you mean the number of people using those guns?

Look, people like one hit weapons...it takes a while to get into using the autos, and I'm guessing that a lot of the people stuck using the barret/m79 do so because they not only enjoy it, but because they aren't proficient enough with autos/other guns to make decent use out of 'em.  Who wants to play a game they suck at?


Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: a-4-year-old on July 23, 2006, 03:57:27 pm
when you know you are getting better, it is encouraging to keep playing a game you suck at.

grinades are unpredictable, on a laggy server, they may do no damage at all and on u13 they can be 1hit kills.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Pyroguy on July 23, 2006, 06:48:34 pm
Erm, I am saying, you divide how many kills a weapons gets by how much people have used it. That way you get kills independent of popularity (less people means a lower quotient which means a higher end result). That way you can see if a weapon is unbalanced, at least killing wise.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: a-4-year-old on July 23, 2006, 07:11:12 pm
ok... although nobody would ever bother to do that, many people already think that the m79 is unbalanced, I am one of them.

This topic needs to be locked now, there is no idea here, there is only some numbers that don't really mean anything and someone telling me shit i already know.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Traciatim on July 24, 2006, 10:51:42 pm
There is an idea, if you would take the time and read the post., The guns need balancing. The grenades show higher because everyone has them. The secondaries don't really count either, thoug they could be together in their own category too.

The top killers of the game usually are NOT the barretard or the newb (m79) which makes them used over and above what the numbers even show here.

Just look around on the servers, you see in a 12 v 12 game you will see around 18 m79's and barrets, and a mixture of others. The point is they kill far too fast, reload way to quick making them a far better choice over any of the other weapons, and it needs to change.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: BooBoo McBad on July 25, 2006, 06:51:16 pm
WRONG. It's not overpowered, it just becomes a problem when every player uses it. Don't like it? Use a weapon, kill them with it alot, and they will try other weapons to counter you.

The only weapon I feel is nerfed is the HK MP5.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Stalky on July 25, 2006, 07:11:09 pm
Moved to Weapons Balance Discussion. Please read forum rules in future, before you post.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Twistkill on July 25, 2006, 07:58:05 pm
Traciatim: They're not over-powered just because everyone uses them! Have you even tried using the barrett? It has a delay, a start-up time, and a moving aim penalty. Plus, ONE bullet hit from any other gun binks you, so you can miss even if you're at close range. Although, the M79 is annoying.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Traciatim on July 26, 2006, 08:57:40 am
Quote
Use a weapon, kill them with it alot, and they will try other weapons to counter you.


I do, I almost exclusivly use the Spas. Look at my stats from when I play on the public CTF on U13. I've made myself a rule that I will never use the M79 unless I pick it up from another player. I've been playing like that for months. Problem is one outr of every 1.1 players has the M79 in hand when they die.

Quote
They're not over-powered just because everyone uses them!

I disagree. The only reason everyone uses them is because they have huge advantages over all other weapons from being overpowered. Everyone knows it so they all use them.

SUre, if your playing on a map with say.... 150 other people, their delays make sense. With 8 v 8 though there is almost always enough time to reload between people making them far too over powered.



P.S. I realize you can't have 150 people.... THAT'S THE POINT. It seems like every single post I put somone has some small remark that discounts it based on my typing, some ommission, or is completely useless.

Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Mr. Domino on July 26, 2006, 09:21:55 am
With 8 v 8 though there is almost always enough time to reload between people making them far too over powered.

You try taking on eight people with a single M79. :P Seriously though, it is a balanced weapon, but CTF by design tends to cater to the weapon's strengths by getting enemies to run into range, and the bugs/lag which allow for expanded hit radius and kamikaze kills without selfkill do make it overpowered.

Funny how "Gun Balance" becomes another M79 thread. :)
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Twistkill on July 26, 2006, 09:57:22 am
Quote
Use a weapon, kill them with it alot, and they will try other weapons to counter you.


I do, I almost exclusivly use the Spas. Look at my stats from when I play on the public CTF on U13. I've made myself a rule that I will never use the M79 unless I pick it up from another player. I've been playing like that for months. Problem is one outr of every 1.1 players has the M79 in hand when they die.

Quote
They're not over-powered just because everyone uses them!

I disagree. The only reason everyone uses them is because they have huge advantages over all other weapons from being overpowered. Everyone knows it so they all use them.
No, no, no. It may seem that way, but trust me, it's because they actually know how to use them. Except for the m79. :P Barrett doesn't have that big of an advantage because there are many things to balance it out. Why don't you try actually using the weapon in a match, then come back and tell me that it's not easy. -_- Just because many people use a weapon doesn't mean it's over-powered, they realize that it's a good weapon that is harder to master.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: -Vis- on July 26, 2006, 10:28:43 am
I tried the barret on u13 INF yesterday... I was killing everyone with it for a minute or two... then I died and switched weapons. I'm not saying it's overpowered though. But it's certainly not as hard to use as people make out, unless you're above or below someone, then it's a bit harder.

I disagree. The only reason everyone uses them is because they have huge advantages over all other weapons from being overpowered. Everyone knows it so they all use them.
No, no, no. It may seem that way, but trust me, it's because they actually know how to use them.

That, in many cases, is complete balderdash. People often switch to m79 and barret because other people are using them (Because it's EASIER TO KILL). That's why the games end up being one-hit kill fests. That happened in at least 2 servers I played on yesterday. When I went in, a couple of barrets, couple of m79s, a few autos, my spas.... and after about 6 rounds, all barrets.
  Most of the time I stick to Spas/Steyr, but occasionally I switch to the barret for a bit if I'm the only person not using one. I get tired of my head bouncing around all over the map.  :-[

One other thing I noticed... everyone says that the barret is hard to use because of bink from autos. The weird thing is, I agree when I'm using the weapon, but when I try to bink barreters (usually with the Steyr), they always manage to still hit me, even after a few hits. Is bink predictable or something?
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Twistkill on July 26, 2006, 12:45:38 pm
I tried the barret on u13 INF yesterday... I was killing everyone with it for a minute or two... then I died and switched weapons. I'm not saying it's overpowered though. But it's certainly not as hard to use as people make out, unless you're above or below someone, then it's a bit harder.

I disagree. The only reason everyone uses them is because they have huge advantages over all other weapons from being overpowered. Everyone knows it so they all use them.
No, no, no. It may seem that way, but trust me, it's because they actually know how to use them.

That, in many cases, is complete balderdash. People often switch to m79 and barret because other people are using them (Because it's EASIER TO KILL). That's why the games end up being one-hit kill fests. That happened in at least 2 servers I played on yesterday. When I went in, a couple of barrets, couple of m79s, a few autos, my spas.... and after about 6 rounds, all barrets.
  Most of the time I stick to Spas/Steyr, but occasionally I switch to the barret for a bit if I'm the only person not using one. I get tired of my head bouncing around all over the map.  :-[

One other thing I noticed... everyone says that the barret is hard to use because of bink from autos. The weird thing is, I agree when I'm using the weapon, but when I try to bink barreters (usually with the Steyr), they always manage to still hit me, even after a few hits. Is bink predictable or something?
Bink is not predictable. They still hit you because bink makes the bullets fire in more random directions, but one bullet may strill be able to fire straight.

And yes, it's not *really* hard to use, but it certainly requires more practice than other weapons.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Mr. Domino on July 26, 2006, 01:27:55 pm
And yes, it's not *really* hard to use, but it certainly requires more practice than other weapons.

Not really. Camping is as easy as ever. Being an active Barreter just requires learning to prone before shooting to correct selfbink, which isn't that hard at all to adjust to. The speed, accuracy, and power of the bullet almost guarantees a kill, and it remains pretty much a point-and-click weapon from all ranges. At least the M79 does require speed and arc knowledge to hit mid to long range targets.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: 5th_account on July 26, 2006, 01:30:02 pm
Once binked, I reckon there's still a 33% chance that the bullet will fly as intended... Same goes for selfbink, and it's an ugly system because there's only 3 bullet routes, instead of the infinite one would expect with randomness.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Twistkill on July 28, 2006, 09:10:35 am
And yes, it's not *really* hard to use, but it certainly requires more practice than other weapons.

Not really. Camping is as easy as ever. Being an active Barreter just requires learning to prone before shooting to correct selfbink, which isn't that hard at all to adjust to. The speed, accuracy, and power of the bullet almost guarantees a kill, and it remains pretty much a point-and-click weapon from all ranges. At least the M79 does require speed and arc knowledge to hit mid to long range targets.
Yes, but even then, you can still miss because of the movement aim penalty while you're flying in the air, and when you miss against an auto user, you're pretty much fucked. And btw, there is an arc to the Barrett bullet. Albeit a relatively small arc, but it's there nonetheless. It only works well in really large maps because of that.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Mr. Domino on July 28, 2006, 09:27:30 am
Yes, but even then, you can still miss because of the movement aim penalty while you're flying in the air, and when you miss against an auto user, you're pretty much ****ed.

The same goes for the M79. Also, the movement penalty for the Barret is negated by proning. There definitely is a bit more setup into using the Barret with loading a shot and having to prone, but it still provides an instant kill with far greater range and speed than the M79. Plus, you can use the Barret when surrounded by teammates or camping near crates and other structures without risk of self damage/kill.

And btw, there is an arc to the Barrett bullet. Albeit a relatively small arc, but it's there nonetheless. It only works well in really large maps because of that.

Yeah, but the arc doesn't really come into play unless you're looking to cross the map with the bullet. For most encounters within a screen/screen-and-a-half view, the Barret offers the best accuracy next to the Ruger.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Twistkill on July 28, 2006, 01:50:58 pm
Even while proning, the shot can still miss if you're moving quickly. The M79 reloads faster, has no bink, start-up time, or delay, and it has a unique arc that allows it to be aimed into tunnels at weird angles. it's short-range for a reason. No one uses it at long-range, because it's a short-range weapon. The Barrett is a long-range weapon, so obviously in maps like Nuubia or Snakebite, the Barrett doesn't fare as well. All weapons are good for a certain situation, and that is the main reason for different weapons. If every weapon could be balanced on every single situation, there would be no purpose on having different weapons in the first place. The Barrett does have greater speed and range, but there are several things that balance it that other guns don't have.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: {LAW} Gamer_2k4 on August 01, 2006, 09:32:45 am
The only weapon I feel is nerfed is the HK MP5.

I have to completely disagree with you here.  On small maps the MP5 owns.  It fires incredibly fast and kills just as quickly.  On ctf_death, ctf_nuubia, arena2, and other small maps, the MP5 is arguably the best weapon you can have.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: NinjaXrage on August 04, 2006, 06:20:34 pm
Quote
I cant believe that Socom is more popular than Minimi!!!!!

Thats cause minimi looks ugly!
Go socom!
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: The_Teacher on August 12, 2006, 01:00:34 pm
Nice seeing the numbers, but I really don't blive they mean anything^^ Okay, so the m79 is top dog. It's still one of the easiest guns to fight.

I'm not saying that can''t be killed by it, but if you actually fight the enemy, it's pretty easy to get out unscratched.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: {LAW} Gamer_2k4 on August 14, 2006, 09:47:08 am
I would say the m79 is one of the hardest weapons for newbies to avoid.  When you play against autoers you can run right at them, since you'll probably take some damage and keep going.  Suddenly an m79er appears, and you unconsciously use the same strategy.  Only this time, the first shot that you take kills you.

Of course, you have the same situation when you're going up against a barret user.  You're running past him like you would an autoer, because you're used to being able to take 5 or 10 shots without dying.  Suddenly his first shot takes you out.

The problem is, people aren't flexible.  They tend to use the same strategy no matter what the situation is.  They will use their short range automatic, even though the other team uses only m79s.  They will use their m79s, even though the other team only uses barrets.  Many people will not choose the simple solution of using a ruger against an m79 or and AK-74 against a barret.

Over time, I've learned to dodge shortly after a barret user appears, to account for his startup time.  I've also learn to adjust my movements to stay out of the effective range of an m79er.  Unfortunately, many players approach the m79 like a normal weapon, and suffer accordingly.

The m79 accounts for most of the kills because it's easy for new players to use, simple of experienced players to keep using, and hard for inexperienced people to dodge.  It's not overpowered (you can kill two people with the ruger in the time it takes to kill one person with the m79); it's just popular.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Death MachineX350 on August 19, 2006, 11:45:54 am
Quote
I cant believe that Socom is more popular than Minimi!!!!!

Thats cause minimi looks ugly!
Go socom!
The minimi does look ugly that's why there are weapon mods. My minimi looks beautiful now!
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: a-4-year-old on August 19, 2006, 12:10:02 pm
overpowered (you can kill two people with the ruger in the time it takes to kill one person with the m79); it's just popular.
WRONG!
m79 is instant death, while a ruger needs 2-3 shots per person if they hit.

many maps are made for the m79, like the curves into the bases low on nuubia are the arch of an m79 perfectly, and maps like ash where a ruger would have to be way too close to an m79 it explodes.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: {LAW} Gamer_2k4 on August 20, 2006, 03:53:50 am
overpowered (you can kill two people with the ruger in the time it takes to kill one person with the m79); it's just popular.
WRONG!
m79 is instant death, while a ruger needs 2-3 shots per person if they hit.

I understand that.

M79: 1 instant kill (1 shot), then reload
Ruger: 2 kills (4 shots), then reload

The default fire interval for the ruger is 40.  The reload for the m79 is 180.  In other words, you can fire four ruger shots (160) before the m79 is ready to fire a second shot (180).  Therefore, you can kill two people with the ruger in the time it takes you to kill one person with the m79.  A better way of saying it may have been "you can kill two people with the ruger before you can kill two people with the m79."
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: 5th_account on August 20, 2006, 04:32:18 am
But you can kill one person faster with M79 than ruger, and if you just got the shortest break you'd have time to reload the M79. Statistically you're gonna get gangbanged anyway if it's a 1v2.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Bgretydews on August 20, 2006, 05:38:17 am
overpowered (you can kill two people with the ruger in the time it takes to kill one person with the m79); it's just popular.
WRONG!
m79 is instant death, while a ruger needs 2-3 shots per person if they hit.

I understand that.

M79: 1 instant kill (1 shot), then reload
Ruger: 2 kills (4 shots), then reload

The default fire interval for the ruger is 40.  The reload for the m79 is 180.  In other words, you can fire four ruger shots (160) before the m79 is ready to fire a second shot (180).  Therefore, you can kill two people with the ruger in the time it takes you to kill one person with the m79.  A better way of saying it may have been "you can kill two people with the ruger before you can kill two people with the m79."

Your wrong the only advantage ruger has in that sence is if you have just spwaned,
Think about it you shoot with m79 and start reloading after the ruger has shot 4 shots your ready to fire again so its 2 m79 shots in 4 ruger shots, with only 20 tick differance and shooting 4 bullets are mor elikely to miss/legshot that shooting 2 m79 bullets
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: {LAW} Gamer_2k4 on August 20, 2006, 07:31:47 pm
Your wrong the only advantage ruger has in that sence is if you have just spwaned,
Think about it you shoot with m79 and start reloading after the ruger has shot 4 shots your ready to fire again so its 2 m79 shots in 4 ruger shots, with only 20 tick differance and shooting 4 bullets are mor elikely to miss/legshot that shooting 2 m79 bullets

First of all, I never said that you would always get two kills with the ruger to one with the m79.  I just said it was possible.

Secondly, four bullets are more likely to miss than two bullets?  I fail to see the logic in that.  Assuming similar skill with the respective weapons, they should each have the same miss rate.

If you look at the weapons.ini file, you'll see that it takes 186 ticks for the m79 to complete a firing (one shot, one kill).  It takes 260 ticks for the ruger to complete a firing (four shots, two kills).  An m79 requires 372 ticks before it can make a third kill.  A ruger can make three kills in 340 ticks  (160 for clip, 100 for reload, 80 for next two shots).  This advantage increases as more shots are fired.  Five firings for the ruger (10 kills) take 1300 ticks.  Ten firings for the m79 (10 kills) take 1860 ticks.  Let's say you only get leg shots, so every kill takes three hits for the ruger (still one for the m79).  After three firings with the ruger (780 ticks), you get four kills.  After four firings with the m79 (744 ticks), you also get four kills.  So yes, if you always hit with the m79 and only sometimes hit with the ruger, the m79 is slightly better.  However, even m79ers don't hit every time.

Anyway, there's the math behind Soldat ;).  Let me know if you see any errors with it.

Speaking of big numbers, this is my 100th post! W00t!
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: MofoNofo on August 21, 2006, 08:38:06 am
Nothing wrong with the M79, just the Barrett and LAW got a start-up time, it's them we must fix up. last version would you have complained about m79, compared to a barrett? Remember being called Barretard? Doesnt happen anymore. By weakening 1(barrett) or 2(law) weapons out of 3 of the strongest weapons in-game, ofcourse the 3rd (m79) will have an advantage. But it was never given that advantage instead, the other weapons have had their advantages stripped.

Only solution: either start-up on all 3, or none at all, then add alot of bink to all 3.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Mr. Domino on August 21, 2006, 09:26:51 am
But it was never given that advantage instead, the other weapons have had their advantages stripped.

Huh? Barret still is the fastest shot in the game, covers the most ground, is the steadiest aim and most accurate, and still kills on impact. Same with the LAW. The delay has hardly stripped them of any advantage, and in the Barret's case is largely a non-factor. M79 can't have delay since it'll ruin rocket jumping, and having a delay on what still is a short range weapon on top of that existing long reload is just ridiculous.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Twistkill on August 21, 2006, 10:09:43 am
But it was never given that advantage instead, the other weapons have had their advantages stripped.

Huh? Barret still is the fastest shot in the game, covers the most ground, is the steadiest aim and most accurate, and still kills on impact. Same with the LAW. The delay has hardly stripped them of any advantage, and in the Barret's case is largely a non-factor. M79 can't have delay since it'll ruin rocket jumping, and having a delay on what still is a short range weapon on top of that existing long reload is just ridiculous.
Um... M79's reload is quite fast, on the contrary. I admit, there are some good M79 users out there, but it's not as hard to master as other weapons.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: O.R.I.O.N. on August 21, 2006, 01:28:17 pm
The only true balancing problem in the sense of realism is the Barrett's fire rate.  Those things are gas and recoil operated, not bolt action.  They can unload a round per second, I've seen videos.  And technically, the LAW is a one-shot deal, so technically it shouldn't reload at all.  Everything else is fine.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: {LAW} Gamer_2k4 on August 21, 2006, 01:45:39 pm
The only true balancing problem in the sense of realism is the Barrett's fire rate. Those things are gas and recoil operated, not bolt action. They can unload a round per second, I've seen videos. And technically, the LAW is a one-shot deal, so technically it shouldn't reload at all. Everything else is fine.

So many people confuse Soldat with real life...

Soldat is not meant to be realistic.  That's why you have jetboots, can carry a minigun, and can take multiple shots without bleeding or dying.  The weapons are not meant to be realistically balanced; indeed, if they were like real life, the game would not be popular because it's so UNBALANCED.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: O.R.I.O.N. on August 21, 2006, 04:20:04 pm
I know that.  I'm just saying that in respect of how the gun really works.  I know that the Barrett would be way too effective if it behaved realistically.  So would every other weapon in the game.  I'm not confusing Soldat with reality, I'm just comparing it.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Twistkill on August 21, 2006, 05:49:13 pm
I know that.  I'm just saying that in respect of how the gun really works.  I know that the Barrett would be way too effective if it behaved realistically.  So would every other weapon in the game.  I'm not confusing Soldat with reality, I'm just comparing it.
Even so, you shouldn't, because it will most likely confuse people. See how people will accuse you of comparing it to real-life? Exactly.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Keron Cyst on August 21, 2006, 08:57:01 pm
Besides, O.R.I.O.N., firing it at that rate would deafen you in real life, too. ;) The rate of fire in Soldat is how you should handle it to full usage in real life.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: O.R.I.O.N. on August 22, 2006, 10:52:26 am
lol, dude, my best friend has a freaking M82A1, and of course it's loud.  I've been near him when he fired it.  Besides, it was meant to have high rate of fire, just think about it.  Usually, if a sniper misses his first shot on a slow-shooting weapon, chances are he's boned. :|  So don't tell me how to use a freaking Barrett.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Keron Cyst on August 22, 2006, 01:58:33 pm
Sheesh, I'm sorry I'm not you, then oO'
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: xurol on August 22, 2006, 06:22:41 pm
The weapon balance as it is now is better than it has ever been. There has always been, and always will be, one weapon that the majority of public-server players will prefer to use. This version, it is M79 because it is relatively easy to play well with.

However, the problem is not the M79. It is a problem when an entire server uses it, but there have been occasions when I've gone into a server where everyone used Steyr or MP5 or Barret and that's just as much of a problem. The solution is not to change the M79. If you are uncomfortable with the number of players using M79 in a server, play somewhere else. Or better yet, get involved with the competitive clan scene of Soldat.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Keron Cyst on August 23, 2006, 09:53:06 am
The thing is, not many people can scrounge enough time to be able to compete seriously in clans & tournaments regularly, or some just don't like the rules, setup, trying to locate times for gathering in practice, recruitment, or clanwars, etc. I'm one of 'em.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: O.R.I.O.N. on August 23, 2006, 10:48:49 am
The weapon balance as it is now is better than it has ever been. There has always been, and always will be, one weapon that the majority of public-server players will prefer to use. This version, it is M79 because it is relatively easy to play well with.

However, the problem is not the M79. It is a problem when an entire server uses it, but there have been occasions when I've gone into a server where everyone used Steyr or MP5 or Barret and that's just as much of a problem. The solution is not to change the M79. If you are uncomfortable with the number of players using M79 in a server, play somewhere else. Or better yet, get involved with the competitive clan scene of Soldat.

I can understand that some people may think the 'ol Bumper may be a bit too effective, but xurol is absoultley right.

Another point:  I hate it when you use a M79 and instantly get classified as a n00b.  Listen, being n00bish with a M79 when you fire at random or just kill yourself with it.  There is a large degree of skill in using the M79 effectively.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Zamorak on August 23, 2006, 11:44:14 am
The arc comes into play at ranges of 41-50+ meters.

Also, the arc is important when scoping moving players, and scoping across map in a cannon like fashion.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: ArmedManiac on September 28, 2006, 06:35:47 pm
dude, if u fire a barret and arent good, ur "boned" if u arent good wit socom, knife, law, and maybe law. most of the noobs that use barret run in, get 1 shot off, die, repeat process. if u make it deal less or w/e, all the good people(like kinda me) would get made. if u made it better, u would give roaches nukes, barret is fine
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Axel on September 29, 2006, 03:15:31 pm
oi, i think that it should have a startup time. steyrs, mp5s and barrets dominating servers is okay because they're "normal" weapons, using bullets. the biggest problem with m79, and especially with an entire server using it, is the fact that it EXPLODES. if all of the friggin enemies charge in, just like they do, then they spray with their 79s, it gets to just being no fun when one team gets the upper hand and continually sprays the base, spawnkillin, pushing people around and doing untargeted damage, while the only member that doesnt have one rushes in and snatches the flag. they do this until everyone quits. when 7-10 people have the 79, it gets to be explosive spray, and that is what really pisses people off and adds leverage to the overbalance of the weapon. make a startup time. new players would stop using it and go back to the "normal", unexplosive weapons and it can be called a skill gun for those who get used to the startup time, just like the barrett, rather than a nuub weapon. just remember, explosive spray combined with spawnkilling is the worst and nuubiest thing you could do in any server, so dont do it or add in a delay!!!! :o ;)
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: ArmedManiac on September 29, 2006, 03:54:48 pm
dude, try using a 79, or a barret, they are easy to get 1 kill per death with, of course, they kill in one hit, but past that one shot, thats wen skill kicks in. granted, if like 10 guys run in with 79, it is hard to deal with, but spawning isnt that bad. u just gotta stand back a little making it really hard for a 79 to hit u. as with the whole only firing barret on the ground, u might as well take it out, cuz no one will use it. the guns are as good as their gonna get
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Axel on September 29, 2006, 04:12:06 pm
dude, im not talking about spawn camping, im talking about spawn killing. what i was talking about is the problem that 5-6 people just fly around your base shooting the spawning points, and youll know the maps where this is a big issue when you play those servers. some arent as bad as others, but some have the spawning points being on an island like area, where there are entrances both in front of and behind, and especially in maps where it is an open space with entrances on both sides. the entire enemy team pick can 79s and just jump, jet, spray etc. the spawns so that as soon as you spawn, you have bink and are being pushed a little ways in some direction, and there are grenades and explosions everywher, then 1 person comes in and steals the flag while all of your team is busy trying to get rid of the spawners, which, never happens because as soon as 1 dies another that respawned arrives to fill his place.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: ArmedManiac on September 29, 2006, 04:32:38 pm
how will a shot delay fix this then. i am not trying to be critical, just want some answers
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Axel on September 29, 2006, 04:40:59 pm
fewer shots dissallow the killing. ud be able to fight them better when you spawn, and a 1 or 2 sec delay outside of the reload would make people have to practice to be able to hit someone well, cuz youd have to hold on the mouse button for a second which will help make you hesitate if you cant keep a bead on the guy. its like the barrett, but explosive. also, we're on thin ice with the startup suggestion i made. be sure to only contibute to this topic in your posts. it might get locked otherwise. also, be sure to get the expirimental balance. we're being stupid not getting that and continually complaining about a 9 month old balance
get it first and then post
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: ArmedManiac on September 29, 2006, 04:55:42 pm
also, on that point, i personally have been shot down by a mod and had a forum locked that was about this issue, and he said it will never happen
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Axel on September 29, 2006, 04:58:50 pm
we posted at the same time, or atleast i modded and you posted at the same time. re read my post. hopefully noone will take offense to the fact that i made the suggestion
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Zamorak on September 29, 2006, 08:23:39 pm
First off, I would like to say that using statistics such as this don't mean much of anything.


Also, since when in ANY game is each weapon used equally?


Then, suppose that every gun was evenly balanced right? So everyone starts to use one specific gun because they like it. Just because they are all balanced doesn't neccesarilly mean that they will all be equally used.

Balance is misunderstood, weapon balance is situational and cannot be applied across the board.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Iq Unlimited on September 29, 2006, 11:52:27 pm
:o Zammy :D


I've said this before and I'l lsay it agin, basically all the guns are balanced, depending on what you like. the Barret could have a tinnnnnny bit less delay, but otherize I think all the guns are vey well-balanced. Its your strengths and weaknesses that make you think thereunbalanced, I'm ood vs. barret and m79, but suck vs. deagles and some autos. so yeah, it all depends.


Iq Unlimited
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Cato269 on September 30, 2006, 07:57:10 am
Iq, if all the guns were balanced, why is this part of the forums here?
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: 5th_account on September 30, 2006, 09:22:40 am
If you cannot notice the current unbalance then you won't notice a correction done to it.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: ArmedManiac on September 30, 2006, 09:39:23 am
i think the barret is fine. i use it, and it cuts in more than half the noob spray of barrets, the m79 is hard enough that noobs cant do undo damage unless there are like the whole team. ur correct, guns are balanced, and its kinda a triangle of wat beats wat.
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: -Vis- on September 30, 2006, 03:43:04 pm
Your wrong the only advantage ruger has in that sence is if you have just spwaned,
Think about it you shoot with m79 and start reloading after the ruger has shot 4 shots your ready to fire again so its 2 m79 shots in 4 ruger shots, with only 20 tick differance and shooting 4 bullets are mor elikely to miss/legshot that shooting 2 m79 bullets

First of all, I never said that you would always get two kills with the ruger to one with the m79.  I just said it was possible.

Secondly, four bullets are more likely to miss than two bullets?  I fail to see the logic in that.  Assuming similar skill with the respective weapons, they should each have the same miss rate.

If you look at the weapons.ini file, you'll see that it takes 186 ticks for the m79 to complete a firing (one shot, one kill).  It takes 260 ticks for the ruger to complete a firing (four shots, two kills).  An m79 requires 372 ticks before it can make a third kill.  A ruger can make three kills in 340 ticks  (160 for clip, 100 for reload, 80 for next two shots).  This advantage increases as more shots are fired.  Five firings for the ruger (10 kills) take 1300 ticks.  Ten firings for the m79 (10 kills) take 1860 ticks.  Let's say you only get leg shots, so every kill takes three hits for the ruger (still one for the m79).  After three firings with the ruger (780 ticks), you get four kills.  After four firings with the m79 (744 ticks), you also get four kills.  So yes, if you always hit with the m79 and only sometimes hit with the ruger, the m79 is slightly better.  However, even m79ers don't hit every time.

Anyway, there's the math behind Soldat ;).  Let me know if you see any errors with it.

Speaking of big numbers, this is my 100th post! W00t!

Here's an error for you. You say a ruger can make 3 kills in 340 ticks. 160 for a clip, 100 for reload, and 80 for the next 2 shots. This is wrong. The first shot in your clip requires no wait time. Therefore, the first clip only requires 120 ticks, and the 2 shots after the reload only require 40 ticks. That comes to 260 ticks, rather than 340.

Work the rest out for yourself. :P
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: Axel on October 02, 2006, 04:02:00 am
Your wrong the only advantage ruger has in that sence is if you have just spwaned,
Think about it you shoot with m79 and start reloading after the ruger has shot 4 shots your ready to fire again so its 2 m79 shots in 4 ruger shots, with only 20 tick differance and shooting 4 bullets are mor elikely to miss/legshot that shooting 2 m79 bullets

First of all, I never said that you would always get two kills with the ruger to one with the m79. I just said it was possible.

Secondly, four bullets are more likely to miss than two bullets? I fail to see the logic in that. Assuming similar skill with the respective weapons, they should each have the same miss rate.

If you look at the weapons.ini file, you'll see that it takes 186 ticks for the m79 to complete a firing (one shot, one kill). It takes 260 ticks for the ruger to complete a firing (four shots, two kills). An m79 requires 372 ticks before it can make a third kill. A ruger can make three kills in 340 ticks (160 for clip, 100 for reload, 80 for next two shots). This advantage increases as more shots are fired. Five firings for the ruger (10 kills) take 1300 ticks. Ten firings for the m79 (10 kills) take 1860 ticks. Let's say you only get leg shots, so every kill takes three hits for the ruger (still one for the m79). After three firings with the ruger (780 ticks), you get four kills. After four firings with the m79 (744 ticks), you also get four kills. So yes, if you always hit with the m79 and only sometimes hit with the ruger, the m79 is slightly better. However, even m79ers don't hit every time.

Anyway, there's the math behind Soldat ;). Let me know if you see any errors with it.

Speaking of big numbers, this is my 100th post! W00t!

Here's an error for you. You say a ruger can make 3 kills in 340 ticks. 160 for a clip, 100 for reload, and 80 for the next 2 shots. This is wrong. The first shot in your clip requires no wait time. Therefore, the first clip only requires 120 ticks, and the 2 shots after the reload only require 40 ticks. That comes to 260 ticks, rather than 340.

Work the rest out for yourself. :P

....now were you trying to discredit him? it didnt work. but anywho, the whole thing with the triangle is THE BALANCE. balance is related to all of the guns as a whole. if you change one, you have to look at all the others to see how they are effected by this change, for example, if all of a sudden we made all of the autos do a heapload more damage, but the self bink is incredibly high, it might have worn away the barrier that protected against deagle users and their now they run rampant throughout the servers.(this is just an example. no actual evidence was used to make it). teh huge triangle, or more like 10-14 pointed circle, is wat teh weapon balance is all bout, if you look at it the right way. you try to get all of the points level, but if you change one itll either sink or fall, and thus other weapons might accidentally sink or fall as well. so there >:P',',
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: -Vis- on October 06, 2006, 01:16:06 am
Axel, seriously... put a cork in it. I'm not trying to discredit anyone. He said if we find any errors in his calculations, let him know. Well I found an error, and I'm letting him know. What's your problem?
Title: Re: Gun Balance
Post by: GAMEOVER on October 06, 2006, 07:38:13 pm
Wow, where are you guys coming up with some of this stuff? I left my comments for next version months ago. Some of you are saying multiple things atleast stick to your opinions..