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Soldat Talk => Game Improvements / Suggestions => Topic started by: LORD KILLA on February 16, 2009, 04:31:46 pm

Title: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on February 16, 2009, 04:31:46 pm
I dream all the time if i play with bots: "Please, let them think!"  :'(

I hope soldat will be the first game with really thinking bots !!!  ::)   ;)

So i decidet to post my idea here.
It neednt to be very big, there should me options to optimize "thinking quality" or "just select stardart bots"
Anyway.... I hope someone will try to follow my idea, but i think most will answer "Never !!!"
I wich the source code be posted here, and all can download and correct, give more ideas...
I am a beginner in C++/C#/VB or pascal, and cant write the whole program, but here ae my theories: [ www.microsoft.com/express/download/ (http://www.microsoft.com/express/download/) ]
 
#1: Hide 'n Seek !
Bots, wich wont see someone in a box, will be needed to make ppl able to Hide in Boxes or something likt that. Normal bots are just getting X and Y of player, and 'RayCast...' function, but players want to hide ,[Hide 'n Seek!] Seekers will be the bots.
We will need to make edge detect function. Something what compares the Pixel before and after, and decide if there is a edge. later it will put got information to a 'map of edges' where bot can "think about them".
They will analyse it and decide again: "Is this thing a men/enemie/wall/flag/stat/nade/bullet..."
This step is very important. After it detects what kind of object it is, it puts it to a "archive", this should be an exters textfile, where the bot makes notes, The saving brain of the bot. And if it detects a 'something' it will compare it with the archive.
It will get the Colour of hair if it is ready with analyze and have not got anything over the "important-Level", the pants, the favourite weapon...
Heres an example how to detest a men, asking howto normal wall... just a line xD
hardcoded:
(http://C:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\Max\Eigene Dateien\Eigene Bilder\SSBI\Lines #1.png)These should be the lines the Bot "imagin himself" to dtest what weapont the enemie/friend holdes, it[he] should got his own favourite weapon
But if there is a predator Men, it will be not so easy to detect, but if he fly ?:
there will be a "logic error" maybe not bad, but if you see somewhere a men shooting at jetflames....
So it (he) have to be able to thing realy, it have to thing over: what can avoid this ... ?
Thats why i cant do whole program.
#2: "Where am I ?"
This is how the bot will find his way/follow target.
We will need again the edge detector. If the map is ready, it looks for background... a noraml/static color, just blue for example. The Walls will be in a other color. if someone make a map where wall is like the background, and background looks like the wall, it will be still able to decide whats wall waht not. It will detect in what type it is in, and thinks: "here i am abele to move, so i cant move in something other"
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-]Next we need a 'wayfinder'. My idea is to make a thing tries all way possibilities and if the jets are enough, jet will be in 3 levels marked as "not enought" "maybe possible" "yes", so it (he/shy) wont calculate if it can fly such high or not, just calculate the chance.[/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-]Ok, the mover is realy the hardest thig here, just press keys [SendKeys.Send()] for it xD[/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-] [/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-]Next we will need to make something what detects where "should i go the nearest way to the flag ?"/"what wnwmies are comming here?"/"can i bet them ?"/"...".[/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-]it wont be very funny if a bot goes in the wrong direction, but it will stop. It is learning ^^, and you can tell him"oh men, thats the wrong way. follow me!", and it wil undertsand ! [/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-]So it will take notes... like in #1, but other ones.[/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-] [/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-]#3: ->player: "I hate bots!" ->bot:"what did you say?! I hate people !"[/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-] [/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-]If it can decide where it goes to, where it is, who someone is, whats the favourite weapon of someone, .... ? Why it should not understand and answer what people say ?[/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-][have i choses the right title? :D ][/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-]We will need one or more langues the bot knows, its better to make able to save the notes for next games, very recomendet by me (whould you like if someone delete you all things you ever thought of ?).[/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-]Than, the Positions of words, if all type well english, there wont be any problems. But almost all ppl type something like: "wow" "hurrrrraaaa!!!!!" "Ill kill u" "omg" "wuu2?" "..." it wont be very easy to make a "understandng bot". Cause of this I get teh idea, if programm cant decrype what a player said, it will allembly all words, question marks, ...  And try to set the "decrypt levels" of this words[/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-] [/b]
[bad idea to walk in walls -.-]
[will add more later, have to go sleep now... I hope you (or MM) will use thease theories ;) ][/b]
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: ~Niko~ on February 16, 2009, 04:38:46 pm
awesome, but who will provide you of the source code?
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Rook_PL on February 16, 2009, 05:04:22 pm
Bots are useless, if real people are at hand why to bother improving bots? They need only amount of thinking to fill their zombie role. That's it.
btw. Check the spelling in your signature.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: iDante on February 16, 2009, 05:35:52 pm
While I am always for bot intelligence being helped (they are the first thing that a new soldat-player plays against), I don't think that it is that big of a deal.

Also most of your (technical) ideas are unimplementable or make no sense.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: ~Niko~ on February 16, 2009, 06:33:51 pm
Also most of your (technical) ideas are unimplementable or make no sense.
lol just noticed it, i read between lines...

bots are for zombie matches only. Also who's the noob who plays against bots nowadays?
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: EnEsCe on February 16, 2009, 08:35:32 pm
After reading the first two sentences of "Hide n' Seek" I had to stop...

All I could think of was, what the hell?
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: chutem on February 17, 2009, 02:04:21 am
IMO what would be good would be some kind of scriptable bots.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: STM1993 on February 17, 2009, 06:32:04 am
As cool as it would be to have more intelligent bots (to play in BOSS servers or to solve some problems which have affected the bots negatively), I think it's a waste of time. The best usage of bots is to act as a zombie, because although they are very limited in movement and intelligence (that indeed feels like a real zombie, compared to human players), the zombies are actually pretty good with the saw - simple yet effective (especially in large numbers), though they can be outsmarted depending on the map. You also have scripts to improve them in some ways.

If you really want to play with "intelligent bots", I suggest you play with human players instead. If you really want to fight bots that badly, then try and enter a scripted server whereby the bots are considerably stronger, like in BOSS servers.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on February 17, 2009, 08:39:15 am
-.-

I thing, you are thinking in the wrong way, if there are "Inteligent Bots" more players will know soldat as the newest game with really thinking bots! And more ppl will play with them, they should have friends, too. So you can teach it.

Please take note to my idea.

Bot scripting will be needed to read notes and write them. Other players will maybe copy pase code to a new bot, but if there are two bot wich already know the same things they will be same strong

Please read, -its realy good idea!!!  :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: STM1993 on February 17, 2009, 09:41:18 am
Actually, this has been suggested quite a number of times before. Many, although agreeing that having a more intelligent AI is a pretty cool, would not support the idea.

1. People play online against OTHER players. Not bots. A very large majority do this.
2. If you play with bots, chances are its a mission, boss or zombie server or some scripted server, whereby the current AI works well enough with good waypointing.
3. Implementing this idea would possibly mean a whole change of the AI system and map system of Soldat, which is undesirable. This is a minor feature due to the above two points, so it is not worth the time to code - more time should be spent fixing bugs or adding more practical features.
4. Soldat is a simple game. Making it so over-sophisticated and advanced defeats the whole purpose.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: gladiator2 on February 17, 2009, 09:50:45 am
Uh...

Thinking bots? Don't know... I play Close Combat: First To Fight, where one of the neat things is that both the OppFor AI and Marine AI have discipline levels and morale levels, where usually, the discipline and morale for the OpFor decreases the longer you engage them, until they either retreat or surrender. Halo 3 has very intelligent AI that also retreat when overwhelmed.

The point being, these two games are big, and Soldat is small. I don't know how far you can reasonably go with smart AI. If you set them to the highest difficulty level, they're pretty challenging... at times.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on February 17, 2009, 04:29:41 pm
wow
i am shocked,
most voted just for no, and not never  :o :o :o
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: tehsnipah on February 17, 2009, 07:24:48 pm
I don't understand... Why do you want to play with bots?

I mean it would be nice for zombie mod and boss mod, but HnS? I don't know....
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: amb2010 on February 17, 2009, 07:42:50 pm
wow
i am shocked,
most voted just for no, and not never  :o :o :o

Why would you be shocked? Soldat is mainly a multiplayer game, the point of multiplayer is of course to play with other real people not bots. Although I kinda agree with the bot thing, I think having smarter bots would improve Soldat both single and multiplayer because many sub-gamemodes use bots. It isn't top priority but would be a nice little update eventually when we run out of ideas for Soldat(if it ever happens..)
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: chutem on February 18, 2009, 12:11:43 am
If you set them to the highest difficulty level, they're pretty challenging... at times.
Not in the slightest.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Blue-ninja on February 18, 2009, 12:55:29 am
What makes bots half as intelligent as you may say is near-perfect waypointing.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on February 18, 2009, 08:25:34 am
First i mean, more voted for "no"
I thought all will vote for "Never !!!", what always happens when i post pool with somehing of my idea/...

Well, I thing anyone will understand my idea
I thing if someone have got 136 IQ and post something, someone with just a smilar IQ will be able to understand....
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on February 18, 2009, 08:26:53 am
What makes bots half as intelligent as you may say is near-perfect waypointing.

I dont understand O.o sorry
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on February 18, 2009, 12:44:23 pm
Well, imagine bots getting better than people, after you play with them. Imagine you against a thinking bot and after he can practically eliminate you all the times, all you can do when playing with him is getting better than you are by beating "yourself". This would be a very good way to train yourself, or play in servers in bots vs ppl games. Imagine INF against bots, or a knife server against a bot team. That would be really challenging.
Besides, multiplayer is very cool, and soldat is a multiplayer game, but the player vs com part of the game is very weak, this would help a lot to improve it, and will help noobs becoming "less" noobs.
f12 on this one (as long as we get to choose between standard and thinkin bots).
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: echo_trail on February 18, 2009, 06:11:00 pm
[...]if there are "Inteligent Bots" more players will know soldat as the newest game with really thinking bots! And more ppl will play with them, they should have friends, too. So you can teach it.
[...] Other players will maybe copy pase code to a new bot, but if there are two bot wich already know the same things they will be same strong

Please read, -its realy good idea!!!  :'( :'( :'(

Let's call'em Skynet!
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on February 18, 2009, 11:25:57 pm
This would easily be added with some quick algorithm, where the bot finds the quickest way to a path, while avoiding obstacles. My bots do it in my games.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on February 19, 2009, 08:28:49 am
They do? What about sharing mate? :P
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on February 19, 2009, 11:13:00 am
My program is coded in another langauge, the sister langauge of C++. I know coding algorithm like this is possible in almost every langauge, especially C++.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on February 19, 2009, 04:38:26 pm
lol, i know C++, too ;D

But why can what Skysomething ???
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on February 19, 2009, 05:49:16 pm
It doesn't need to be horribly smart, because that is what creates bugs. My SURCOD the Shooter AI was originally so smart, that it just wasn't fun to play against. So when I was dumbing it down, I messed up a lot of code.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: tendulker on February 19, 2009, 10:48:37 pm
Wow, that really opens up some new possibilities Xxypher! Do you have examples/ code?

I thought maybe just making an option for bots to react to movement like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park i.e. they see things only when they move... would make for some interesting bot play IMO. This would probs be both easy and wouldn't slow down the game much.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: STM1993 on February 20, 2009, 05:20:31 am
I thought maybe just making an option for bots to react to movement like the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park i.e. they see things only when they move... would make for some interesting bot play IMO. This would probs be both easy and wouldn't slow down the game much.
That idea would backfire very easily. I can just stand still and the bot won't do anything to harm me, just walks past.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on February 20, 2009, 08:40:20 am
yeap. If you have them Xxypher, what about sending the prototypes out to the community? :P
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on February 20, 2009, 10:37:56 am
Maybe someone should try to do it in small prototype version...
This will help a lot to see quatity of them.
I mean, you neednt to use it ingame, try at a screenshoot, or something like that ;)
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: excruciator on February 20, 2009, 10:42:32 am
It doesn't need to be horribly smart, because that is what creates bugs. My SURCOD the Shooter AI was originally so smart, that it just wasn't fun to play against. So when I was dumbing it down, I messed up a lot of code.

How smart, exactly.


Like halo smart?

Turn them back into the genius that they were and post a demo
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on February 20, 2009, 11:47:36 am
I will start working on it later, hopefully.
What the bots do is they have a random "idle" path that they run on that makes them walk around searching for something. When they find a target, which is usually controlled by a parent object, it attacks the closest one with an aim system that calculates the target's speed and direction to shoot where you will be, not where you are at, but of course I have limitations on this, like a small division key that makes it so it isn't perfect. The bots jump if the player is too high, it uses jetboots if they have them equipped, and they first find a weapon if they do not have one or if there is a better one near.
It works great when they are at near genius level. The only problem is my bots have a hard time finding people when they are under them. Though they can get to you easily if you are above.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on February 20, 2009, 01:12:56 pm
 :o thats sooo cool :D share share share  [retard]
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: L[0ne]R on February 20, 2009, 01:41:15 pm
Havent read the whole post, because IMO it would be a waste of my time.
Bots will never be as fun as real players. Games like Soldat, or any other shooter aren't meant to play with bots. Improving their AI would be a waste of time, since there are other more important features to add and bugs to fix.
You can practise aiming and dodging, and bots will do well for that. But programming them for something more would be too hard.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: excruciator on February 21, 2009, 03:50:15 pm
So the genius bots does not mean that they are master tactician, just they have insanely good aim
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: L[0ne]R on February 21, 2009, 05:36:25 pm
So the genius bots does not mean that they are master tactician, just they have insanely good aim
Actually, I meant exactly the opposite, if you were referring to my post. :|
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: excruciator on February 24, 2009, 09:34:04 am
So the genius bots does not mean that they are master tactician, just they have insanely good aim
Actually, I meant exactly the opposite, if you were referring to my post. :|

I wasn't.

I was replying to what xxypher said.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on February 24, 2009, 10:47:53 am
Well, I havent started working on the bot yet. Way too much school an dhouse work. We are getting ready to move soon.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on February 24, 2009, 01:01:11 pm
Ok, thanks a lot Xylpher :)
And they neednt to be genius, they should not be

The Bot should not calculate anything exactly, we dont do it too, do we ? no.
There should be "Aera" or level.
If a enemie is in the seeing width, it algins the levels(aeras) to objects, cover possibilities/teammates/Medics/SGs/....
And sorry cause i did not finish my theories, but i an busy, much homework/classworks/... :( (Will finish soon, i hope)

And if you need help Xylpher, i can help a little
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on February 24, 2009, 02:03:45 pm
I have everything going well, I just need time to edit it out of my game and into a fresh small example.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on February 25, 2009, 09:23:55 am
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on February 25, 2009, 02:23:15 pm
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D haha
Ok, If you are done, you plz post the code. not need, but its better as official code 'suggestable' by everyone. I do not want to this be a secret. Other can help with the code, too ;D
I hope the pool results will chande to higher...

Anyway... Should i add the next theories now ?
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on February 25, 2009, 02:25:18 pm
Wow, we are already at 3rd page ;D ;D ;D
And i didnt looked in here long time, the poll results are beter ;D thanks too all who voted
I hope you will be able to enjoy the Thinking bots...
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on February 27, 2009, 05:05:35 am
IMO even though (SI) implementing can take whole months in games like soldat, i still believe this can be done, ok, i know "what noob plays against bots nowadays"....
well what if some lost his internet connection for a while and wanted to stay in shape? when i started playing i too trained 2 weeks on bots, after having made the fatal mistake of going online the second i opened up soldat, and i feel that same way towards others who do it, i mean, i watch "major's" enter and other kinds of "noobs" who don't even know to shoot a LAW\Brt\throw knives, and it's:
1-annoying
2-boring
3-doesn't help pro players in any way to enjoy themselves
4-simply pathetic to look at
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on February 27, 2009, 09:51:10 am
5 -  They get usually kicked when they're in.

(Just came up to me, is this forum written in the game, i mean, like the soldat homepage is?)
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: L[0ne]R on February 27, 2009, 09:55:21 am
5 -  They get usually kicked when they're in.

(Just came up to me, is this forum written in the game, i mean, like the soldat homepage is?)
Usually? I haven't seen it happen that often. Usually it's the noobs who kick pro players for "hacking" and "aimbotting", or some unknown reason in spanish. :|

What do you mean by "forum written in the game"?
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on February 27, 2009, 10:03:01 am
Hell yea it happens, just the other day i saw 3 majors gettin kicked of server games ones after the others adn the reason always was "Noob major".

When you open th game, there's the name of MM, and th soldat homepage. mybe you should put there the soldat forum link too.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on February 27, 2009, 10:33:57 am
Well thanks for reminding me of 5 shadow ;d
and btw it is true, that noobs kick pros, that's another benefit, if those "newbs" would've played against stronger bots, quite stron ones, they wouldn't call high skill a cheat online.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: wolfbr on February 27, 2009, 12:42:21 pm
the possibility to use custom bots would be interesting(similar a half life, counter strike...)
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: SniperTheKiller on March 03, 2009, 11:33:34 am
100% aimbot, shoot the whole clip till enemy dies, some dodging skills, iniciative @waypointing and u have a terminator...(not the bot), but aint worth it prolly
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on March 03, 2009, 04:18:19 pm
The bots only shoot when they know it will hit. Waypointing is not in my AI code. They dodge rockets, bullets, and certain objects if they are moving fast enough to be deadly.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on March 05, 2009, 10:18:55 am
What means 'AI' ?
Auto Intelligence ?
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on March 05, 2009, 10:27:09 am
Artificial intelligence ;d
the subject we're talking about here isn't really even close to AI but it's a replica of it, call it "analysis and processing"
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: excruciator on March 05, 2009, 12:23:56 pm
Xxypher, teach them how to do the spas nade combo. Or any combo.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Sappy on March 05, 2009, 01:48:01 pm
Of course better AI should be implemented.

However, there simply aren't enough resources to devote to such a project, and it just isn't practical.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on March 05, 2009, 05:57:11 pm
It's not impractical but rather too big, it would take time NO ONE would sacrifice for a better soldat experience for newbies.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on March 05, 2009, 06:02:13 pm
Well, if bots like these are already coded, then wth, i say go for it.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on March 06, 2009, 07:07:31 am
Well basically, and to be honest, each and ever single one of us is a "Thinking" bot, no really, if you take it from a different perspective...each one has his "taunts"...his fav weapons and game styles, and his own look (forget majors)...am i right or am i right? ;d
so wtf why not implement AI to the other bots?
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on March 06, 2009, 07:35:23 am
Xxypher, teach them how to do the spas nade combo. Or any combo.
If I ever get to doing this in C++, then I will. But for right now, it is an example.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on March 06, 2009, 09:05:05 am
Ye... an example
But they musnt take parameters from game, it should be able to run bot, on every game....
Without linking it each other.
That is importand for Synthetic Bot Intelligence ;)
I know this may take a lot of time, but some day it will be ready

Or a better thing...
It will code himself xD
just say it what it have to press/do to write a function type class...
this will save sooo much time to cade it ;D
But here we will need someone with 200 IQ =\
Sorry, not me.... i have only got 136
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on March 06, 2009, 04:16:35 pm
Actually, the bots have a small amount of coding compared to what most people thing go into the bots. I usually only put in about 300-500 lines of code into my bot intelligence, and that is with spacing and grouping things together to make it easier to find.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Ketchup on March 09, 2009, 03:40:27 pm
This would be very good, but not for Zombie servers. If there are zombies that can actually think, it will ruin the thrill. It would also ruin the maps that want bots to walk into a certain direction. (Like the maps where they want the bots to fall into a pit trap to prevent corner flooding.) It's a fine suggestion, but I don't think it should pass.

F11
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on March 10, 2009, 03:22:58 pm
My bots are not good at dodging terrain, so them walking blindly into a pit or a death wall will happen.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Ketchup on March 14, 2009, 02:06:11 pm
As far as I know, we all have the same type of bots. Or did I misunderstand you?
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on March 15, 2009, 06:35:07 am
Yes we do. But he coded AI bots for himself ain't i right?
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Ragnaros on March 15, 2009, 02:02:56 pm
ohh, guyz lisen... is that very important? who cares about BOTS??!!!

ok lets go easy logical way.
you made this thread at Soldat Forums right?
that means that you have opened internet and then you went to the site right?!
that means that your inet is working OKAY and you have no problems with it, normal access right?
that means that you can play games, especially soldat, especially online right?
if you play online that means that youve played with HUMANS (wait ill look in wiki what is "huuuuumans"...)
if youve played with HUUUUMANS that means that you felt the difference between real man and stupid bot=computer=machine

from all of these SIMPLE facts one question follows... FOR WHAT?
for what do you need genious AI eh? humanity is still alive and people still play Soldat online...

PS: i play with my friend =Goblin= online very often... i cant imagine A BOT doing the same things he can do... no he is not PRO or something... he is a suicidal maniac  bringing a lot of fun not only to me to other players too... so how can BOT repeat for example "suicidal freak's" behaviour?
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Dairy on March 15, 2009, 05:27:44 pm
ohh, guyz lisen... is that very important? who cares about BOTS??!!!

ok lets go easy logical way.
you made this thread at Soldat Forums right?
that means that you have opened internet and then you went to the site right?!
that means that your inet is working OKAY and you have no problems with it, normal access right?
that means that you can play games, especially soldat, especially online right?
if you play online that means that youve played with HUMANS (wait ill look in wiki what is "huuuuumans"...)
if youve played with HUUUUMANS that means that you felt the difference between real man and stupid bot=computer=machine

from all of these SIMPLE facts one question follows... FOR WHAT?
for what do you need genious AI eh? humanity is still alive and people still play Soldat online...

PS: i play with my friend =Goblin= online very often... i cant imagine A BOT doing the same things he can do... no he is not PRO or something... he is a suicidal maniac  bringing a lot of fun not only to me to other players too... so how can BOT repeat for example "suicidal freak's" behaviour?

You Russians have to screw up all fun , don't ya ?

Where's the problem ? I won't mind better bots. There isn't any serious reason why they couldn't get better. More fun with offline play.

They're kind of useless for people who are used to online game and who never played against bots. But for example the zombies vs ruger/barrett.

I mean, when the Enesce or MM would be too bored and had a lot of free time they could spend some time for this. But bug fixin' is more important than this I have to agree.

So the question is WHY NOT ?

F12
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: STM1993 on March 15, 2009, 06:24:10 pm
Bots are there to add to the fun or especially, to test certain things ingame. If I had to set up a server and wait for someone to come round, I'd have to wait for a very long time before I can test my stuff and make improvements.

The current AI is fine, seeing as how it can fulfill simple roles as zombies, though it can be improved. The AI seems to react to certain weapons in a very awkward/undesirable manner - it would crouch and stay relatively still when it sees you with Fists, a Saw, Ruger or Barrett. It would also attack ANYONE, including teammates, who have a bow. It attempts to run away from grenades rather than try jumping over them. When they have the flag, they do not shoot unless they meet another flagger. If the bot is given low accuracy in its settings, it aims above you all the time - which is actually a lot more accurate if you are trying to fly over him.

Bots are secondary to other issues in Soldat, so I won't be surprised to know that it won't be changed for a long time. But if there is enough time etc, why not? Even better if there's an option to set the intelligence level of the bots, so that it may act like the way it is now except that it charges in fearlessly (better for zombies) or as a formidable test bot or a boss character in some servers.

Soldat emphasizes on PvP, but bots have proven to be very convenient for testing and add-ons to scripted servers, as well as being a part of very popular zombie servers.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on March 16, 2009, 03:30:16 pm
I play with HUUUMANS, i am not stupid!
But at testing, they could be needed, if you say "Hey, Stop shooting me!" it will stop, or give you a reason why he was/is still doing that...
You can make them to ADMINS, they can wath your servers, ALL TIME, or a database for translation, you can ask him for something, and he says this to you translated
I think there are more reasons why bots should be inplemendet

Every server should have a bot, with is the server itself, it can say the script error, what to do to fix it, or what the hell i know...
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Ketchup on March 16, 2009, 10:54:05 pm
ohh, guyz lisen... is that very important? who cares about BOTS??!!!

ok lets go easy logical way.
you made this thread at Soldat Forums right?
that means that you have opened internet and then you went to the site right?!
that means that your inet is working OKAY and you have no problems with it, normal access right?
that means that you can play games, especially soldat, especially online right?
if you play online that means that youve played with HUMANS (wait ill look in wiki what is "huuuuumans"...)
if youve played with HUUUUMANS that means that you felt the difference between real man and stupid bot=computer=machine

from all of these SIMPLE facts one question follows... FOR WHAT?
for what do you need genious AI eh? humanity is still alive and people still play Soldat online...

PS: i play with my friend =Goblin= online very often... i cant imagine A BOT doing the same things he can do... no he is not PRO or something... he is a suicidal maniac  bringing a lot of fun not only to me to other players too... so how can BOT repeat for example "suicidal freak's" behaviour?

I say thinking bots would be cool for custom made campaign maps.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on March 17, 2009, 05:21:10 am
I play with humans but sometimes i find no challenge in playing agains't them or no fun. Sometimes it just gets more interesting against the bots. Why not AI bots? i say F12
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Ragnaros on March 17, 2009, 12:22:54 pm
Quote from: Shadow_Knight
but sometimes i find no challenge in playing agains't them[humans] or no fun.
then go for a walk, take a lil bath, go take some sleep then return back, launch Soldat and tell me about The Fun...

But at testing, they could be needed, if you say "Hey, Stop shooting me!" it will stop, or give you a reason why he was/is still doing that...
You can make them to ADMINS, they can wath your servers, ALL TIME, or a database for translation, you can ask him for something, and he says this to you translated
I think there are more reasons why bots should be inplemendet

Every server should have a bot, with is the server itself, it can say the script error, what to do to fix it
ZOMG dreams dreams dreams...

The current AI is fine, seeing as how it can fulfill simple roles as zombies, though it can be improved. The AI seems to react to certain weapons in a very awkward/undesirable manner - it would crouch and stay relatively still when it sees you with Fists, a Saw, Ruger or Barrett. It would also attack ANYONE, including teammates, who have a bow. It attempts to run away from grenades rather than try jumping over them. When they have the flag, they do not shoot unless they meet another flagger. If the bot is given low accuracy in its settings, it aims above you all the time - which is actually a lot more accurate if you are trying to fly over him.
everything is easy and understandable...


So the question is WHY NOT ?

F12
f**k, man, you are right but you can say it in ANY suggestion thread...
"oh wait why not? f12!"

i meant FOR WHAT do we need Perfect Living AI in Soldat?! we have massive multiplayer with a lot of active addicts....

but i want to say BUT =)))
I say thinking bots would be cool for custom made campaign maps.
oh THIS is the perfect idea! full working singleplayer(i mean campaigns)! yeah here we need at least Good "thinking bots"... oh we dont have campaigns? :| good infiltration match with bots =/= full working singleplayer!
sry i just want to open your eyes, Dairy, we dont have normal singleplayer where Brilliant bots can show themselfs :( in offline DM matches? oh youre kidding...

my suggestion: make a singleplayer campaigns! show me them!

and i can answer your question: WHY NOT? bcause we dont have  singleplayer...


ps:
You Russians have to screw up all fun , don't ya ?
LOL
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on March 17, 2009, 01:29:40 pm
Quote from: Shadow_Knight
but sometimes i find no challenge in playing agains't them[humans] or no fun.
then go for a walk, take a lil bath, go take some sleep then return back, launch Soldat and tell me about The Fun...
This has no real argument to it, he gave a reason why he wanted this, and you came up with some fallacy to try to disprove him in a humorous way...

But at testing, they could be needed, if you say "Hey, Stop shooting me!" it will stop, or give you a reason why he was/is still doing that...
You can make them to ADMINS, they can wath your servers, ALL TIME, or a database for translation, you can ask him for something, and he says this to you translated
I think there are more reasons why bots should be inplemendet

Every server should have a bot, with is the server itself, it can say the script error, what to do to fix it
ZOMG dreams dreams dreams...
This can easily be done. I can make it check for strings of code like this.
BattleEye is a bot, isn't it? So yeah, that has been done.

Bots are secondary to other issues in Soldat, so I won't be surprised to know that it won't be changed for a long time. But if there is enough time etc, why not? Even better if there's an option to set the intelligence level of the bots, so that it may act like the way it is now except that it charges in fearlessly (better for zombies) or as a formidable test bot or a boss character in some servers.
everything is easy and understandable...
I could easily understand this... Get your eyes checked. And if you were serious, then you just defeated your own argument.


So the question is WHY NOT ?

F12
f**k, man, you are right but you can say it in ANY suggestion thread...
"oh wait why not? f12!"

i meant FOR WHAT do we need Perfect Living AI in Soldat?! we have massive multiplayer with a lot of active addicts....

but i want to say BUT =)))
Not all people have internet, and some people lose internet after getting REALLY into the game, this isn't just about you, dumbass. I am tired of you thinking you own Soldat or that you actually have a real say in what goes into the game. Who said these need to be prefectly living bots, anyway? I am working on a smart AI that can make the gameplay a little better and more fun.

I say thinking bots would be cool for custom made campaign maps.
oh THIS is the perfect idea! full working singleplayer(i mean campaigns)! yeah here we need at least Good "thinking bots"... oh we dont have campaigns? :| good infiltration match with bots =/= full working singleplayer!
sry i just want to open your eyes, Dairy, we dont have normal singleplayer where Brilliant bots can show themselfs :( in offline DM matches? oh youre kidding...

my suggestion: make a singleplayer campaigns! show me them!

and i can answer your question: WHY NOT? bcause we dont have  singleplayer...

You did not open his eyes, you shot down what he thought would be cool in one of the most asshole ways possible. Try to get your head out of your ass and deflate your ego a little. A campaign would lengthen the gameplay for those who do not have online play or have nothing better to do. Just because you have a different view then someone else doesn't make you better and smarter because you have a quicker reason on why their opinion is wrong.
ps:
You Russians have to screw up all fun , don't ya ?
LOL
...

My add-ons are in BOLD.

Please, take other peoples' opinions into mind and stop thinking you are high and mighty.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on March 17, 2009, 01:50:56 pm
Sorry demon but to heck...xxyhper is right...you basically made an ass of yourself...(excuse my french) cause soldat ISN'T centered about you most people just agreed and you came up to blow the whole idea away...and that was weak, why the f**k wouldn't you want this to be implemented anyways? what difference does it make to you? some people don't really have net so loading soldat on to a memory stick and playing campaign modes offline would be cool for those less fortunate people....use your head man.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on March 18, 2009, 06:04:58 am
Demoniac is right. Are you again'st implementing it? You find it fun to play against humans? cool, me too (sometimes). Should i  be prived from playing against AI bots just because you don't find it interesting?
What if i want to play games with friends against bots? What if i'm at school and i don't have net? What if my net gets fucked up and i want to play? what if i want to have some mthrf*c*ig fun playing against AI bots?
Seriously man, does it bother you that much? if you don't like them, don't play with them!
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Ragnaros on March 19, 2009, 08:12:11 am
ouch, Xxypher... tnx for good brains-wash... Sure, sure...
that quote from STM... laughed when i saw what ive posted :-\ edited now (just missed while posting)

Quote from: Shadow_Knight
What if i'm at school and i don't have net? What if my net gets f**ked up and i want to play? what if i want to have some mthrf*c*ig fun playing against AI bots?
hmmm have to agree but AI level today is good enough for it (like STM said)

I will surely vote F12 for any little improvements (genious AI for Soldat? god No!) for bots... but we are talking about almost perfect AI.... i vote F11.

btw Xxypher, plz, take other peoples' opinions into mind (including mine) and stop thinking you are high and mighty...
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on March 19, 2009, 10:04:44 am
That is what I said to you.
Plus, I am the one programming this AI.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Shadow_Knight on March 20, 2009, 08:47:15 am
Well, then you can level them as in difficulty categories right? If so, the problem with 2 much or 2 less intelligence is solved, we get to choose.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on March 20, 2009, 09:41:41 am
I can easily do that. It can go from categories of intelligence.

Zombie
Stupid
Good
Smart
Genius
Tactical

Something like that.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Espadon on March 20, 2009, 09:50:59 am
Please look up the definition of tactical. Just because it sounds cool to you doesn't mean it means what you want it to mean.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on March 20, 2009, 10:28:58 am
So what, I was giving an example. I couldn't think of anything. All I am trying to state is that I can make different levels of AI.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: adam01526 on March 21, 2009, 04:04:54 am
Also most of your (technical) ideas are unimplementable or make no sense.
lol just noticed it, i read between lines...

bots are for zombie matches only. Also who's the noob who plays against bots nowadays?

i admit to playing against bots because my internet is so bad that it lagged so badly sodlat was unplayable :-(

i am all for the bots being improved but your ideas dont make sense
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: AussieJay on March 23, 2009, 05:14:43 am
I don't have access to the internet on my gaming computer, don't ask why.

I'm all for improving the bots.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on March 26, 2009, 11:35:55 am
Xxylpher, know when the code may be ready ?
You could post it here....
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: frosty on March 26, 2009, 04:10:37 pm
question, you want to run a server but cant get anyone to join

so i say, why not, sounds awesome, i mean i get bored quick with my server, same situation, my only option is bots, the bots are just plain stupid and boring
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on March 26, 2009, 04:48:58 pm
Sad to say, but my code may never be ready.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on March 26, 2009, 04:53:21 pm
Dam Xxypher what happened? did you reach a dead end or something???
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on March 26, 2009, 04:55:03 pm
Pretty much. My AI doesn't seem to be able to handle certain instances.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on March 26, 2009, 04:59:28 pm
Do you like need any help or anything? i think some good programmers can be found throughout the forums ;/
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on March 27, 2009, 09:03:50 am
yes, demoniac is right

I wish you could post the code here, and allow download, some people maybe will add stuff, or correct mistakes ;)
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on April 03, 2009, 09:40:04 am
Errr... ?
Xxylpher, can you please post your code here ?
then other can look at it and find errors, add stuff
Ill attach it to my firts post, then it can be viewable to everyone ^^
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on April 03, 2009, 11:14:32 am
I think that code deserves having a shot at, he's right post the code.
Maybe someone here can pick up your work, you will still get your credit for it ofc. Even though i doubt it's for credit right? ;D
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on April 03, 2009, 11:27:17 am
ye, I hope you will do it as fast as possible ^^
If you wont post it, or dont say anything, ill pm ya
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on April 03, 2009, 06:43:49 pm
Well, right now, if I would to psot the code, I would have to make an entire sub engine/game thingy were I would have to make a small game to show the AI off.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on April 04, 2009, 06:28:38 am
you can add the game later, or someone other can make it
make just a mini stupid game
neednt to have good graphics, just for tests with a ball, and your AI-instance will case it
the ball should just move randomly
then, with text
then....
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on April 04, 2009, 02:54:54 pm
Well, I am working on a "Two Week" game were I only have two weeks to complete a full horizontal space shooter. It is for a contest. It should be done around when I finish my new game.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on April 04, 2009, 03:11:12 pm
Then good luck, and best of wishes for the contest.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on April 06, 2009, 07:02:27 am
good luck ;)
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on April 16, 2009, 05:17:04 am
OK, its really stupid here, so hurry up.
I think your competition should be done.
internet here (i was traveling) is bad, and i cant rly play in internet. :(
plis hurry up
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on April 17, 2009, 07:53:47 pm
I didn't finish in time for the contest. B[
Though I will finish the game.
After about a week of working on the AI, I realized this in no way is styled like Soldat, and wouldn't be useful. I am not even working with the same program that Mike uses to create Soldat. So yeah, he could use it as a basis, but the fact remains that it would be ignored. I don't see why I should continue it unless I have word that it will be looked at.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on April 18, 2009, 04:26:44 am
you have my word, if that counts for something, I'll definitely have a look at it.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on April 18, 2009, 04:30:38 am
You have my word, too.
And it neednt to be 'implememded' into soldat.exe, it should be able to get all pixels of the game-screen and work with these. dont worry, i make worse apps then you ;)
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: poodleinacan on April 29, 2009, 01:24:22 pm
A AI is a beter idea. (no waypointing to do.........heaven!)
Thinking bot (made out of metal (and other things) and hard drives) ain't really possible with wath our describing. Also if the bot is thinking, well he could control some constants and contrants of the game. (that is if it evolves and gain powers).
And finnally it would result into not felling god by killing a bot mutiple times (a bot that can think by itself).
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: offspring92 on May 02, 2009, 10:04:10 pm
Well having bots that think smart prob. wouldnt really solve much. Because like they said is that most ppl play online. I play with bots and online like half-half. Because im Ok at soldat and i dont call myself "good" i dont feel like playing online as much so i play with bots and try to get better with M79 and Barret (spelled wrong?)

I no this is off subject: But i think IMO that there really only 4 weps thats pro and the rest are basicly newb weps. Like Barret, M79, Law, and Knife are the only pro weapons. It takes skill to use those. Im tired of all the ppl using machine guns and Spas because those are weapons that some one who just started playing can own with.

Back to topic: I also face bots alot because my computer/internet sucks badly so alot of servers i get that lag where they doing that random jumps and other stuff like u shoot some one and then like 5-10 seconds they die. Another good thing about bots is that if your internet stops working for any reason you can still face them.

IMO: i dont think theres a use to making bots think because most ppl who face bots only play them for internet problems and if they just started playing.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Xxypher on May 03, 2009, 09:43:00 am
Well, bad news. My computer hard drive is dead, there is a chance I can get my files back.
That, and the computer I am on now may not even be able to play Soldat...
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on May 03, 2009, 03:12:38 pm
Ever tried the Recuva recovery tool? It's from Piriform, the makers of CCleaner, try it for your lost data.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on May 04, 2009, 08:10:10 am
Aww, really bad news :(
I hope you will recover all files (or most of them) =\ good luck
(is it coused of hard disc that you didnt post here?)
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: Ketchup on May 05, 2009, 09:32:09 pm
I no this is off subject: But i think IMO that there really only 4 weps thats pro and the rest are basicly newb weps. Like Barret, M79, Law, and Knife are the only pro weapons. It takes skill to use those. Im tired of all the ppl using machine guns and Spas because those are weapons that some one who just started playing can own with.

Maybe the Barret, but for the rest... you're joking right?  ???

And yes, thinking bots would be awesome, maybe they should have the ability to not see players hiding in grass. It would make it the possibility of some stealth missions.
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on May 06, 2009, 11:15:03 am
I no this is off subject: But i think IMO that there really only 4 weps thats pro and the rest are basicly newb weps. Like Barret, M79, Law, and Knife are the only pro weapons. It takes skill to use those. Im tired of all the ppl using machine guns and Spas because those are weapons that some one who just started playing can own with.

Maybe the Barret, but for the rest... you're joking right?  ???

And yes, thinking bots would be awesome, maybe they should have the ability to not see players hiding in grass. It would make it the possibility of some stealth missions.

That's
IF soldat gets a mission\story mod, for which this would be actually quite useful...
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: poodleinacan on May 07, 2009, 06:50:35 am
OMG! skynet ! thats a great idea !
And maybe (they could "terminate" us (for those who didn't understand)).
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: demoniac93 on May 08, 2009, 02:16:51 pm
OMG! skynet ! thats a great idea !
And maybe (they could "terminate" us (for those who didn't understand)).

It's bots, not traffic\DefQon systems...
Title: Re: New "thinking bots" ?
Post by: LORD KILLA on May 09, 2009, 04:03:19 am
i would say, thats SI, not even bots ^^