Official Soldat Forums
Misc => The Lounge => Topic started by: DarkCrusade on May 18, 2010, 01:04:37 pm
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This topic is about the discussion whether cloning should be allowed or not. I think it's no easy question since there are so many aspects that you cannot clearly decide for one side so there needs to be a line somewhere. Maybe you have thoughts on this important part of science that is so mistreated if I may say it like that.
Discuss please, I want to hear what you think about it since I am doing a presentation about it in my religion class.
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Having us do your school work for you? Meh
anyway, I'm all for cloning. Only issue I can see is the extrem cost.
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I'm against this. What's the point of people/ animals all being the same? We were created to be different from others.
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I'm against this. What's the point of people/ animals all being the same? We were created to be different from others.
What about biologically engineering a "super soldier" and just cloning and using he/she/it for wars as opposed to drafting lots of naturally born people, many of which *will* die?
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But as with all technologies, in the long run it will do more harm than good, Joe.
Like mistaken identities in criminal cases.
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But as with all technologies, in the long run it will do more harm than good, Joe.
Like mistaken identities in criminal cases.
Elaborate? I don't see medical technology as doing more harm than good. And as for mistaken identities, each clone probably has the the same DNA (maybe we can refer to it as a hash or checksum?) and thus any human body with that specific hash is one of "them" and not one of "us" (uncloned people).
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But as with all technologies, in the long run it will do more harm than good, Joe.
Like mistaken identities in criminal cases.
Elaborate? I don't see medical technology as doing more harm than good. And as for mistaken identities, each clone probably has the the same DNA (maybe we can refer to it as a hash or checksum?) and thus any human body with that specific hash is one of "them" and not one of "us" (uncloned people).
So, you're saying we just pick one random human and base all of the clones off of his DNA?
That's even worse.
OK, now forget about the identities thing, another problem would be the clones taking over, as in developing certain emotions, shall we say, against their creators, and "rebel".
It's a possible scenario, considering the variables.
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Oh the hypocrisy, so suddenly an adult Human clone is less Human than a Human blastocyst? Give me a break.
developing certain emotions, shall we say, against their creators, and "rebel".
You're gonna have a hard time letting your kids go.
If you ever have any.
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I never said that, they deserve to live once created, but the idea of cloning is wrong to me.
I see a clone, I won't kill him/her, but I will always despise the idea of cloning.
We aren't God.
And I do not see how this has anything to do with me having kids...
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You create kids. They don't come flying in by Stork Airlines.
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You create kids. They don't come flying in by Stork Airlines.
I don't create them, I do materialize a body, in a way, but I believe that the "soul" aka life comes from somewhere else.
I don't want this to turn into a war of religious perspectives, I'm just an old school Catholic.
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And just what if it's the same with a clone? You just clone a body and "God sticks in a soul."
derp derp derp
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I don't create them, I do materialize a body, in a way, but I believe that the "soul" aka life comes from somewhere else.
::)
Cloning. The clone still has to undergo the normal stages of human development, so it wouldn't turn out to be exactly like anyone really. We all agree that environment has a great deal of effect on a person's personality, kay?
In other words, I have no qualms with "cloning."
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Wow, Espadon, you really do hate me, eh?
I wish for once in your pathetic life you would consider showing respect for any other reason than kissing ass.
I'm sorry, but I don't argue with half-assed idiots.
Conclusion: I'm against it.
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@bsb: There are different ways of cloning and one includes the foetus growing up in the mothers egg cell. Dolly had 3 mothers but no actual father for example.
@demoniac: People could tell you things about religion that you wouldn't like to hear and I'm no christian either even if I was christened.
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I'm against this. What's the point of people/ animals all being the same? We were created to be different from others.
What about biologically engineering a "super soldier" and just cloning and using he/she/it for wars as opposed to drafting lots of naturally born people, many of which *will* die?
Biological engineering and cloning are two different things.
As far as I know you're not able to take the best parts from DNA and mix them up into some super DNA that would give the person in future ability to be a super soldier. Or am I wrong?
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Afaik you are already able to cut the DNA into pieces and put in other pieces of DNA, too. It has been developed for ages now to fight HIV.
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Let's keep eugenics and gene enhancement out of the picture for now, because they have very little to do with cloning while causing a lot of distracting arguments. If you want to talk about eugenics, make your own thread.
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Go on and clone people, but not for society. And you shouldnt call them people. They should be called blanks. These blanks can then be programed(taught) how to do specific tasks. When they need rest or food, they simply get fed by a tube, and crap into diapers, which they change themselves and put on fresh ones the next day. This way, we can eliminate the need to work, and have a large food source.
Anyone for head?
(http://cheezpictureisunrelated.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/129095402294921785.jpg)
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You bring up an interesting point, Shard. No, actually not.
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Use clones as soldiers.
Use clones as slaves.
Use clones as your organs backup.
Make an opposite sex of yourself and let it live D: (Joking kay?)
ADDED:
Make legal porn out of them, because they are not humans and will never be..
Make everyone think that you are in many places at ones..
F12
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Organ backup is the only one that makes sense.
I think giving away jobs to drones is a terrible idea. I don't think I have to explain why.
If you don't understand, you're too young.
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You don't pay to clones, you just feed them...
Thats the idea :)
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@bsb: There are different ways of cloning and one includes the foetus growing up in the mothers egg cell. Dolly had 3 mothers but no actual father for example.
@demoniac: People could tell you things about religion that you wouldn't like to hear and I'm no christian either even if I was christened.
Don't worry, I know all about the controversies of Christianity...
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Having money from jobs is important.
There is no way a clone drone scenario can avoid having jobs. Conversely, clone drone scenario takes away more jobs than it creates.
It's nice to imagine that they can lounge around and have fun but you know it will be more along the lines of several million squatters on the streets.
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It'd be dandy to bring back extinct animals. There's quite a lot of mosquitoes trapped in fossilized resin which could hold blood from dinosaurs! With the help of some investors, hopefully one day a park of some sort will be created where the Triceratops can roam, fencing off ferocious Velociraptors and the magnificent T-Rex. They should call it... Jumanji.
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I'd love that idea; an aquarium of extinct marine life would be awesome.
It's too bad it opens up new niches and it'll be impossible to control the coming and going of species that take advantage of it. Ex. new breeds of mosquitoes, flies, ticks, and pathogens.
A fenced-in island doesn't keep out the birds which have been prime vectors for many a disease. They may be especially susceptible due to the genetic similarity between birds and dinosaurs.
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Anyone care to look at the economic consequences of cloning? Will they be bought/sold, monopolized, etc? Also, creating a clone for every person to benefit from would inherently double the worlds population, that's a LOT more mouths to feed. How will these massive (I'm sure they will have to be) cloning labs be powered? Obviously when there is a new product or resource created/discovered, Man will be there to make a profit off of it.
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I'm for it, mainly for military purposes.
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Organ backup is the only one that makes sense.
I think giving away jobs to drones is a terrible idea. I don't think I have to explain why.
If you don't understand, you're too young.
That's what I was thinking. I'm not a fan of cloning of almost any kind, and while I see the potential, I think it'd be near impossible to control. Growing organs via cloning seems like the way to go, but needless to say, no one wants a The Island'ish scene.
All in all, cloning's a no go on my part.
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I think mass-cloning is a terrible idea, but in limited quantities, cloning may have merit. Cloning an animal to give maximum control over testing various drug effects would be an example. Cloning a single organ for a transplant - yes; growing a 'blank' human for organs - no; regardless of morality, maintaining a whole, vegetative Human for any purpose is just ridiculously inefficient.
Sorry didn't reply to your MSN Echo, was busy typing this reply.
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I think mass-cloning is a terrible idea, but in limited quantities, cloning may have merit. Cloning an animal to give maximum control over testing various drug effects would be an example. Cloning a single organ for a transplant - yes; growing a 'blank' human for organs - no; regardless of morality, maintaining a whole, vegetative Human for any purpose is just ridiculously inefficient.
I agree. Although, like with genetic enhancement, this is probably an unstoppable wave that just hasn't hit us yet. The potential for profit is endless with cloning, and as soon as it becomes accepted and less of a moral issue in the eyes of the world, I expect we will see a variety of usage for the concept.
Sorry didn't reply to your MSN Echo, was busy typing this reply.
And just like that, my heart is broken :|
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I'm reasonably sure we'll be seeing "Clone-A-Heart/Kidney/Liver" fundraisers in the future :|
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The porn industry would be all over this. Forget real dolls.
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@Echo: Nuclear energy was supposed to be a revolution for humanity, and look where it's gotten us.
Cancers, terrorist threats and national tensions...etc.
I see the same thing happening with cloning, somehow it WILL find it's way into the wrong hands.
And there goes another revolution...
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@Demoniac: Are you sure terrorism and cancer evolved from nuclear technology? The problem about is it how people use its power. If people wouldn't be led to kill with anything they invent therapeutic cloning would be the way to go.
Since there will always be some really bad German scientist it will probably be cancelled as soon as it gets allowed again..
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If people wouldn't be led to kill with anything they invent
That's a big 'if' lol..
Since there will always be some really bad German scientist
Yes.. all german scientists are eeeeeeevil.. are you TRYING to troll at this point?
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If people wouldn't be led to kill with anything they invent
That's a big 'if' lol..
Since there will always be some really bad German scientist
Yes.. all german scientists are eeeeeeevil.. are you TRYING to troll at this point?
His point is that many inventions, although not initially intended for harm, end up being used that way if it has the potential. And there is always gonna be some shithead state or country behind it.
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His point is that many inventions, although not initially intended for harm, end up being used that way if it has the potential. And there is always gonna be some s**thead state or country behind it.
This and I am German myself. It's a known cliché even if what my country did in the past is comparable to what the USA did.
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I'm all for it. But really there's no point :-S
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If people wouldn't be led to kill with anything they invent
That's a big 'if' lol..
Since there will always be some really bad German scientist
Yes.. all german scientists are eeeeeeevil.. are you TRYING to troll at this point?
His point is that many inventions, although not initially intended for harm, end up being used that way if it has the potential. And there is always gonna be some s**thead state or country behind it.
Not that I give a shit, and I actually don't, but I'm glad someone, at last, tries to think about my main point instead of insulting me, or attacking my credibility.
You got it right, Echo, and no, DC, I never said that nuclear technology is the origin of cancers and terrorism, but I live in a town where, after Israel built a nuclear power plant, from which the winds head towards this part of Jordan, cancer rates went up by an aprox. 40%.
I know my maths, 40% is no way in hell a mistake or illusion.
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That's how the technology is being used by people. The technology itself is not evil.
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Yeah, well if they tried hard enough to prevent it from doing a shit storm of damage, it would have worked.
But they just move on to find countermeasures for it, and then profit off of both.
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That's the problem. But is there any possible solution to this problem that excludes war and stopping to trade with countries that are against it? In times in which people are trying to profit from everything you cannot argue with logical statements. It's not possible. You really need to threaten them and that makes me kind of sad..
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That's the problem. But is there any possible solution to this problem that excludes war and stopping to trade with countries that are against it? In times in which people are trying to profit from everything you cannot argue with logical statements. It's not possible. You really need to threaten them and that makes me kind of sad..
Huh, reality hurts.
If it weren't for how much we rely on technology nowadays, and if it were up to me, I'd just stop our technological advancement dead in its tracks.
But that's just me, and it's a highly improbable IF situation.
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You're probably going a bit too far by just stopping all technology. In complex society that we live in today, technology is a need.
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Isn't cloning someone essentially the same as them being born with an identical twin? In that case, isn't it just as much of a person as anyone else? If so, it would be morally reprehensible to farm them for organs or use them as soldiers. In the case of organ replacement, I imagine it would be more economically feasible to just grow individual organs (which if we can't do already, we're right on the doorstep for). In the case of soldiers, well...just stop fighting?
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Cloning is a general term that includes different parts of cloning.
1) What you've mentioned (like Dolly)
2) Therapeutic cloning (growing organs -> no need for organ donors)
3) Cloning is also found everywhere in nature
4) Mathematics uses the term cloning, too
Cloning like it's done in StarWars kinda sounds like the end of the world we know. Kinda awkward.
The main problem why cloning is forbidden by law in so many countries is that there are so many people that think cloning is just getting a copy of a plant, an animal or a human person. It'd be ethical incorrect to do so. Many follow this thoughts because of their believes. However, most don't even know the potential of cloning.
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cloning would make it a new person, so they have the exact same value.
sooo ya.... abusing them wouldn't be humane....
even cloning like in starwars would probably create a "new" individual, but thinks and acts the same of it's original (if it's some kind of instant cloning, copying every particle and recreating them).... soooo... this whole cloning idea doesn't work too well ;o
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Major, first of all the clone would only be the same in terms of the DNA. It would make its own experiences and would unlikely behave like the original. That's how it is.
The idea of StarWars is to create an exact copy of the same person and that very often. The point is that it is combined with a growing accelerator or otherwise the whole thing wouldn't turn out to be that great as it is in the movie. In fact we are not able to invent such an accelerator.
StarWars is just playing with the idea of a bigass army of clones that is not related to reality in any way so I don't even consider the possibility of a clone army.
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The idea of StarWars is to create an exact copy of the same person and that very often. The point is that it is combined with a growing accelerator or otherwise the whole thing wouldn't turn out to be that great as it is in the movie. In fact we are not able to invent such an accelerator.
StarWars is just playing with the idea of a bigass army of clones that is not related to reality in any way so I don't even consider the possibility of a clone army.
well, I haven't seen starwars so I wouldn't know. but in either way, it's a new human being, with it's own life, counciousness, feelings etc etc.
Major, first of all the clone would only be the same in terms of the DNA. It would make its own experiences and would unlikely behave like the original. That's how it is.
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you sure is a dumbfuck. I said, IF it was a clone made by copying every particle in one instance, the clone would be an exact copy.
why? (I'm sure you would ask that)
because the clone has the originals memories, experiances and everything else.
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You cannot get an exact clone by copying every molecule of the human body. It still would be a baby with the body of an adult and thus not very good as a soldier / your sexslave.
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You cannot get an exact clone by copying every molecule of the human body. It still would be a baby with the body of an adult and thus not very good as a soldier / your sexslave.
there's a difference between copying DNA and copying every particle/molecule....
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Yeah but you would never achieve what you were stating.