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Soldat Talk => General Discussions => Topic started by: Poop on August 13, 2011, 08:36:23 pm

Title: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Poop on August 13, 2011, 08:36:23 pm
I think it may perhaps be better to discuss this in a separate thread than the news topic.

I strongly feel that this 16:9 resolution change should be a server option for a variety of reasons I will explain below. I am not a developer, I have NO f**kING CLUE how much time and effort will go into making it a server option, or whether it is even possible. If it is impossible to make it a server option due to any of the variables above, then keep it at 4:3.

Here is why:

1. The weapon balance is made for a 4:3 resolution. It has taken several years and several versions to get the weapon mod to this point of balance. It will be impossible to balance the weapons soon enough with the 16:9 resolution change, infact it will probably take several versions. M79 and Spas specifically go to s**t. Both of these weapons rely on the element of surprise to kill the opponent. If the opponent sees you 1-2 seconds earlier, than these weapons really have very little chance to do much. Every weapon will be effected. Minime was nerfed in the most recent weapon balance because of its overusage, but now that nerf probably means nothing because it has the highest range of all weapons and this extra field of vision will mean more people moving towards it.

2. The maps are made for a 4:3 resolution. Suddenly a player going mid on Death2 can see all the action top route (And pretty much the whole map). When you spawn on ash, you see everyone spawning on the opponents team. These are just a few examples, I have not really gone through all the maps, but I can be certain that this extra field of vision will have a HUGE impact on how maps are played. Maps are designed with a 4:3 resolution in mind, and ALL testing done on the maps before making them default was on the 4:3 resolution. Perhaps the aggregate effect on the gameplay will be positive, but it is more likely to be negative. If the latter is the case, then with this being a server option atleast people have an option of disabling it.

3. Specops brough up a point where he mentioned that resolution increases are only allowed for registered players. I am not sure if the lowest widescreen resolution will be allowed to unregistered people or not, but if not then suddenly you have to pay and register otherwise you are put at a disadvantage.

EDIT: Here is how much more you can see:

(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5522/169g.png)
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 13, 2011, 09:27:32 pm
1.
well, to be honest, the wm between the weapons has been pretty good for a long time. It's only been 1 or 2 weapons that's been ridiculously overpowered at a time.
This version it was minimi and spas in 1.4.2 it was steyr and ruger.. Read what I write in p.s if you want my veiw on minimi.

The balance heavily depends on map, even with this extended vision M79 will still be very useful on Nuubia, because of it's 1 hit kill and that nuubia has a lot of things to hide at.
All weapons shouldn't be good on all maps, I'm sure you're already aware of it. This will just mean that you can't take spas on as many maps.

I don't think you'll need to change a lot to the balance at all, mostly just the bullet damage reduction should kick in as normal, and possibly making the ranged weapons very very slightly weaker. You could also consider to boost mp5, spas and m79's bullet speed slightly.

And no, minimi will only be popular at the start. Ak will fill it's role (even if it would still be 4:3) and probably be even more overused.

2.
Well, you can't magically shoot trough polygons. Just because you know where your opponent is doesn't mean you can kill him. - and yes, me and tanaka tested this a little bit on d2, spas can still put up a fight at top.... and I was using 16:9 and tanaka 4:3....
Everyone sprays at those positions anyway, and you can hear where somebody if somebody is using jet or not.

If you tested the maps before you made them default then...
I really wonder who the f**k let B2b pass... it's such a horribly unbalanced map and has pretty bad game play (Mainly because the left side is way better than the right side).
Yeah, you've let it be in for so many versions now, while others been taken out.

3.
Just make 16:9 resolution the default one then.


p.s:
Minimi is the fastest weapon to kill with (except for spas) and had the best accuracy while also having a large clip size.
Even tho it might not be theoretically the fastest weapon to kill with, it really is.

As for example, if I felt that I needed to kill people faster (if they're spas rushing or something), I would just switch away from mp5 into minimi instead (Low on Rotten) because it kills so much faster.

So it isn't just a little overpowered, it is extremely overpowered.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: chutem on August 13, 2011, 10:19:10 pm
I don't think making it a server option will fix anything, all you will end up with is a more fractured community, some who play 4:3, and others which play 16:9, as the gameplay will be different due to vision and possible new weapon balances.

Really I think it would be better to discuss whether 4:3 or 16:9 would be better, need to play with some people with this newfangled view, then come back and see how I feel, but at the moment, I think it seems like a fine idea.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Finvagarty on August 14, 2011, 12:07:45 am
Agreed with Poop, definitely make it _atleast_ a server option.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: 12th_account on August 14, 2011, 01:25:40 am
Don't make it a server option. There's already too many (http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=39684.msg490118#msg490118) options that don't need to be options. And it'd fragment the community.

Anyway, I'd vote for Soldat sticking with a 4:3 ratio for 1.6 and just adding black bars whenever the resolution doesn't match the game. That way it'd be fair and still look great on resolutions with ratios such as 16:9 (http://skoskav.org/etc/soldat/etc/widescreen-done-right.png) and 5:4 (http://skoskav.org/etc/soldat/etc/widescreen-done-right-tall.png).

When it's time for 1.6.1 switch Soldat's view to 16:9 to catch up with the times. We would need time to balance that.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Leo on August 14, 2011, 02:44:33 am
I agree with Poop and, as a server operator, I would disable this for my servers. Whatever you guys say it IS unfair for people with older screens. Soldat is a game made, how many, 10 years ago ? Game and maps are made for 4:3.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Fryer on August 14, 2011, 03:14:19 am
Here's my opinion on the matter after playing a few gathers and reading what people had to say about it:
I think that pushing the aspect ratio all the way to 16:9 may indeed be just a bit too much, for various reasons already mentioned by others. I also think that just keeping it at 4:3 will just make the game look old and unattractive to new as well as some old players using screens with a larger ratio.

IMO Soldat should use 16:10 as the default fixed resolution, meaning that if you use anything other than that, black bars should be added to the sides of the screen.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: croat1gamer on August 14, 2011, 03:23:32 am
Reminds me, how did the previous versions of Soldat solve the aspect ratio thingy?
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 14, 2011, 04:01:01 am
Here's my opinion on the matter after playing a few gathers and reading what people had to say about it:
I think that pushing the aspect ratio all the way to 16:9 may indeed be just a bit too much, for various reasons already mentioned by others. I also think that just keeping it at 4:3 will just make the game look old and unattractive to new as well as some old players using screens with a larger ratio.

IMO Soldat should use 16:10 as the default fixed resolution, meaning that if you use anything other than that, black bars should be added to the sides of the screen.
Sounds good :3...
that'd be a 20% vision increase instead of 33%.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Falcon` on August 14, 2011, 04:06:00 am
It's very likely that many players play 1.5.0 with custom resolution (16:10 or 16:9) as you can force it by editing soldat.ini by hand. I think that soldat should aim for wide screen resolutions compatibility as i bet that majority of us will use it. Just... rise your hand if you have non-panoramic monitor, come on.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Bistoufly on August 14, 2011, 04:59:36 am
Non-wide screen user reporting in.

Honestly, if I was on a wide screen, I would be all for it.

But on my 4:3, Soldat is unplayable in the new version.
I really tried. But it's too small. The vertical shrink is just too much.
And using 16:10 instead of 16:9 won't change that, sorry.

I'm not worried bout the implication regarding gameplay and weapon balance.
I'm worried about me and the other non-wide screen users.

Note: I'm on a 21 inch monitor. ( I just can't imagine on a 19 or 17 inch screen! )

Conclusion: If everyone was on a wide screen. This would be a welcome improvement.

But it's not the case. And doing changes at the expand of a part of the players is unfair and a wrong move.

It also piss me off because I bought a 4:3 screen for 100 euros especially for soldat.
It has the best refresh rates available on the market ( 800x600@200hz !!)
The famous iijama vision master pro 514.
And I can't imagine playing Soldat on any other screen.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 14, 2011, 05:39:49 am
(http://img7.imagebanana.com/img/jsurlbmr/Ratios.png)
Red = 4:3                                                                                                                                Green = 16:10       Yellow = 16:9
(http://img7.imagebanana.com/img/97z63g0h/ratios2.png)
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Monsteri on August 14, 2011, 05:56:51 am
Why not just black bars in 16:9? I don't have that.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Falcon` on August 14, 2011, 06:06:40 am
i still say that custom mods with pink nades and vests and all that sutff give you much more advantage than seeing 33% farther. Most of the players have a tunnel vision anyway.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Mittsu on August 14, 2011, 06:12:03 am
i have 16:10 screen, using 1024x768 for soldat (fullscreen) and never had any black bars, so i don't really understand what's going on
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Vv00t-SN on August 14, 2011, 06:23:06 am
Making it optional will simply result in the option being ticked off by default for all major leagues.

cf.:
Quote
SCTFL RULES
...
* HealthCooldown is 0.
...

PS: The weapon balance is not an argument, considering everything is changed radically in this RC version due to "Bink=0" - whether that is a final decision I dont know of course. Hope not.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: EmDzej on August 14, 2011, 07:15:51 am
When it's time for 1.6.1 switch Soldat's view to 16:9 to catch up with the times. We would need time to balance that.

We don't need no catching up with times, Soldat is 2d game, catch up that. The game is already loosing it's speed. Don't all the reviews says it's "One of the most addictive and fast-paced online multiplayer experiences ever created.". Let's not make it more boring by decreasing the element of surprise which every good action game need it.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 14, 2011, 07:19:47 am
When it's time for 1.6.1 switch Soldat's view to 16:9 to catch up with the times. We would need time to balance that.

We don't need no catching up with times, Soldat is 2d game, catch up that. The game is already loosing it's speed. Don't all the reviews says it's "One of the most addictive and fast-paced online multiplayer experiences ever created.". Let's not make it more boring by decreasing the element of surprise which every good action game need it.
the game is way faster now than it was during 1.2.1....
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: 12th_account on August 14, 2011, 08:38:40 am
When it's time for 1.6.1 switch Soldat's view to 16:9 to catch up with the times. We would need time to balance that.

We don't need no catching up with times, Soldat is 2d game, catch up that. The game is already loosing it's speed. Don't all the reviews says it's "One of the most addictive and fast-paced online multiplayer experiences ever created.". Let's not make it more boring by decreasing the element of surprise which every good action game need it.

Was referring to Soldat being behind in terms of HCI and optimizing it for post-2005 monitors and hardware. And there's nothing anachronistic about being a 2D game in 2011.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 14, 2011, 03:42:41 pm
If it is alot of effort to make it a server option, then keep it 4:3, simply for the fact that the weapon balance and all maps are made for 4:3 and not 16:9.
Well, after giving it another thought I somewhat agree about the maps - I know some maps have spots designed with a specific view distance in mind, so increased view distance would have a bit of an advantage in this case. But that isn't very common, and you probably won't notice the difference on most maps.
As for weapon balance - I don't think it has a significant enough impact to worry about it, EXCEPT for barrett. Barrett got a massive increase in zoom.

Possible solutions:when using 16:9 aspect ratio - increase view distance not in front, but behind the soldier. So if you aim as far as you can - in both ratios you'll only see 640 pixels ahead, but in 16:9 you'd also see about 60 pixels behind your soldier. Or distribute the extra view distance between in-front and behind the soldier, to make it even less noticeable. A 16:10 ratio will even further decrease that advantage.

I understand that the way it's currently done it does give an advantage to widescreen users, but widescreen ratio just feels better for the eyes IMHO. It feels more modern and hi-res this way. I like it, even though I play on a 5:4 monitor, which is as close to a square as you can get with displays.

Instead of just trashing that new feature - why not readjusting to it? It might be uncomfortable now, but it'll be worth it in the long run. If some maps will really get badly broken because of that - tweaking them should be an easy fix.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Veritas on August 14, 2011, 03:53:45 pm
Poop can you edit the OP to include a poll for who has 4:3/16:9/16:10 monitors to get an idea of what audience we should be targeting here

also 16:10 superiority

Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 14, 2011, 03:59:15 pm
Poop can you edit the OP to include a poll for who has 4:3/16:9/16:10 monitors to get an idea of what audience we should be targeting here
That probably won't work, here's why:
1) Like I said, I have a 5:4 monitor, but I still much prefer playing in widescreen resolution, so my vote wouldn't tell the devs anything. Same might go for other voters.

2) Soldat Forums consists mostly of competitive/league/gather players and just hardcore fans who are used to the game as it is now and don't want it to change. For accurate vote results we'll also need more casual players to take part in it, which isn't going to happen for reasons you probably know yourself.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Veritas on August 14, 2011, 04:09:22 pm
how does a poll saying "I have X size monitor" not work
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 14, 2011, 04:13:30 pm
It won't say anything about what players actually want.
"What I have" does not equal "What I want"
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Fryer on August 14, 2011, 04:18:54 pm
Screenshot from the possible "limit aim" solution to the problem:
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/1640/aimwidescreen.png)
Doing this would give the small advantage of being able to see a bit of what's behind you, but it's a much smaller advantage than the previous one.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Falcon` on August 14, 2011, 04:47:33 pm
Another partial solution that came into my mind is to make 16:10 or 16:9 default and on 4:3 monitors just fill the strips (partially) with interface just by moving it below the game screen. Fair enough for us, fair enough for you.

Though i still say that this does NOT give you that much advantage. Soldat is too fast-paced to notice those differences, maybe except Barret but that's easy to fix (just measure zoom in pixels, not "screens away"). You usually aim at your enemy when he's closer to you than entire screen away (unless you spray) what recounting between resolutions give you not that big amounts of distance. It may be far more noticeable during 1 v 1 leagues as you just focus on killing one enemy, but CTF? I hardly believe it.

However, that's what for RC is. To test it first, judge by yourself and then give good verdict.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ExHunter on August 14, 2011, 04:58:36 pm
Please correct me if I'm wrong: but aren't widescreens supposed to stretch only what you can see without widescreens and not to give more "view"?
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 14, 2011, 04:59:38 pm
Please correct me if I'm wrong: but aren't widescreens supposed to stretch only what you can see without widescreens and not to give more "view"?
That's the way widescreen worked before 1.6, but stretched screen looks absolutely horrid.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: pavliko on August 14, 2011, 05:53:19 pm
How about making soldat 16:9 default and disable 4:3?
This way there will be no problems with 4:3 users, sure their screen will look a bit hd for a 4:3 monitor but why not? D:

As time will pass people will get used to 16:9 and enough maps will be made/changed.

I just think that there will be less problems when 4:3 won't exist at all
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Rayben on August 14, 2011, 05:55:05 pm
Screenshot from the possible "limit aim" solution to the problem:
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/1640/aimwidescreen.png)
Doing this would give the small advantage of being able to see a bit of what's behind you, but it's a much smaller advantage than the previous one.

Nice one
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Poop on August 14, 2011, 06:23:24 pm
If the resolution change will not be a server option, and we are not going back to 4:3, then I am completely in favor of the idea to show the same limited distance forward, and show the extra width behind you.

Good idea whoever came up with that, as fortunately that would not completely f**k up the weapon balance and impact the maps nearly as much.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 14, 2011, 11:33:15 pm
If the resolution change will not be a server option, and we are not going back to 4:3, then I am completely in favor of the idea to show the same limited distance forward, and show the extra width behind you.

Good idea whoever came up with that, as fortunately that would not completely f**k up the weapon balance and impact the maps nearly as much.
well, you've taken quite a big step in weapon balance, by making everything selfbinkless.
I don't think this "will ruin our balance" will work, since there are so many maps that aren't balanced at the slightest (b2b, dd2, viet). And about the wm you have no idea about.
Imo it's better to allow 16:10 and then adjust for it in the next version (The devs could maybe just release a very small patch, mostly a wm and map patch), than staying with 4:3 forever for no reason other than "you'll break a broken thing".
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: RemiX on August 15, 2011, 03:34:22 am
I'm more in favor of no 16:9 resolution period. People already mod there soldat like none other and now some peoples range of view would be better. Even if there view is greater from behind a advantage is an advantage and I don't see why you would purposely give an advantage to a certain group.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 15, 2011, 04:02:57 am
I'm more in favor of no 16:9 resolution period. People already mod there soldat like none other and now some peoples range of view would be better. Even if there view is greater from behind a advantage is an advantage and I don't see why you would purposely give an advantage to a certain group.
there's absolutely nothing that prevents you from using 16:9.
The only reason why it shouldn't be changed is due to map balance and weapons balance.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: pavliko on August 15, 2011, 04:04:05 am
RemiX that certain group has money to buy 16:9 equipment, they are more than some people who play soldat for free with a cracked reg key :>
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Bistoufly on August 15, 2011, 05:02:42 am
I'm more in favor of no 16:9 resolution period. People already mod there soldat like none other and now some peoples range of view would be better. Even if there view is greater from behind a advantage is an advantage and I don't see why you would purposely give an advantage to a certain group.
there's absolutely nothing that prevents you from using 16:9.
The only reason why it shouldn't be changed is due to map balance and weapons balance.
That's entirely false.
The problem is the bars on 4:3 screen but mostly the drastic vertical shrink. Making the gosteks and polygons tiny.
To the point it's unplayable on a 21 inch screen.




Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: zakath on August 15, 2011, 05:08:42 am
RemiX that certain group has money to buy 16:9 equipment, they are more than some people who play soldat for free with a cracked reg key :>

ppl who play with a cracked regkey have imho forfeited their right to have a opinion on the game.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ramirez on August 15, 2011, 05:16:22 am
The solution Fryer showed fixes the issue with maps being designed for 4:3 as well as the weapon balance issue neatly. There's practically no advantage of having a bit more view space behind your soldier in competitive play. There might a slight advantage in gamemodes like DM where you usually don't just move from one direction to the other, but it's not as big an issue in the first place. Most important thing is that the weapon balance won't be messed up imo.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: tk on August 15, 2011, 06:10:36 am
Soldat looks like s**t on panoramic monitor. Ofcourse, you may always change your monitor/gfx card settings so it displays in 4x3 format, however it's uncomfortable. 16x9 support should be added, without any serverside settings.

To compensate the balance issues I suggest something like this: (attachment)

Complete area of displayed map would remain the same.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 15, 2011, 06:40:00 am
I'm more in favor of no 16:9 resolution period. People already mod there soldat like none other and now some peoples range of view would be better. Even if there view is greater from behind a advantage is an advantage and I don't see why you would purposely give an advantage to a certain group.
there's absolutely nothing that prevents you from using 16:9.
The only reason why it shouldn't be changed is due to map balance and weapons balance.
That's entirely false.
The problem is the bars on 4:3 screen but mostly the drastic vertical shrink. Making the gosteks and polygons tiny.
To the point it's unplayable on a 21 inch screen.
eh, I played on a 11" ws notebook before, in windowed mode. If you modify your game you'll still be able to see everything, just a bit harder I guess.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Monsteri on August 15, 2011, 08:46:07 am
I support the Fryer's idea about the extra resolution going behind the back of the player. It's great!
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Mittsu on August 15, 2011, 09:00:27 am
it's Loner's idea, at least give him the credit ;)
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Furai on August 15, 2011, 09:33:11 am
Meh, I like widescreen as it is handled now, no need to change it, imo.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Xdada on August 15, 2011, 02:20:53 pm
i have 16:10 screen, using 1024x768 for soldat (fullscreen) and never had any black bars, so i don't really understand what's going on
As whether the game uses widescreen or not depends on the used resolution, you will not get any black bars with a 4:3 resolution (such as 1024x768) regardless of the physical dimensions of the monitor's screen; the way a resolution is handled depends on your monitor( and drivers), on a higher ratio monitor (such as yours) a 4:3 image would be either 'letter-boxed' (horizontal black bars to compensate) or stretched(your case). If the chosen resolution is beyond a lower or higher ratio-limit (<4:3 or >16:9) then the game adjusts the image output itself and applies either letter-boxing or stretching. (Oddly enough, in case of ratios above 16:9, the image that is letter-boxed is in a ratio of 4:3 instead of 16:9, resulting in large horizontal bars even if the ratio is just barely above 16:9. Ratios below 4:3 result in stretching. If it's >4:3 but smaller than 16:9 then the perspective's width depends on the ratio and no letter-boxing is applied (you see more than in case of 4:3 ratio but less than with 16:9 ratio).)

Edit: Added note about the >4:3 and <16:9 case
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Fryer on August 15, 2011, 08:17:15 pm
it's Loner's idea, at least give him the credit ;)
Actually, we both got the idea. (I coded it before reading his post.) :)
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Ouchek on August 16, 2011, 09:21:38 am
I don't see how making it an option would harm the community in any way? It would just make the competitive gaming fairer because if you guys indeed add this feature 4:3 users are very disadvantaged....
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 16, 2011, 11:13:34 am
I don't see how making it an option would harm the community in any way? It would just make the competitive gaming fairer because if you guys indeed add this feature 4:3 users are very disadvantaged....
then use 16:9 aspect ratio, it's not that god damn hard.
You're whining about something not being comfortable for you, you have no backing by anyone else. The wm and maps not being made for an extended view was kind of an argument, but your current "I don't wanna play in 16:9 on my 4:3 screen" is just an extremely retarded argument.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Falcon` on August 16, 2011, 05:46:40 pm
Actually he may say "then why can't YOU play 4:3 on your's instead?".
I think that Loner's/Fryer's idea with placing additional space behind the player is fair enough
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 16, 2011, 05:58:09 pm
Actually he may say "then why can't YOU play 4:3 on your's instead?".
I think that Loner's/Fryer's idea with placing additional space behind the player is fair enough
why would I play 4:3 if there's 16:9?
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 16, 2011, 05:58:51 pm
16:9 is the future, 16:9 is simply better.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Bistoufly on August 17, 2011, 06:57:13 am
I don't see how making it an option would harm the community in any way? It would just make the competitive gaming fairer because if you guys indeed add this feature 4:3 users are very disadvantaged....
then use 16:9 aspect ratio, it's not that god damn hard.
You're whining about something not being comfortable for you, you have no backing by anyone else. The wm and maps not being made for an extended view was kind of an argument, but your current "I don't wanna play in 16:9 on my 4:3 screen" is just an extremely retarded argument.
What the hell?
Are you omniscient? You know how people with 4:3 screen feel? You're inside their head?

For one, the "I don't wanna play in 16:9 on my 4:3 screen" argument that you call "extremely retarted":
Is the one and only reason I am against that new widescreen implementation.

As an hide and seek player,I like the idea of seeing further, it gives more emphasis on running skills and less on surprise attacks, boosts and other lame tactics.

Before the new implementation, I was wishing for a bigger field of view.

But now that I actually tested it, I'm strongly against it. And consider it as a big deal.

The reason is that on a 4:3 screen the game becomes too small to be comfortable.
Tested with soldat windowed (800x480) on a 800x600 desktop resolution. On a 21 inch 4:3 monitor.


Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 17, 2011, 07:42:02 am
I don't see how making it an option would harm the community in any way? It would just make the competitive gaming fairer because if you guys indeed add this feature 4:3 users are very disadvantaged....
then use 16:9 aspect ratio, it's not that god damn hard.
You're whining about something not being comfortable for you, you have no backing by anyone else. The wm and maps not being made for an extended view was kind of an argument, but your current "I don't wanna play in 16:9 on my 4:3 screen" is just an extremely retarded argument.
What the hell?
Are you omniscient? You know how people with 4:3 screen feel? You're inside their head?

For one, the "I don't wanna play in 16:9 on my 4:3 screen" argument that you call "extremely retarted":
Is the one and only reason I am against that new widescreen implementation.
I don't need to know how a person feels or think to look at something objectively, even if I knew how the person felt, I shouldn't take that into account.
The argument "I don't want x to change because 'I'm personally not comfortable with it/it isn't perfect for me'." is just selfish and childish.

I like the reason you're fighting for to keep 4:3 as the only aspect ratio.

The reason is that on a 4:3 screen the game becomes too small to be comfortable.
Tested with soldat windowed (800x480) on a 800x600 desktop resolution. On a 21 inch 4:3 monitor.
well, your soldat screen will be 82% of what a 16:9 screen would see if it was running soldat in 4:3.... so the 16:9 will have a 22% larger screen while running the game in 4:3 than the 4:3 screen running the game in 16:9.
I guess somebody could do the maths better. :p
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: tk on August 17, 2011, 07:58:13 am
Quote
well, your soldat screen will be 82% of what a 16:9 screen would see if it was running soldat in 4:3.... so the 16:9 will have a 22% larger screen while running the game in 4:3 than the 4:3 screen running the game in 16:9.
I guess somebody could do the maths better. :p

Then cut some top and bottom in 16:9 so displayed area is the same as in 4:3 (my previous post)
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 17, 2011, 10:12:01 am
there are no fucking balance issues, are you guys completely fucking retarded? Fryer fixed the balance issue with 16:9 resolution, all what's left is whiny 4:3 users that don't want to use 16:9.

Personally I play with 84% resize, so virtually my soldat screen is as big as Bistoufly, so I know he just talks bullshit.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 17, 2011, 12:40:36 pm
Quote
well, your soldat screen will be 82% of what a 16:9 screen would see if it was running soldat in 4:3.... so the 16:9 will have a 22% larger screen while running the game in 4:3 than the 4:3 screen running the game in 16:9.
I guess somebody could do the maths better. :p

Then cut some top and bottom in 16:9 so displayed area is the same as in 4:3 (my previous post)
I'm against that, as it doesn't really remove the advantage widescreen users have, so on some maps widescreen users will do better (TW maps for example) and on some maps non-widescreen users will have an advantage.

there are no f**king balance issues, are you guys completely f**king retarded?
No need to rage. :/
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Bistoufly on August 17, 2011, 01:27:31 pm
there are no f**king balance issues, are you guys completely f**king retarded? Fryer fixed the balance issue with 16:9 resolution, all what's left is whiny 4:3 users that don't want to use 16:9.

Personally I play with 84% resize, so virtually my soldat screen is as big as Bistoufly, so I know he just talks bulls**t.

That makes no sense.
I already took my time to explain to you that I like the increase in view gameplay-wise. ( Tho it would be better if there was also a vertical gain )



If I was on a 16:9 widescreen. I would have no problem with this new feature.

So, if I understand correctly, you have no problem to play Soldat in a small window. Fine.
Different tastes, different styles, whatever float your boat.

I'm not like you. I can't play with such a small sized window. I tried. And I just can't.

Now if you would be kind and mature enough to respect others experience and opinion. I would gladly continue this conversation.
e.g.: refrain from saying things like:

-"I know he just talks bulls**t"
-"are you guys completely f**king retarded?"
-" is just selfish and childish."

Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Ricrylonten on August 17, 2011, 05:25:07 pm
Please disregard anything Banana-san aka ginn has to say—I mean really, please, do not reply to his posts. Don't even read them.

- Sincerely, the entire competitive community
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 18, 2011, 02:09:31 am
Please disregard anything Banana-san aka ginn has to say—I mean really, please, do not reply to his posts. Don't even read them.

- Sincerely, the entire competitive community
ricr, you're not one to talk. If I remember correctly (and my movie) you banned me for being suspicious (for hacking) and banned me from #sna.gather.
Besides, it's mostly the part of the community that barely can reach the play offs and can't deal with getting beaten by a troll that resorts into "hating" me.

Now if you would be kind and mature enough to respect others experience and opinion. I would gladly continue this conversation.
e.g.: refrain from saying things like:

-"I know he just talks bulls**t"
-"are you guys completely f**king retarded?"
-" is just selfish and childish."
I can't argue with somebody who cannot live with something that isn't perfect for them. You need understand that you can get used to anything at all, right now it's just about you not willing to try a change.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: soulblade on August 18, 2011, 07:57:28 am
I like Fryer/Loner 's idea as well. It's fair for everyone and won't be accountable for any weapon balance screw ups. 4:3 users will only have a tiny disadvantage now and they are able to run in 16:9 anyway, but really everyone should have a widescreen by now.
Get with times people!
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 18, 2011, 06:01:09 pm
My only concern about my/fryer's idea is that it'll help snipers/campers/sprayers notice enemies behind them faster, at least with current increase. In some cases it would save their lives. Personally I'd still prefer if extra view distance was evenly distributed between both sides, so that neither side would have a big enough increase to affect the balance.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: soulblade on August 18, 2011, 10:34:05 pm
Just my two pennies worth, but usually the "sneak" attacks that are most effective are those coming from above or below e.g. coming from roof on B2b/Equinox/Voland or from low on Viet. There's no increase in view distance vertically so "sneak" attacks should work just as well as before. Not to mention that in ctf there isn't really much behind the spawn point to see, so I don't see it being affected much.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 18, 2011, 10:54:01 pm
Just my 2 cents, but usually the "sneak" attacks that are most effective are those coming from above or below e.g. coming from roof on B2b/Equinox/Voland, or from low on Viet. In ctf there isn't really much behind the spawn point to see, so I don't see it being affected much.
Well in ctf - maybe, on some maps. But keep in mind other gamemodes.
Personally, when ambushing an enemy I like to get closer and then unload a whole clip from close range or just chainsaw him to pieces. You know how in Soldat outcome is often decided by a few split seconds, and this much extra view gives the enemy enough time to notice you sooner and do a roll that might save his life.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 19, 2011, 05:28:06 am
My only concern about my/fryer's idea is that it'll help snipers/campers/sprayers notice enemies behind them faster, at least with current increase. In some cases it would save their lives. Personally I'd still prefer if extra view distance was evenly distributed between both sides, so that neither side would have a big enough increase to affect the balance.
this doesn't affect the barrett though.... you shouldn't be concerned about if a few players aren't willing to play in 16:9, the concern is the balance.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 19, 2011, 04:08:15 pm
What I mean is that ambushing campers from behind will become harder. It's not about 4:3 vs 16:9, it's about player vs camper/sniper. Campers already have the advantage of being hidden and getting a chance to strike first. Now they get an additional advantage by being able to see what's behind them and have extra time to dodge an attack or notice an enemy trying to sneak by. On some maps it can be critical.

view-behind.jpg:
inf_Fortress. What I've shown on the attached pics is a common area for blues to camp in, but the disadvantage is that you can only see one entrance at once. With all of the extra view distance added behind soldier, you can easily see the tunnel behind while still aiming at the other entrance.

view-even.jpg:
With view distance evenly distributed between both sides of the screen, extra view behind won't be enough to see past walls or notice the enemy quickly enough on most maps, while extra view ahead won't be enough to impact map and weapon balance significantly.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Falcon` on August 19, 2011, 04:32:01 pm
when you're camping you're most likely focused on what's going on in front of you. I don't think that you'll react quickly enough. Especially when you're sitting with barret on zoom
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 19, 2011, 04:35:43 pm
when you're camping you're most likely focused on what's going on in front of you. I don't think that you'll react quickly enough. Especially when you're sitting with barret on zoom
With barret zoom - no, but what about other guns like LAW or M79? There's also such thing as side vision. You may be looking in front of you, but you can still notice a small red spot behind you with a corner of your eye, especially if you play in a small window.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: soulblade on August 19, 2011, 04:57:40 pm
IMO The difference it will make in Inf or game modes other than ctf is unimportant.

The most common whining in public servers was about m79ers because of the insta-death it brought and the ease of spawning, but using m79 is a lot harder when it comes to competitive ctf.

If the weapon balance was based on public servers or other game modes then m79 might have had some crazy nerf on it by now; as it is, the weapon balance has been modelled on the ctf competitive scene. Since this new view distance will affect the weapon balance, workarounds should be made with ctf the top priority. IMO having the view distance increase behind the player will give minimal advantage to those with 16:9 because rarely are players able to sneak from there even at 4:3. Also, any increase in the view distance in front of the player will mean the weapon balance could have to be completely remade, which has been explained enough already by other guys here.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 19, 2011, 04:59:41 pm
I'm a competitive CTFer who doesn't give a damn about everybody else.
Are you serious?


Also I've seen cases when players snuck up from behind and got a successful kill. I understand why it might not happen competitive CTF, but again - other game modes matter.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: soulblade on August 19, 2011, 05:04:49 pm
I'm a competitive CTFer who doesn't give a damn about everybody else.
Are you serious?


Also I've seen cases when players snuck up from behind and got a successful kill. I understand why it might nit happen competitive CTF, but again - other game modes matter.
I'd rather base any fixes on the most popular gamemode rather than one that is barely played at all. Not sure how that is ignorant of me.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 19, 2011, 05:12:42 pm
I'm a competitive CTFer who doesn't give a damn about everybody else.
Are you serious?


Also I've seen cases when players snuck up from behind and got a successful kill. I understand why it might nit happen competitive CTF, but again - other game modes matter.
I'd rather base any fixes on the most popular gamemode rather than one that is barely played at all. Not sure how that is ignorant of me.
Quite ignorant, I'm honestly surprised. DM and INF are very popular as well, or at least used to be before most of the regular players switched to gathers or quit the game altogether. Even pointmatch and HTF had players back in the days. The fact that CTF is more popular than other gamemodes doesn't mean they should just be left to rot.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: amb2010 on August 19, 2011, 05:28:28 pm
I'd rather base any fixes on the most popular gamemode rather than one that is barely played at all. Not sure how that is ignorant of me.

I'd rather ignorant people didn't exist but hey, obviously that ain't gonna happen any time soon so :P

Other game-modes do matter. Sure they may not be as popular as other ones for what ever reason, but they are still there and should not be ignored. Soldat is Soldat. It *has* INF and DM in it, they are just as much part of the game as CTF is. Of course this isn't a thread for CTF vs INF, it's about 16:9 resolutions and the added benefits it gives over people not using it.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 19, 2011, 05:34:29 pm
It would be better to make a new map-pack for the less played modes, rather than taking a bigger risk (the new wm is a 'test') in the 'competitive' modes.
The level on publics is very low, so I doubt even half of them have developed peripheral vision yet. Which kinda makes that advantage useless.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: soulblade on August 19, 2011, 05:46:28 pm
I'm a competitive CTFer who doesn't give a damn about everybody else.
Are you serious?


Also I've seen cases when players snuck up from behind and got a successful kill. I understand why it might nit happen competitive CTF, but again - other game modes matter.
I'd rather base any fixes on the most popular gamemode rather than one that is barely played at all. Not sure how that is ignorant of me.
Quite ignorant, I'm honestly surprised. DM and INF are very popular as well, or at least used to be before most of the regular players switched to gathers or quit the game altogether. Even pointmatch and HTF had players back in the days. The fact that CTF is more popular than other gamemodes doesn't mean they should just be left to rot.
You should know that in any sport/competitive game that rules are there to keep the game fair and consistent. Even small changes can have drastic repercussions in the competitive scene as the standard is so high that the difference between winning and losing is very small.

Having some extra view distance behind the player isn't going to "rot" other game modes at all. They aren't played at such a high level, so changes to the game will hurt them less and I really don't think it will hurt them at all.

If your view distance was used, it would actually have a worse affect on soldat as EVERYbody in EVERY game mode would have to relearn how to play and relearn how to aim. Whereas, having the extra view distance only behind the player will not affect aim OR the weapon balance OR the most popular game mode. Your the one who is ignorant.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: amb2010 on August 19, 2011, 05:50:01 pm
Cause you know things like aim-lag and what not didn't affect gameplay at all right? That's what happens when a game isn't complete and new features are to be added. They *affect* gameplay eventually and people will adjust to them eventually. If the feature added creates unfairness for people, it should be removed/changed to ensure fair play. If the only way to ensure fair play is changing how gameplay functions and that's the only solution then it should be added. Since while it requires learning how to play, *everyone* is on equal terms.

In American Football spearing is not allowed, it used to be and people were used to being able to tackle that way (driving your head/helmet into their gut, very painful and dangerous) but they added the rule in. So because it would require people needing to relearn how to play it shouldn't be changed? I find that ridiculous. That's the nature of games, especially highly competitive games, as you said. Even small changes affect gameplay greatly so why does it matter if a big one comes along and affects gameplay as well?

Also, loner said just because they aren't as popular they shouldn't be left to rot, as in not ignored as you suggest. Ergo the "ignorance" since you think nothing but CTF matters.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: soulblade on August 19, 2011, 06:10:19 pm
Cause you know things like aim-lag and what not didn't affect gameplay at all right? That's what happens when a game isn't complete and new features are to be added. They *affect* gameplay eventually and people will adjust to them eventually. If the feature is to ensure fairness for everyone, then regardless of the change to the game it should be added. Football (american that is) used to allow tackles to the back of the knee, now it doesn't. It was added in for safety and people had to adjust to learn to the new rules. So just because it changes gameplay it shouldn't be added? I find that kind of ridiculous.
Since when was aim-lag a part of Soldat? Yea people eventually got used to a part of Soldat that doesn't exist. Nice point thanks.
(FYI it was an idea that was never implemented because it was rubbish.)

With Loner's idea all 4:3 users will see less in front of them and be at a disadvantage in every fire fight. Hmm, hardly something players can just adjust to you know since there aren't any new skills to learn. Unless buying a new widescreen monitor counts as a skill?
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: amb2010 on August 19, 2011, 06:17:32 pm
It *was* implemented in a beta but removed due to rubbish, the point still stands. Not adding features because it requires people relearning how to play is a poor decision. Perhaps aim-lag was a poor example since it wasn't being implemented to fix things but was a "I think this is cool" addition.

I was in no way supporting Loner's idea or anyone's idea, I was merely stating that this isn't a CTF vs INF discussion, adding features based solely on CTF is a stupid thing to do and not changing features to ensure fair play, even if they will cause people to need to relearn how to play, is also a stupid idea. That was it. As for my stance on 16:9, I think it should be removed entirely. I see no fair way to ensure 16:9 uses don't have an advantage and 4:3 users don't get a disadvantage. I think nothing is wrong with 4:3 picture boxed on widescreen monitors.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 19, 2011, 06:18:06 pm
You should know that in any sport/competitive game that rules are there to keep the game fair and consistent. Even small changes can have drastic repercussions in the competitive scene as the standard is so high that the difference between winning and losing is very small.
Soldat is first of all a game. It was not made to be a sport, it was made so that players of all kinds could just play and have fun. If you look at it as a sport - even in real-life sports there are occasional changes to rules. Give me an example where a small change could have "drastic repercussions", because I really fail to see how a very skilled player can suddenly become a pathetic noob because of that.

Having some extra view distance behind the player isn't going to "rot" other game modes at all. They aren't played at such a high level, so changes to the game will hurt them less and I really don't think it will hurt them at all.
That's true, but I wasn't referring to just that. I was referring to the whole competitive scene's attitude where they bash every thing that gets changed and make it sound like they and their opinion are more important than everybody and everything else. Over the time this kind of attitude have had a very negative impact on Soldat and its more casual gamer base.

If your view distance was used, it would actually have a worse affect on soldat as EVERYbody in EVERY game mode would have to relearn how to play and relearn how to aim.
What? Because of increased screen width? Are competitive players really THAT sensitive?

Whereas, having the extra view distance only behind the player will not affect aim OR the weapon balance OR the most popular game mode. Your the one who is ignorant.
But it will affect ambush tactics which are a great source of fun and aren't that rare. It really is fun to suddenly drop down and shove a chainsaw up a camper's ass, or spas him point-blank. Though it doesn't sound like you've ever experienced something like that.


I'm not ignorant, I respect opinions of both the pubbers and competitive players. But there are limits, and like I've mentioned before - competitive players tend to cross that limit and demand way too much.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: soulblade on August 19, 2011, 06:19:32 pm
Also, loner said just because they aren't as popular they shouldn't be left to rot, as in not ignored as you suggest. Ergo the "ignorance" since you think nothing but CTF matters.

Where did I say other game modes don't matter exactly? Or did you even read my post properly? All I have said is that ctf and the competitive scene should have higher priority when taking any changes into account as most players are in them. What you are saying is popularity of game modes should be completely disregarded. If a change or new feature positively affected INF TDM and RAMBO, but completely screwed up CTF it would be fine right as long as it was fair?....Yea it would except...oh wait you'd have a DEAD GAME.

P.s. This is my last post on the matter. I cba arguing with all this spew.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: amb2010 on August 19, 2011, 06:22:52 pm
Quote
IMO The difference it will make in Inf or game modes other than ctf is unimportant.

Right there? Sure it isn't exactly "Ignore all other gamemodes" but you say any impact on them is unimportant because it makes CTF better.

I said all the game modes should be treated equally, if it screws up CTF it shouldn't be added. If it screws up Rambo, it shouldn't be added. Just because people rarely play them, doesn't mean they should be ignored just because CTF has some elitist competitive people. Seeing how you are one of those and don't care about anyone elses' opinions I'm done here.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Serial K!ller on August 20, 2011, 04:57:24 am
the increased view distance in the back would also have an advantage in CTF in certain situations

-it can be a harder to pass by enemies that are attacking your base when you are returning with their flag because they can spot you sooner.
-also when you are holding the flag and you are defending your teams base it will be easier to spot enemies that are sneaking from behind.

so you would be disadvantaged if you aren't using widescreen f.e. when your not registered (or will wide-screen not be an option for registered only?)
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: soulblade on August 20, 2011, 06:33:10 am
the increased view distance in the back would also have an advantage in CTF in certain situations

-it can be a harder to pass by enemies that are attacking your base when you are returning with their flag because they can spot you sooner.
-also when you are holding the flag and you are defending your teams base it will be easier to spot enemies that are sneaking from behind.

so you would be disadvantaged if you aren't using widescreen f.e. when your not registered (or will wide-screen not be an option for registered only?)

Yeah that's true it will still have some small advantages, but it will be much better than any increase to the front of the player. Most sneak attacks come from below or above though, it's much rarer for a flagger to get attacked from behind when he's at the spawn point.

I think 16:9 and 16:10 should have 1 free resolution like 4:3 and have higher resolutions only for registered users.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 20, 2011, 06:46:40 am
btw guys.... the inf maps aren't really balanced anyway, and the wm is made for ctf. So what difference does it make that you can see a bit behind you?
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 20, 2011, 03:03:11 pm
btw guys.... the inf maps aren't really balanced anyway, and the wm is made for ctf. So what difference does it make that you can see a bit behind you?
Like I've mentioned before, it's not just about balance - it's also about plain old fun. What's the fun in trying to sneak up on the enemy if he can spot you anyway?

Another thing - true, INF maps aren't as balanced, but extra view distance makes it even worse, since many INF maps are designed in such a way that you can't see all entrances to your base at once. Take a look at inf_Fortress example I posted earlier: http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=40434.msg496506#msg496506
This is just one of the possible examples. There are other maps (and not just INF maps) that would be affected by this.

Most sneak attacks come from below or above though, it's much rarer for a flagger to get attacked from behind when he's at the spawn point.
But notice that by seing more behind you - you also see more behind-above and behind-below your soldier. Attacks from these directions would be even easier to dodge than an attack directly from behind.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Meteorisch on August 20, 2011, 03:12:35 pm
This just means everyone is forced to buy an 16:9 or 16:10 screen. hahaha devs troll u
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Marquis on August 20, 2011, 03:44:10 pm
(http://i54.tinypic.com/szwy79.jpg)
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 20, 2011, 03:58:37 pm
This just means everyone is forced to buy an 16:9 or 16:10 screen. hahaha devs troll u
just as much as sc2 forced everyone to buy a 16:9 screen OR play in windowed.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: miketh2005 on August 22, 2011, 03:12:01 pm
I don't understand why widescreen just can't have black bars around it. What's the big deal? Sounds like the selfishness of those who have 16:9 who want an advantage over 4:3 to me! And I have 16:9.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 22, 2011, 05:25:09 pm
I don't understand why widescreen just can't have black bars around it. What's the big deal? Sounds like the selfishness of those who have 16:9 who want an advantage over 4:3 to me! And I have 16:9.
while in reality it's the exact opposite. It's not that big of a deal, but it's better to move forward.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Bistoufly on August 22, 2011, 06:07:34 pm
I don't understand why widescreen just can't have black bars around it. What's the big deal? Sounds like the selfishness of those who have 16:9 who want an advantage over 4:3 to me! And I have 16:9.
while in reality it's the exact opposite. It's not that big of a deal, but it's better to move forward.
@Ginn: On a 16:9 monitor with or without black bars the graphics , gostecks, scenneries, polies, ... stay the same size.
On a 4:3 monitor these get significantly scaled down. That's the core of the problem. And that is why your statement is wrong.
The disadvantage is far grater for the 4:3. 

Also I'd like to know how buying an inferior technology is moving forward.
I've got the holy-grail of the gaming monitor: iijama vision master pro 514  (imput lag: 0ms ,max vertical refresh rate:200hz)
why in the world would I want to get an inferior 16:9 tft to play soldat? 

I'm sorry if I sound like I can't accept changes. I swear it's not that.
I like the idea of a greater view-able area gameplay-wise and I'm not worried about the implications on the weapon balance.

It's just that it's a pain to play like that on a 4:3.

btw: even in 800x600 desktop with soldat in 800x480, I already loose part of the view. 53 pixels to be precise.


Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 22, 2011, 06:45:05 pm
well, "downgrading" to a cheap 16:9 screen won't have an impact on your performance in soldat. I would see it as an upgrad, because you'll have a higher resolution, it won't use as much electricity and not weigh a ton.
Really, your screen is 7 years old....
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Bistoufly on August 22, 2011, 07:27:02 pm
well, "downgrading" to a cheap 16:9 screen won't have an impact on your performance in soldat. I would see it as an upgrad, because you'll have a higher resolution, it won't use as much electricity and not weigh a ton.
Really, your screen is 7 years old....

Reactivity:
Even the best LCD's have significant input lag while CRT's have none. ( basically if you have a CRT you see the bullet before the guy with his LCD )
Fluidity:
On a fast paced game like soldat, fluidity is the most important aspect.
My CRT runs @200hz. The best lcd's run @120hz ( and are very expensive) Common lcd's only run @60hz.

I own two monitors:
a 21inch crt
a 22inch 16:9 lcd

I tried once running soldat on my lcd. Never again! After playing on the crt, going to the lcd is like watching a slideshow. Not to mention the ghosting and bluriness of the moving objects.

As for the resolution, it doesn't matter as Soldat is 640x480. ( 853x480 for Soldat 1.6 )
And anyway my CRT can go up to 2048x1536 while my LCD only goes up to 1920x1080

You're totally right about "it won't use as much electricity and not weigh a ton" tho.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 22, 2011, 07:42:43 pm
well, older tfts were blurry, nowadays they're pretty clear and usually at about 5-6ms response-time. Soldat runs in 60fps, so the update interval isn't a problem.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Bistoufly on August 22, 2011, 08:13:03 pm
well, older tfts were blurry, nowadays they're pretty clear and usually at about 5-6ms response-time.
The pixel response time and the input lag are two different things.

The "5-6ms response-time" is the gray to gray pixel response time.
For an LCD display, typical response times are 8 to 16 ms for black-white-black, or 2 to 6ms for grey-to-grey.

The problem is the input lag that adds up to this:
between 10ms and 68ms
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

In other words:
delay on a crt: 0ms
delay on a lcd: 2 to 6ms + 10ms to 68ms

Soldat runs in 60fps, so the update interval isn't a problem.
Soldat doesn't run @60fps lol. You're simply playing it on a 60hz screen with the V-sync activated. ( V-sync is atomatically activated if you play full screen on soldat 1.5 )
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 22, 2011, 09:34:17 pm
60 updates per second ;o
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: DutchFlame on August 23, 2011, 05:52:43 am
this went from a resolution change to here buy your monitor now topic
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: pavliko on August 23, 2011, 06:03:34 am
Maybe make a tournament in which the winners get 16:9 monitors?
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Marquis on August 23, 2011, 06:07:58 am
what about a 16:5 monitor.

All soldaters could be f**ked if they had met the guy with this one
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Denacke on August 23, 2011, 02:45:53 pm
I honestly don't comprehend the 4:3 users out there complaining. The matter is that either widescreen users get black bars (smaller view) or 4:3 users get black bars. It looks obvious to me that since most users have switched to widescreens, that that would be the preferred ratio.

The argument that soldat is scaled down much more for 4:3 users is bollocks. It's a game with gosteks made for a 640x480 resolution, on full screen you're already playing it with every gostek resized to be bigger. It being slightly smaller will really not be a big deal. You won't miss any detail.

Soldat is going forward, will you?
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Bistoufly on August 23, 2011, 04:26:05 pm
The matter is that either widescreen users get black bars (smaller view) or 4:3 users get black bars. It looks obvious to me that since most users have switched to widescreens, that that would be the preferred ratio.
That's correct.

The argument that soldat is scaled down much more for 4:3 users is bollocks. It's a game with gosteks made for a 640x480 resolution, on full screen you're already playing it with every gostek resized to be bigger.
Speak for yourself. I set the desktop resolution on my crt to 640x480. That way I don't have to see the hideous stretching.
tl;dr:
640x480: Soldat looks the way it's meant to be. ( crisp image )
higher resolution: Soldat looks blurry and ugly. (resized graphics)
( blurryness accentuated by the contrast against the tiled interface )


It being slightly smaller will really not be a big deal. You won't miss any detail.
I wish it was like that. It's not. The game is unplayable for me as  it is right now. :/
Soldat is going forward, will you?
Making it widescreen sure is a way to adapt to the new standards 
but Soldat is one of those game that don't really fit 16:9 anyway. ( Lots of vertical movement, huge jumps, jetpacks, ... )
So the added value is not worth the tradeoff.
Please consider that not everyone plays on a widescreen.
And that what is newer isn't always better. ( CRT's completely pwn LCD's in very fasted paced games where actions must be performed in a small time window. ( such as Soldat, Warsow, Quake3 , Cs, ... )
 


Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 23, 2011, 05:25:56 pm
The matter is that either widescreen users get black bars (smaller view) or 4:3 users get black bars. It looks obvious to me that since most users have switched to widescreens, that that would be the preferred ratio.
That's correct.

The argument that soldat is scaled down much more for 4:3 users is bollocks. It's a game with gosteks made for a 640x480 resolution, on full screen you're already playing it with every gostek resized to be bigger.
Speak for yourself. I set the desktop resolution on my crt to 640x480. That way I don't have to see the hideous stretching.
tl;dr:
640x480: Soldat looks the way it's meant to be. ( crisp image )
higher resolution: Soldat looks blurry and ugly. (resized graphics)
( blurryness accentuated by the contrast against the tiled interface )


It being slightly smaller will really not be a big deal. You won't miss any detail.
I wish it was like that. It's not. The game is unplayable for me as  it is right now. :/
Soldat is going forward, will you?
Making it widescreen sure is a way to adapt to the new standards 
but Soldat is one of those game that don't really fit 16:9 anyway. ( Lots of vertical movement, huge jumps, jetpacks, ... )
So the added value is not worth the tradeoff.
Please consider that not everyone plays on a widescreen.
And that what is newer isn't always better. ( CRT's completely pwn LCD's in very fasted paced games where actions must be performed in a small time window. ( such as Soldat, Warsow, Quake3 , Cs, ... )
Soldat isn't even close to be on that level of competition, the top players in soldat isn't dependant on good gear, they just need what they're used to, even if they got better gear they might actually not play any better.
... besides, they always play tournaments on TFTs, probably LED though.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: DutchFlame on August 23, 2011, 05:53:35 pm
I don't really get the point why people complain about this. Comeon you can't even expect in 2011 to play games with a cheap ass monitor. Move forward here. Be happy soldat takes a step ahead. Go complain about the netcode instead or anything useful, because this is just not important. If you open your eyes sometimes you can actually notice people sneaking up behind, its not hard you know. Stop being mad about a good thing.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Bistoufly on August 23, 2011, 07:19:52 pm
The matter is that either widescreen users get black bars (smaller view) or 4:3 users get black bars. It looks obvious to me that since most users have switched to widescreens, that that would be the preferred ratio.
That's correct.

... besides, they always play tournaments on TFTs, probably LED though.
http://www.geek.com/articles/games/russian-strippers-attempt-to-interrupt-counter-strike-tournament-nsfw-2009112/
CRT's + Strippers! :D That was in 2009
Anyway you're right, seems I'm the only guy on this forum that who has any interest in how to setup Soldat and what hardware to use to get the best comfort and efficiency. :/

I prefer not to play Soldat at all than playing it on a lcd. So I guess this means goodbye.

btw: Thank you for the discussion ginn. You actually red the thread and the different posts before replying.
Unlike most of the people who replied on this thread.



Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: L[0ne]R on August 23, 2011, 11:20:13 pm
On that:
CRT's completely pwn LCD's in very fasted paced games where actions must be performed in a small time window. ( such as Soldat, Warsow, Quake3 , Cs, ...)
I have LCD. Not even some badass gamer LCD. Just a regular 2005'ish LCD for a typical business computer. And I never ever ever had any issues even when playing Soldat, Team Fortress, Quake, or any other "fast" games. :/

just another 2 cents, not trying to prove or disprove anything here.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: miketh2005 on August 25, 2011, 09:27:00 pm
well, "downgrading" to a cheap 16:9 screen won't have an impact on your performance in soldat. I would see it as an upgrad, because you'll have a higher resolution, it won't use as much electricity and not weigh a ton.
Really, your screen is 7 years old....

Reactivity:
Even the best LCD's have significant input lag while CRT's have none. ( basically if you have a CRT you see the bullet before the guy with his LCD )
Fluidity:
On a fast paced game like soldat, fluidity is the most important aspect.
My CRT runs @200hz. The best lcd's run @120hz ( and are very expensive) Common lcd's only run @60hz.

I own two monitors:
a 21inch crt
a 22inch 16:9 lcd

I tried once running soldat on my lcd. Never again! After playing on the crt, going to the lcd is like watching a slideshow. Not to mention the ghosting and bluriness of the moving objects.

As for the resolution, it doesn't matter as Soldat is 640x480. ( 853x480 for Soldat 1.6 )
And anyway my CRT can go up to 2048x1536 while my LCD only goes up to 1920x1080

You're totally right about "it won't use as much electricity and not weigh a ton" tho.


Dude, you are behind the times. You can get a 200hz LCD since 2008, and there are LCDs with 5ms lag. That is milliseconds! MILLISECONDS! You can barely notice 5 ms, that's not going to give you an ounce of edge over the competition unless you have robotic eyes.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Bistoufly on August 26, 2011, 02:05:05 am
well, "downgrading" to a cheap 16:9 screen won't have an impact on your performance in soldat. I would see it as an upgrad, because you'll have a higher resolution, it won't use as much electricity and not weigh a ton.
Really, your screen is 7 years old....

Reactivity:
Even the best LCD's have significant input lag while CRT's have none. ( basically if you have a CRT you see the bullet before the guy with his LCD )
Fluidity:
On a fast paced game like soldat, fluidity is the most important aspect.
My CRT runs @200hz. The best lcd's run @120hz ( and are very expensive) Common lcd's only run @60hz.

I own two monitors:
a 21inch crt
a 22inch 16:9 lcd

I tried once running soldat on my lcd. Never again! After playing on the crt, going to the lcd is like watching a slideshow. Not to mention the ghosting and bluriness of the moving objects.

As for the resolution, it doesn't matter as Soldat is 640x480. ( 853x480 for Soldat 1.6 )
And anyway my CRT can go up to 2048x1536 while my LCD only goes up to 1920x1080

You're totally right about "it won't use as much electricity and not weigh a ton" tho.


Dude, you are behind the times. You can get a 200hz LCD since 2008, and there are LCDs with 5ms lag. That is milliseconds! MILLISECONDS! You can barely notice 5 ms
When will people learn to read and inform themselves before stating false affirmations? :/

There is no true 200hz  lcd. It simply doesn't exist on the market.
You're talking about the "100/120 and 200/240hz TV's. They can only accept 50/60hz input sources. Ever heard of image interpolation? They just process additional calculated frames.
And this is producing a lot of additional lag. That's why it's highly recomanded to turn off these frame interpolations functions if you're gonna play with your xbox, ps3, ... on these.

And if you took the time to read the Wikipedia link. You would know by now that this "5ms lag" you're referring to is just the grey to grey response time. The Monitor constructors don't publish the input lag values. And these are much higher.
And even if one day they manage to make a super high end lcd with 0ms input lag and true 200hz, it will still be a lot less fluid then a CRT. Because the lcd hold the image on the screen for the duration of the frame time.
"an image held on the screen for the duration of a frame-time [i.e. sample and hold] blurs on the retina as the eye tracks the (average) motion from one frame to the next. By comparison, as the [CRT] electron beam sweeps the surface of a cathode ray tube, it lights any given part of the screen only for a miniscule fraction of the frame time."

Illustration of the "sample-and-hold" effect
(http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/893/camerapixperancarallfv4.jpg)
And here a simulation that gives an idea of how it looks like in real-time:
(made with Pixperan's "streaky picture test")
(http://img120.imageshack.us/img120/7849/screenshotpixperanallcowj0.jpg)
And another one:
(http://img48.imageshack.us/img48/9453/islandall2ws3.jpg)
The degree to which all displays approximate a sample-and-hold effect is shown below
(http://img245.imageshack.us/img245/6241/sahchartcopysu2.jpg)


that's not going to give you an ounce of edge over the competition unless you have robotic eyes.
How can you judge about that? Do you have the two types of screens plugged to your computer?
Cause I do, and the difference is like day and night!
And for me it's not about competing. It's about comfort and immersion. Seeing your soldat react immediately when you move it. Seeing the map move with fluidity without any motion blur.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Leo on August 26, 2011, 05:59:37 am
I have absolutely no problem playing all games with my LCD monitor, no lag or blur as you post in your pictures.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 26, 2011, 06:09:50 am
ehm.... this is just the same pic that's been altered with blur... I was gonna ask how fast the rotation was, but I'm pretty sure there was none.

Anyway, you'll get used to LCD, I used to use CRTs untill like 2 years ago.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: tk on August 26, 2011, 06:41:45 am
Quote
How can you judge about that? Do you have the two types of screens plugged to your computer?
Cause I do, and the difference is like day and night!
And for me it's not about competing. It's about comfort and immersion. Seeing your soldat react immediately when you move it. Seeing the map move with fluidity without any motion blur.

What a s**tty LCD you must be using then. I admit, old LCDs had signifincant lag and blur (the best example is white cursor on black background), but on new monitors such problem doesn't exist, or at least on mine.

You are not able to notice 5ms latency. it's 1/200 of a second.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: ginn on August 26, 2011, 07:21:17 am
Quote
How can you judge about that? Do you have the two types of screens plugged to your computer?
Cause I do, and the difference is like day and night!
And for me it's not about competing. It's about comfort and immersion. Seeing your soldat react immediately when you move it. Seeing the map move with fluidity without any motion blur.

What a s**tty LCD you must be using then. I admit, old LCDs had signifincant lag and blur (the best example is white cursor on black background), but on new monitors such problem doesn't exist, or at least on mine.

You are not able to notice 5ms latency. it's 1/200 of a second.
well, you gotta compare it to your reaction time...
according to http://www.fetchfido.co.uk/games/reaction/reaction_test.htm my reaction time is 0.193, though I'm sleepy and got a new mouse (not used to the actuation force and button actuation travel), so it could probably be lower. Now, assuming I have a 5ms delay because of the screen, my real reaction time would be 0.188, that means my reaction time increased by 2.7%. now, if I was doing something I'm used to do and can very instinctively react, it might go down to 170ms~, then it'll be an increase of 3%. My maths may be wrong :p.

This might not sound like much, and might not actually be enough to create an issue in competitive gaming, like LAN CS (I'm not sure how many ms can make the difference between life/death).
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Bistoufly on August 26, 2011, 04:39:22 pm
.re the images: the first one is an actual photograph. the second and third are simulations of what you would see if you caught the image on the screen "with your own eyes". The simulations were made with PixPerAn. http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/testsoftware/pixperan.html

to all the people that says they've got no problem with their lcd.
Well If I hadn't a crt to compare with. I would say the same thing as you.
You can only see it if you actually try soldat on a crt.
And it's not just like a little difference. It's really day and night as far as playing Soldat is concerned.






From: August 26, 2011, 04:57:38 pm

What a s**tty LCD you must be using then. I admit, old LCDs had signifincant lag and blur (the best example is white cursor on black background), but on new monitors such problem doesn't exist, or at least on mine.

You are not able to notice 5ms latency. it's 1/200 of a second.

For the 3rd time now. 5ms is not the latency its the pixel reponse time. The typical display lag on a lcd is about +-50 ms.

*pixel response time: (+- 5 ms)  due to the nature of the lcd panel)

*display lag: (+-50ms) due to the electronic processing inside the monitor. ( scaling, post processing, overdrive, ... )

On a crt there is no display lag and no pixel response time.

Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: Shoozza on August 28, 2011, 05:56:46 am
I've read through the thread and Fryer's solution seems to make most people happy.
The only stuff that seems to worry people is the increased back view and the fact that they will see black bars in non 16:9 resolutions (or see simply less).

When I look at the results of Steam hardware survey of July 2011 it looks like moving towards widescreen isn't a bad idea:
40.29% (16:10)
35.09% (16:9)
11.80% (5:4)
 8.30% (4:3)
 4.92% (other)

I think removing 16:9 support this late (Soldat 1.6.0 will be released in a few days) is not a good idea. I'd rather do some finishing touches instead.
Lets just try how this turns out in 1.6.0.
Maybe people like the new 16:9 support after all. Or maybe I'm just wrong and we will have to find another solution in 1.6.1.

I myself play Soldat windowed with 640x480 resolution on a 1680x1050 LCD so it's not really a problem for me to switch to widescreen (it adds just a few more pixels).

I apologize for the abrupt introduction of widescreen as best resolution ratio to play Soldat.


Anyways enough excuses and thanks for the feedback!
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: machina on August 28, 2011, 07:52:02 am
4:3 resolution was making Soldat old... Now, it's a bit newer with 16:9/10... :P
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: biohazard on August 28, 2011, 01:15:19 pm
Ok with new wide shit, but soldat has to be remade totally in the very near future, like the maps and the WM.
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: machina on August 28, 2011, 01:28:57 pm
Ok with new wide s**t, but soldat has to be remade totally in the very near future, like the maps and the WM.
WM, WM... WM... What the fuck is this?
Title: Re: 16:9 resolution change
Post by: DarkCrusade on August 28, 2011, 01:31:11 pm
WM=WeaponMod