Official Soldat Forums
Soldat Talk => Weapon Balance Discussion => Topic started by: NamelessWolf on March 11, 2012, 04:22:50 pm
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Hey!
I just recieved a document from Kamiquasi Steve which basically proves that Spas and Ruger gets many more kills than any other gun, based on statistics recorded at Leo's Realistic Servers between 1st of November 2011 to 10th of March 2012 (the author is still recording stats). You can find it here:
http://html-bin.appspot.com/aghodG1sLWJpbnIMCxIEUGFnZRiBxxIM
With these facts pointed out I think it's obvious that Spas and Ruger are the weapons to power down, if any.
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My own recommendation would be to add bink for Ruger. It's not realistic to have perfect aim after being shot by an enemy and it gives Ruger users an unfair advantage.
For Spas I guess it should simply hurt less, so it doesn't kill in one shot unless really close to the target. Maybe also make "bullets" spread more at longer distances, so it's not as likely that one player gets hit by all of the burst.
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Agreed.
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My preference would be to nerf the fire rate on both guns, slightly more on the spas. Also, a small increase in reload time for the ruger. More aim, less spam, thanks.
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Looking at the raw range, spas might even fit in balance with other weapons.
However, not the range itself is most important, since you only see one screen. Spas can kill over a distance of one screen, which makes it unbalanced. Also I imagine a shotgun to have a harder recoil. There are no problems in the realistic mode, to aim very well in a short time between shots. I would increase the recoil and lower the damage over range/lower the range itself.
If spas was harder to aim with, the deagles could gain some importance again.
Ruger is often used for sit- or hide-camping, but many do well with it while running, too. The problem is: You can't stop a good rugerer with your weapon, except for a barret. He kills from a longer distance faster than your spas can reach, and your autos do no harm to him, as he still has a perfect aim after being shot. Annoying is a ruger out of a bush, as you can not spray him. Increase the bink a few steps, I say, so that ruger gets an enemy again - isn't it a weapon close to barret, except for the scope?
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Well, we speak about it for long time in "Spas is overpowered" but one more topic is a good idea. Next release have to make those two weapons balanced one many people will get feel fucked up in their asses, again...
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The reason why I posted a new thread was to get a discussion based as much as possible on solid facts, rather than everyone's assumption of the weapon balance. You should click the link and read it all.
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For me balancing [REALISTIC] :
Spas [Spas]
DMG: Same
ACC: Same
SPREAD: x2
Finito now it will be a "shotgun" not a long range weapon
Ruger [Ruger]
DMG: Same
ACC: Same
ROF: + x1.5 -> x2.0 Rate Of Fire should be greater cause it is a bolt-action rifle
My view ;)
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I'll give the realistic WM some love based on your input as no one else in the developer or beta team seems to maintain it anymore. I'll cook up some nerfs for Spas and Ruger, but which weapons are in need of improving, and how? Unfortunately I can't rely too much on the stats provided since it's only from once source, it mixes stats from different game modes and has M79 disabled on some.
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I propose less ROF [rate of fire], more recoil, (less damage), and if possible, spread for the spas. For ruger I propose more reload, and less ROF.
which weapons are in need of improving, and how? Unfortunately I can't rely too much on the stats provided since it's only from once source, it mixes stats from different game modes and has M79 disabled on some.
I don't see any big flaws after spas and ruger are done (anyhow). But if you really ask me, Desert eagles are underrated. Though I haven't played for ages, so don't count on me.
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nerf spas a lot, nerf ruger a bit, and it should be good. Changing other weapons may unbalance something again.
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Spas should have maximum 60% of its already power. The matters had gone to far. At this moment Spas is a weapon to spray enemy base from some very long range! This is ridiculous!
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// Changes from 1.6.2 -> 1.6.3
// Deagles recoil -4
// Spas dmg -2, speed -1, recoil +11
// Ruger bink +10
// Barrett reload -100, moveacc -1
// Minimi dmg -1
// Socom recoil -4
// Chainsaw fireinterval -1, reload -119, ammo +105, recoil -1
as numbers dont say much to me, i used this balance in soldat 1.6.2 and...
spas was still a long range spam gun that often kills with one hit (if attacking from above), it looked like it was nerfed a lot, but it seems like its efficiency didnt drop much
ruger is all about precision, so i dont know if adding bink to it is a good idea, it may kill the gun completely, either i sucked with aiming against the bots or the +10 bink really makes a difference. Again, good that it's nerfed but i think it's nerfed in the wrong direction. If ruger is not precise then it is useless.
the stats i would mess with for both guns are damage (more nerfing for spas), fireinterval/speed (whats the difference between these two?) and maybe adding recoil to spas was a good idea but i didnt feel much of a difference in gameplay
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[DE] Same My view of balance so right out of the head.
[MP5] Same
[AK74] Same
[AUG] Same
[Spas] Pellet spread + x2
[Ruger] Recoil + +x1.5
[M79] Reload + x1.3
[Barret] Reload - x1.3
[Minimi] Dmg + x1.1
[Minigun] Dunno
[socom] Reload + x1.4
[knife] Same
[saw] Same
[law] Reload - x1.25
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recoil wouldnt change much for ruger
and i dont know is spas's spread is easy to change, since it's not in the .ini file
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I think that it's all about Spas's speed. If the speed gets smaller, the overall damage that Spas can make for longer range will get smaller. Spas's Damage should be smaller too, because it shoots with 7 bullets. That gives over 700 damge points! And it will be balanced then. About Ruger, I think it shouldn't be able to shoot so often. This is a bullshit while Ruger users spray with them for lucky shots and they kill by one hit.
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Lowering Spas Dmg will make it worser on close combat and no one wants that , its better the spread increases so its damage at close will be great and on far its spread would not allow it to kill like you can now.
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You better finding solutions those developers will include. Changing spread is impossible in weapons.ini... I don't believe that devs are going to care about realistic balance so much and get initiative to remake the code.
skoskav made some early updates for WM:
// Changes from 1.6.2 -> 1.6.3
// Deagles recoil -4
// Spas dmg -2, speed -1, recoil +11
// Ruger bink +10
// Barrett reload -100, moveacc -1
// Minimi dmg -1
// Socom recoil -4
// Chainsaw fireinterval -1, reload -119, ammo +105, recoil -1
EDIT: My feelings:
-now Deagles are going to rule. mostly this weapon is able to kill by one shot and it kills maximum after 2 shots. For me Deagles were enough strong.
-Spas is still pwning. Recoil won't give anything because of long FireInterval. Speed is still to big and this weapon will be long range weapon again. We should not forget that Spas shoots with 7 bullets, not 1. So -2 for Damage don't change anything.
-Ruger should have bigger FireInterval. It's really annoying while enemies sprays with Rugers
-I see that Ak is not going to get lower Bink :| Bad info for me but not so bad as info about keeping Spas and Ruger with so overpowered settings
-4 for Socom's recoil is fine and Minimi's -1 is fine even it won't change so much
-I see the days for chainsaw users are aproaching
There's still work to do, but nice to see that changes begin. I hope everthing will be okay when it's finished.
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One thing I would love to have changed about the Spas is to have the backward push taken away for the player who shoots with it. It's not reasonable that a Spaser can run with 150% speed of anyone else (except for minigunners) and still have a powerful weapon when he gets to the enemies.
I suppose this isn't as important for other gamemodes but in TW the Spas have other capabilities than just killing.
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No the [Spas] 's Backblast is something special about it and in most servers the only weapon that can you boost ( cause most dont allow minigun) And it's backblast prevents the [Spas] 'er to run and gun everyone , Cause he gets slower by shooting at enemy's in front .
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That idea of Spas making you slow is probably good in theory but it's way too easy to use that to your advantage rather than disadvantage, just by switching direction for hundreds of a second. The hardest part is not to hit team mates behind yourself, but a good player can handle that too.
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I'm probably going to hell for saying this, but doesn't the realistic XM214 Minigun deserve a look too?
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I'm probably going to hell for saying this, but doesn't the realistic XM214 Minigun deserve a look too?
It's banned at every server so people don't see problems with it... In fact, it's a unknown weapon.
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I'm probably going to hell for saying this, but doesn't the realistic XM214 Minigun deserve a look too?
While it MIGHT be underpowered, it's not really in need of such a buff like the normal mode mini. It was way more powerful in realistic servers than N servers back to the days of the old N wepmod, despite it being damn hard to control. Ducking and proning help a lot, but ducking on the move does a roll, and proning on the move will get you into trouble.
@machina: I like you more than most people seem to do, but THAT was a damn stupid comment. Just cause you don't see any players with it on LRS ctf, doesn't mean there is none. I admit Mini's banned on the most popular R servers, but that's no reason to leave it dangling. It's not THAT unpopular.
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I can't see how the XM214 isn't UP given its debilitating weaknesses such as startup(33) and horrid recoil(4), its neither a good boost weapon nor a good auto/sprayer in R. I'm not suggesting that the XM214 be improved to the level of N balance but for it to be more useable for whatever its role is. Plus, just because it is not an urgent weapon to balance for any reason(including lack of popularity or just designed to be useless) doesn't mean it doesn't deserve some justice. Chainsaw in both balances is a useless weapon by design but its still given a buff anyway.
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I didn't say R minigun doesn't deserve a lookup. But you see what happened to N minigun when it really needed a buff? That's what I was afraid of.
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@machina: I like you more than most people seem to do, but THAT was a damn stupid comment. Just cause you don't see any players with it on LRS ctf, doesn't mean there is none. I admit Mini's banned on the most popular R servers, but that's no reason to leave it dangling. It's not THAT unpopular.
You did not get what I meant telling it like that. Maybe it's my bad but I just said bad true. I mean that almost nobody cares about balancing Minigun because of this reason. I do not agree with it (throwing the problem away by banning weapon) but as long there's no Mini on public servers as long people will not be able to notice problem. Just a few people will see it and their voice will not be heard.
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i personally would like minigun to be thrown away because its a horrible weapon, spraying hundreds of bullets is annoying and laggy, i think the servers would lose much if significant amount of players used those. It's a weapon either to fool around or for some special gamemodes, the way it works makes it horrible for usual soldat gaming
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Hi! Now that I can actually log in (thanks FliesLikeaBrick!)...
It's true that the statistics I collected were limited to a single server, and for mixed game modes. In fact, a while ago LRS added a TTW server mode which further skews weapon usage as there's no free choice (AK-74 got a major boost as the main 2 classes in that game mode have that gun in common), so any further readings in comparison to the statistics as presented in the first post are moot. It might be interesting to see how the v1.6.3 changes* will affect gun usage compared to later statistics, though, so I'll continue collecting for a while. It would be better if some of the more popular server owners would collect this data specifically, though, and analyzed it themselves - it would make custom weapon mods less arbitrary (aside from special game modes / weapons fun) as well :)
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// Changes from 1.6.2 -> 1.6.3 (realistic)
// Deagles recoil -4
// Spas dmg -1, speed -2, fireinterval +1, recoil +11
// Ruger fireinterval +2, reload +4, bink +4
// Barrett reload -100, moveacc -1
// Minimi dmg -1
// Socom reload -6, recoil -4
// Chainsaw fireinterval -1, reload -119, ammo +105, recoil -1
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NamelessWolf already brought up the topic of the spas "pushback".
I can not talk for the entire realistic scene, but in Trenchwars this weapon gives a good advantage since speed matters much (especially for capping).
Wondering what effect it had on your velocity, I made a few tests. Measured the absolute value of the velocity vector.
Your running and jumping speed on a flat plateau can get up to 7v, you achieve much momentum through sidejumps and lose it before hitting the ground again.
Shooting the spas in a good moment while in space grants you around +1v. A higher maximal velocity is hardly achieved through that since you lose much of the speed very quickly.
Running a specific way on a map took around 8 seconds (without using special movements as cannonballs or polybounces) with an average of 3.8 in velocity.
Using the spas throwback for the same setup needed 6.3 seconds with an average speed of 4.8v.
(For those interested, I ran the way on tw_Gloryhill from the base-turned entrance of the sidebunker to the own entrance of the mid)
I agree that it's an unique aspect in the game, but rushers and flagrunners can use it to such an extend that I find it hard to cope with using other weapons.
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@TheOne:
This is not exclusive to R/S. The spas push-back raises the same questions in normal mode.
My opinion is that while the push-back is part of Soldat and should stay.
It's still too powerful and hurts the game-play.
I would like to see it reduced by at least 30%.
Same goes for minigun and autos.
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I don't think the autos have so much pushback that they're really useful just for running faster. The minigun and the Spas can be used for ridiculous speed though and I don't think it's realistic to see people using their gun in that way, shooting backwards just to run faster.
Bistoufly:
I don't think TheOne was referring to the survival mode, but rather all realistic gamemodes in general and Trenchwar in particular.
In TW running is just as important as killing and therefore you must be able to kill much more (and/or do cannonballs and polybug bounces) to compensate for the lack of speed which is caused by picking any other gun than the Spas. In my opinion that isn't a good thing.
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I don't think the autos have so much pushback that they're really useful just for running faster. The minigun and the Spas can be used for ridiculous speed though and I don't think it's realistic to see people using their gun in that way, shooting backwards just to run faster.
Yes, I should have specified that in the case of automatics, I'm thinking about the push they make on other players. Once you are caught inside a spray, it's very hard to move out of it. While this is realistic and adds a tactical element. I would like the push effect to be milder.
In TW running is just as important as killing and therefore you must be able to kill much more (and/or do cannonballs and polybug bounces) to compensate for the lack of speed which is caused by picking any other gun than the Spas. In my opinion that isn't a good thing.
I agree. And in my opinion, what you just said also totally applies to normal mode ctf.
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I don't know about normal mode, but in realistic mode the pushing of players you hit is not an issue. The problem is that you can boost yourself by shooting backwards with some weapons.
It probably applies to all game modes where you're supposed to move in a certein direction - which only makes it more important to change - but I believe that the Spas'es recoil thrust has more influence on maps where there is no jetpack. Trenchwar doesn't offer as many options to speed yourself up and the Spas'es boost can therefore be an essential change to all of the gameplay.