Official Soldat Forums
Soldat Talk => Game Improvements / Suggestions => Topic started by: darDar on March 16, 2014, 03:22:25 pm
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Hello,
I noticed a problem with the changes which were made towards the demo recorder in Soldat.
I have been playing with "autodemo = ON" (config) for years as it was pretty good to capture demos.
I came back to Soldat 2-3 months ago and didn't know about the changes on the demo stuff.
A few weeks ago I wanted to create a Soldat video out of my demos I had collected.
Sadly I had to notice that Soldat does now record EVERY round you are playing.
So I had thousands of files in there and I guess 95% of them are totally useless.
The way it was before the update:
autodemo = on
records everytime but will NOT save anything UNLESS you pressed the "F8" key.
So if you just made an awesome kill or something you wanted to capture , you just had to press F8 right after that and your file was saved to demos folder with the name "autodemo1" (2,3,4,(...) ).
So you could be sure that you just had the demos in it which you actually wanted.
The name was also pretty good as you could just change the number ingame. e.g = autodemo1 to autodemo2
pretty easy and good working system..
The new file names have been a good idea but they are useless in my opinion.
The date is saved to the file properties anyway and you will not find a specific demo by the mapname (unless you didnt play it often)
Also you will always have to:
minimize soldat
copy demo name
insert demo name
I think there should be either an option in the config.exe to switch between the old demo recorder and the new one.
OR
which would be obviously the easiest way...
autodemos are saved to demos
and
autodemos which are being interrupted by pressing F8 will be saved to a new folder in the demos folder.
for example "Soldat/demos/autodemos
I hope you got my point here.
I had a conversation about that on #soldat.devs, so if you are REALLY bored you can read through it.
[03:46] <darDar> why has the demo recording been changed ? everything was awesome about it
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[04:01] <MrBungle`> darDar dat objectivity
[04:01] <darDar> ?
[04:01] <MrBungle`> not everything was awesome about it
[04:02] <darDar> It's not objectivity it's the truth
[04:02] <MrBungle`> it's ez to list flaws of the old method
[04:02] <darDar> it's crap what you say here
[04:02] <MrBungle`> so you're saying 'everything was awesome'
[04:02] <MrBungle`> yet its ez to prove otherwise
[04:02] <MrBungle`> ok prove it then?
[04:03] <darDar> put off that operator / dev / internet attitude pls
[04:03] <darDar> I just say it was awesome because that's how to describe it
[04:04] <MrBungle`> ok
[04:04] <MrBungle`> i took what you said litterlaly
[04:04] <darDar> the thing we have there now is the contrary of awesome
[04:04] <darDar> its awful
[04:04] <darDar> mb it's just a bug on my soldat, but well i dont guess so
[04:04] <MrBungle`> have you considered the possibility that neither are awesome nor awful?
[04:05] <darDar> i actualy also wanted to argue about awesomnes I just wanted to get a statement about the reason that demo stuff was changed
[04:05] <darDar> not to argue*
[04:05] <MrBungle`> alright
[04:06] <MrBungle`> i do remember when it was changed
[04:06] <MrBungle`> if i remember correctly, zakath was behind the change
[04:06] <darDar> if i remember right,
[04:07] <darDar> the old file type was too large
[04:07] <MrBungle`> mmm ?
[04:08] <MrBungle`> between which version did the change you are thinking about happen?
[04:08] <darDar> idk I've been away for a while I guess in 1.6.5 - 1.6.6
[04:08] <darDar> don't know about the version history
[04:08] <darDar> 1.6.6
[04:08] <MrBungle`> so what have you noticed that bothered you?
[04:10] <darDar> 1: It records every single match now 2: file names are so terrible,.. it's no longer autodemo1,2,3 (...) it's like $date$map which makes it pretty hard to watch many demos behind each other - you'll have to switch to desktop every time to copy the demos name + insert it into soldat
[04:11] <darDar> even if you find your demo you were looking for it has recorded the full match instead of just the scene you wanted to capture
[04:11] <MrBungle`> yes
[04:11] <darDar> Im speaking about autorecord , not about F8'ing
[04:12] <MrBungle`> so you are asking why it was changed to that?
[04:12] <MrBungle`> well its like a design decision
[04:12] <darDar> it's a bad decision
[04:12] <MrBungle`> well thats subjective
[04:12] <darDar> no
[04:12] <MrBungle`> there are pros and cons
[04:12] <darDar> there is not subjectivity in that case
[04:12] <MrBungle`> of both ways
[04:13] <MrBungle`> well i can give you valid arguments that are in favor of the new behavior
[04:13] <MrBungle`> and you can give valid ones for the old as well
[04:14] <MrBungle`> I don't think you can obkectively say one is better than the other
[04:14] <MrBungle`> one is more suited for some situations
[04:14] <MrBungle`> and the other for other situations
[04:14] <MrBungle`> for example
[04:15] <MrBungle`> the new naming convention:
[04:15] <MrBungle`> cons: long complex names requiring you to copy paste the file names from your demo folder
[04:16] <MrBungle`> pros: ez to find which match demo you were looking for since it has the date time and name of the map
[04:16] <darDar> this is useless
[04:16] <darDar> since your file has a date by itself
[04:16] <darDar> right click, info
[04:16] <MrBungle`> depends
[04:17] <darDar> it's not the file name im pissed off. It's even more the fact that autorecord does capture every single match
[04:17] <darDar> so i have a pretty full demo folder
[04:17] <MrBungle`> i don't see the info in the context menu
[04:17] * Vig (ViGGoLo@ViGGoLoNiGGoLo.users.quakenet.org) Quit (Ping timeout)
[04:18] <darDar> with demos i never wanted to have
[04:18] <MrBungle`> zhen riht clicking a demo file
[04:18] <MrBungle`> im on win7
[04:18] <MrBungle`> am i ;issing something?
[04:18] <MrBungle`> excuse my typing
[04:19] <darDar> Today, 25. February 2014, 01:56:52 works for me
[04:19] <MrBungle`> were you refering to the date modified attribute in windows eplorer?
[04:19] <darDar> yes
[04:19] <darDar> date created
[04:19] <MrBungle`> gotcha
[04:19] <MrBungle`> yes that covers that part its true
[04:20] <MrBungle`> the map name isn't in that tho
[04:20] <MrBungle`> this is something interesting you say
[04:20] <MrBungle`> cause
[04:20] <MrBungle`> that might be a reason to drop the date from the file name
[04:20] <MrBungle`> since you can order it in explorer by date created
[04:20] <MrBungle`> not sure if it's worth it tho
[04:20] <MrBungle`> what would you think of that idea
[04:21] <MrBungle`> just having the mapname in the filename
[04:21] <MrBungle`> ?
[04:21] <darDar> i dont really care so much about the filename - I want to have that old autorecord back where I could click F8 ingame whenever I made a cool kill or something., and ONLY this was saved to my demos
[04:21] <darDar> and not EVERY match played in my entire life
[04:22] <MrBungle`> i hear you
[04:22] <darDar> the thing is, i m doing a frag video just for fun to get rid off all my demos but i can't continue now
[04:22] <MrBungle`> as i recall the iussue was that it was not recording the length defined in your settings
[04:22] <darDar> 1.6.3 demos were pretty cool to capture
[04:23] <MrBungle`> rather that defined the maximum length
[04:23] <darDar> yes, kind of
[04:23] <MrBungle`> but itcould be any length between zero and the length defined in your settings
[04:23] <MrBungle`> so this was felt as a buggy behavior and zakath didn't have the will to fix it
[04:23] <MrBungle`> i guess it was something not trivial
[04:24] <MrBungle`> since there are advantages to recording everything ( obviously not in your case trying to make a frag movie) zakath changed the behavior to the current one
[04:25] <MrBungle`> these advantages are such as:
[04:25] <MrBungle`> _ the security of knowing all your games are demoed
[04:26] <MrBungle`> - a set one time only feature to auto record your match
[04:26] <MrBungle`> by that i mean that if you are in a competitive league such as sctfl
[04:26] <MrBungle`> which requires you by rule to record all your match
[04:27] <MrBungle`> you don't need to press f8 at each start fo a round
[04:27] <MrBungle`> Now i hear you
[04:27] <MrBungle`> and i understands how annoying it is for making a movie
[04:28] <MrBungle`> from short actions
[04:28] <darDar> oke
[04:28] <MrBungle`> you have to browse through long videos when you want to record
[04:28] <MrBungle`> and you have to browse through a long list of demos to find the one you need
[04:29] <MrBungle`> not to mention that with the current behavior, the demo folder grows quickly in side
[04:29] <MrBungle`> and requires periodical cleaning
[04:29] <MrBungle`> so ye
[04:29] <MrBungle`> pros and cons
[04:29] <MrBungle`> i remember a discussion with zakath
[04:29] <MrBungle`> in which we proposed a solution to this issue
[04:30] <MrBungle`> having 2 different keys to autodemo
[04:30] <MrBungle`> one with the old behavior
[04:30] <MrBungle`> and the default one with the current behavior
[04:30] <MrBungle`> that way you would get both options
[04:30] <MrBungle`> What do you think about this darDar?
[04:31] <darDar> the security of knowing all your games are demoed (honestly, no one really needs all of his matches demoed - you'll never watch them all.) a set one time only feature to auto record your match(that's a good point , but if there was a new code made for the demo tab why not just add an option to the soldat config like autorecord 100% and autorecord pause with f8 uncheck box) by that i mean that if you are in a competitive league such as sctfl (if you play in a competive league there are like 10 map restarts per clanwar which will create 11 demo files )
[04:31] <darDar> that way you would get both options (I like)
[04:32] <MrBungle`> so you propose teh ability to choose the behavior in the config utility?
[04:32] <MrBungle`> thats a possibility too
[04:32] <darDar> shouldn't be so hard
[04:32] <MrBungle`> thats 2 good idea in my opinion
[04:32] <darDar> both codes exist
[04:32] <MrBungle`> I think you should make a post in soldat forum
[04:32] <MrBungle`> for these suggestions
[04:32] <MrBungle`> the ones that gives the player the choice
[04:33] <darDar> Yes, I will do that - It won't get into the next release anyway
[04:33] <MrBungle`> because like i said which behavior is best is subjective
[04:33] <darDar> but mb into the next one
[04:33] <MrBungle`> and you won't have everyone agree with your poinr of view
[04:33] <MrBungle`> but if we get the choice
[04:33] <MrBungle`> then everyone wins
[04:33] <MrBungle`> awesome
[04:34] <MrBungle`> glad i could help you darDar
[04:34] <darDar> hah
[04:34] <darDar> ye
[04:34] <darDar> good conversation
[04:34] <darDar> but
[04:34] <darDar> my video project is ended now
[04:34] <MrBungle`> ill be sure to watch it
[04:34] <darDar> it would take years to check all those demos
[04:35] <MrBungle`> ye
[04:35] <MrBungle`> its a long process
[04:35] <MrBungle`> ive gone through it too
[04:35] <MrBungle`> tho i never finished my project
[04:35] <MrBungle`> haha
[04:35] <MrBungle`> my potato computer suffers with adobe after effects
[04:35] <MrBungle`> so that didn't help
[04:36] <darDar> if i knew about that change before, I would have made a notice everytime i had a good scene
[04:36] <MrBungle`> oh ye
[04:36] <darDar> with date/map etc
[04:37] <MrBungle`> ye i used to rename and organize the fles in subfolders
[04:37] <MrBungle`> i did find the naming convemtion helpful
[04:37] <MrBungle`> but i never let the deno sit too long
[04:38] <MrBungle`> I can see how you had a bad surprise
[04:38] * Vig (ViGGoLo@ViGGoLoNiGGoLo.users.quakenet.org) has joined #Soldat.Devs
[04:39] <darDar> 1800 files
[04:39] <darDar> in my lates soldat folder
[04:40] <darDar> 1650 shouldn't be there
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I personally never liked the long demo names we added and we will have to make sure you don't need to copy the names like that.
As for your suggested demo record behavior: I think we could implement both (full demos and your suggested demo recording option).
Btw should it record everything and save the last 5 seconds before F8 keypress + the time till the next F8 keypress?
Is 5 seconds enough or too much?
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I think we actually need 3 options: Normal, Moviemaking, League
Normal:
Recording drags recources, so we either need an option to turn off recording, or keep the current normal feature where you press F8 to start and F8 to stop
Moviemaking:
When you press F8 it should save the entire map from the start to the point you pressed F8
(The old autodemo system let you record in intervals of x minutes. But I allways set it to 10 minutes or more to make sure I didn't do something awsum inbetween intervals, so that option is unnecessary)
League:
Sctfl admins who needs to record and save everything should have that option
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I personally never liked the long demo names we added and we will have to make sure you don't need to copy the names like that.
As for your suggested demo record behavior: I think we could implement both (full demos and your suggested demo recording option).
Btw should it record everything and save the last 5 seconds before F8 keypress + the time till the next F8 keypress?
Is 5 seconds enough or too much?
That would be awesome.
I'm not 100% sure how it was in the past but I think it had a 2 minute period before.
So, if your scene, which you wanted to record, was at "03:40 Minutes played", it recorded from 02:00 - 03:40
The demo stopped at the moment when you pressed F8. There was not a buffer like the one you have suggested.
If I remember right, there could happen an error because of those periods in which the demos have been recorded.
If your scene, which you wanted to record was at 01:45 Minutes played until 02:20 , it removed the first 2 minutes, so the actual demo just captured from 02:00 until 02:20.
I'm not really sure about that though.
Btw should it record everything and save the last 5 seconds before F8 keypress + the time till the next F8 keypress?
I'm not totally sure what you mean by that if I am honest!
Moviemaking:
When you press F8 it should save the entire map from the start to the point you pressed F8
(The old autodemo system let you record in intervals of x minutes. But I allways set it to 10 minutes or more to make sure I didn't do something awsum inbetween intervals, so that option is unnecessary)
I dont like that option because most of your "kills" or scenes you want to watch are pretty short and you will not remember the time it happend. So you will either have to watch it all, or fast-forward and probably miss the actual scene.
I think it should be with intervals, but in a different way.
The interval should start if you press F8 and take the last 2 minutes from that moment (or 3 or whatever)
League:
Sctfl admins who needs to record and save everything should have that option
It's a good idea, but I don't like addons who are just for a specific group of people. I think it would be better if every player has this feature then!
As I said in my first post, it might help if there were some subfolders in the demo folder.
For Example:
My suggestion (old autodemo)
demos/autodemos
or
demos/2014-January
demos/2014-February
...
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If it was possible to save the last x minutes before you pressed F8 it would be super cool, but Zakath has said before that it will be too much work. Therefor it should save the whole map up to the point you press F8 as I suggested.
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Talked on IRC and found possible solution:
<homerofgods> Is it possible to save the last x minutes before you pressed F8?
<Shoozza> imho it should only record a few seconds before the f8 press
<Shoozza> why do you want to record minutes before it?
<darDar> Well, some scenes take longer (amazing cap, killing sprees)
<elmorvano> ''If it was possible to save the last x minutes before you pressed F8 it would be super cool'' <-- Is it deleted? It was for sure
<homerofgods> It never was. It recorded in intervals
<homerofgods> 0:00 to 2:00 2:00 to 4:00 and so on
<elmorvano> in soldat.ini I wrote how many minutes i want to rec before F8
<homerofgods> Yes, you had to set it to 10 minutes, it was good but now it's gone.
<homerofgods> I liked the idea of saving demos to a different folder if you press F8. That could work
<darDar> yea i think that would also be the easiest to code!
<homerofgods> And it wouldn't require 3 different demo options. Only 2
<homerofgods> Shoozza there's your solution
<elmorvano> in my opinion this would be a great option
<@Shoozza> post it on the forums
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Dream of every climber.. autorecord from respawn to capture the flag..
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^ + no missing animations in the recorded demo
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^ + no missing animations in the recorded demo
Are the missing animations reported in mantis? You climbers know them best
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Dream of every climber.. autorecord from respawn to capture the flag..
F12! or maybe simply demo editor?
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Talked on IRC and found possible solution:
<homerofgods> Is it possible to save the last x minutes before you pressed F8?
<Shoozza> imho it should only record a few seconds before the f8 press
<Shoozza> why do you want to record minutes before it?
<darDar> Well, some scenes take longer (amazing cap, killing sprees)
<elmorvano> ''If it was possible to save the last x minutes before you pressed F8 it would be super cool'' <-- Is it deleted? It was for sure
<homerofgods> It never was. It recorded in intervals
<homerofgods> 0:00 to 2:00 2:00 to 4:00 and so on
<elmorvano> in soldat.ini I wrote how many minutes i want to rec before F8
<homerofgods> Yes, you had to set it to 10 minutes, it was good but now it's gone.
<homerofgods> I liked the idea of saving demos to a different folder if you press F8. That could work
<darDar> yea i think that would also be the easiest to code!
<homerofgods> And it wouldn't require 3 different demo options. Only 2
<homerofgods> Shoozza there's your solution
<elmorvano> in my opinion this would be a great option
<@Shoozza> post it on the forums
@Shoozza or zakath or anyone else who could make a statement here.
What are your thoughts about that?
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To make everyone happy we need 3 record modes:
autodemo should record the the whole map
pastdemo should record x minutes/seconds before the rec key was pressed (or at map start) and stop at when the key is pressed again (or at map end)
instantdemo should record between to rec key presses on the same map or stop at the end of the map (thats what people expect it to do) - basically pastdemo with 0 seconds pre record delay
Note that pastdemo would require soldat to always record stuff even if you dont want it to save anything, instant demo wouldn't require that (i hope).
I don't think there will be a map editor as the format for the demos changes quit a lot (we would have to figure out how to create a gameversion independent format or something)
Also faking demos would be possible with the map editor (cannot be used as a proof in cw/fw/etc)
If you notice issues between the demo and what was really happening ingame - the bugtracker awaits your reports (if they arent there already)
I want to talk to zakath about this stuff and see what the thinks though maybe i missed something since I don't recall exactly why the pastdemo sort of support was removed back then.
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in the past you could set a time in soldat config that you want to record
i raised my objections about this new demo recording to zakath (the author) when it was in beta versions (used exactly the same arguments - recording demos for purposes of saving cool actions is now useless) but zakath wasn't convinced
Moviemaking:
When you press F8 it should save the entire map from the start to the point you pressed F8
this is exactly how it works right now. If you don't press F8, entire map is saved, if you press F8 it is saved from the beginning to the point of pressing and new recording starts
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You got it right Shoozza
pastdemo should record x minutes/seconds before the rec key was pressed (or at map start)
I think 2 min would be good as defaultand stop at when the key is pressed again (or at map end)
Great, that's a step further than what I wanted, and opens up another possibility:
- Pressing rec key once saves the whole map. Pressing rec key twice only saves x min back in time
As opposed to:
- Pressing rec key once saves x min back in time (or at map start if x minutes hasn't past yet), if you don't press rec key again it will save the rest of the map
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Great, that's a step further than what I wanted, and opens up another possibility:
- Pressing rec key once saves the whole map. Pressing rec key twice only saves x min back in time
As opposed to:
- Pressing rec key once saves x min back in time (or at map start if x minutes hasn't past yet), if you don't press rec key again it will save the rest of the map
Only if you have the pastdemo time greater than the time at which you start recording
in the past you could set a time in soldat config that you want to record
i raised my objections about this new demo recording to zakath (the author) when it was in beta versions (used exactly the same arguments - recording demos for purposes of saving cool actions is now useless) but zakath wasn't convinced
Moviemaking:
When you press F8 it should save the entire map from the start to the point you pressed F8
this is exactly how it works right now. If you don't press F8, entire map is saved, if you press F8 it is saved from the beginning to the point of pressing and new recording starts
There have to be 2 record modes actually.
Autodemo and player triggered demo.
They have to be independent (so auto demo always saves the whole map but player triggered demo only records when the player triggers it)
Note that if the time is default time for pastdemo is 2min and you press f8 four times with 2sec delay you will have two demos from -120sec -> +2sec and -116sec -> 6sec so you can have multiple overlapping recordings.
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Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Any update about future plans on the demo recorder? Or will this not be 'fixed' / improved?
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Didn't read all but
what about a quick & dirty solution:
Just add some marker to the anyways long filename, like maybe "F8" to indicate that that file was user-recorded?! Or maybe even better: Use the old naming-convention for those files.
That way the interesting files can be found easily.
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Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Any update about future plans on the demo recorder? Or will this not be 'fixed' / improved?
There are no updates on this and I forgot about this already since I was working on 1.7 stuff and not on 1.6.8
I need a summary of it in the bugtracker marked as a feature so it can be assigned.
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Warning: this topic has not been posted in for at least 120 days.
Any update about future plans on the demo recorder? Or will this not be 'fixed' / improved?
There are no updates on this and I forgot about this already since I was working on 1.7 stuff and not on 1.6.8
I need a summary of it in the bugtracker marked as a feature so it can be assigned.
Could you remove the bug board on the forums then ? Kinda pointless to double post everything. Why should I make a bug report If everything is in the topic eh..
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Nah here is kind of like a discussion.
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No, everything needed is in here. I won't make a double post.
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No need then, ill just leave this tab open and sum stuff up in a few days, if i remember.
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Autodemo before 1.6.4:
1. Normal demo: [F8] starts and stops recording
2. Autodemo: Records in intervals of 2 min (00:00 to 02:00, 02:00 to 04:00...)
Pressing [F8] at 02:10 saves a 10 second demo from the start of the interval (02:00) to the time the demo was saved (02:10)
After a save, a new interval of 2 min starts (in this example 02:10 to 04:10...)
3. Demo naming: Normal demos: (demo0, demo2, demo3...) Autodemos: (autodemo0, autodemo2, autodemo3...)
You could quickly play the next demo by changing the demo name in the ip field: demo2 --> demo3
Pros/cons: You could loose parts of or whole sequences you wanted to save because of the intervals, but it was better for movie makers than what we have now because you wouldn't have to go through huge amount of long demos. Those who wanted to make sure they got everything could set Record_Time=10 in soldat.ini. Since a ctf round normally lasts 10 min there wouldn't be any intervals in the recording, you would however get a much longer demo to watch to get to the interresting part, especially if your desired sequence was at the end of the 10 minutes
After the change (1.6.4 and above):
We realised the need, specifically for leagues such as sctfl, to have an option to record and save everything without having to press [F8].
This was considered an ok option for movie makers aswell since it ensured that no sequence was lost by the intrevals.
Having both options wasn't approved because the we wanted less options in soldat.
The idea of saving x minutes back in time instead of intervals seamed too complex at the time.
The naming system was also reformed to better suit leagues (example: 2014-08-02_23-20-13_Blox).
Solutions:
A) Keep the current autodemo as an option since it's great for leagues.
B) Keep [F8] starts and stops recording (thats what people expect it to do)
C) Record everything and save the last x minutes (2min default) before [F8] keypress
D) Record everything and save last x minutes (2min default) before [F8] keypress once, save the whole map if [F8] keypress twice
E) Record everything and save the last 5 seconds before [F8] keypress + the time till the next [F8] keypress
F) Record only when [F8] keypress and save the last x minutes if [F8] is pressed again
Demo names:
G) Demos could go into folders. Example: Soldat/demos/2014-January
H) Autodemos could go into a different folder than when you press [F8] Example: Soldat/demos/auto-demos/2014-January and Soldat/demos/normal-demos/2014-January
I) User-recorded demos could use the old naming-convention (demo2), while autodemos could use the new naming (2014-08-02_23-20-13_Blox). Then you wouldn't need two subfolders either.
Other suggestions:
J) Dream of every climber: Autorecord from respawn to capture the flag
K) Demo editor: Bad idea, as the format for the demos changes quite a lot (we would have to figure out how to create a gameversion independent format or something)
Also faking demos would be possible with the map editor (cannot be used as a proof in cw/fw/etc)
- I strongly recommend solutions: A, B, C and I
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One suggestion concerning demos-recording that is needed: the option to toggle on/off cursor visibility.
And please, demos into screens/month/day folders, would help so much. :L
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One suggestion concerning demos-recording that is needed: the option to toggle on/off cursor visibility.
And please, demos into screens/month/day folders, would help so much. :L
This.
+ An option to Rewind/Fast Forward/Pause
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Also, large fries and a soda.
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One suggestion concerning demos-recording that is needed: the option to toggle on/off cursor visibility.
And please, demos into screens/month/day folders, would help so much. :L
This.
+ An option to Rewind/Fast Forward/Pause
Pause - Esc
Fast forward - F8
Rewind - none :/