Official Soldat Forums
Soldat Talk => Game Improvements / Suggestions => Topic started by: %%%%%%% on November 04, 2014, 03:54:57 am
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As the title suggests, this is a move that would allow you lay in a supine position (as opposed to prone, where you lay in a prone position).
Shooting in prone in mid-air, especially while jetting, allows you to attack while moving in.
Shooting in supine in mid-air would allow you to attack while retreating.
(http://xbox360media.ign.com/xbox360/image/article/122/1224777/Max-Payne-3-C_1337588314.jpg)
In terms of functionality, it'd be identical to prone. Doable in mid-air, works in conjunction with jet, etc.
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this sounds awesome and if it can work would be awesome!
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That's a pretty major change that will significantly affect mid-air combat. For the better or worse though - I don't know, but it's an interesting idea for sure.
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Any DEVs want to comment on this or maybe bistoufly could give his thoughts on this ;) ?
So basically if we are running backwards and jump+jet+hit prone we would do this move? Would this work? I want to know because it sounds pretty cool!
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Probably an interesting move. Let's gather some more thoughts on that.
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So basically if we are running backwards and jump+jet+hit prone we would do this move? Would this work? I want to know because it sounds pretty cool!
Yeah, it'd work exactly like prone does except your body would be facing up. I'm sure the development side of it would require little more than copy-pasting prone's code.
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This sounds like something which could actually be of benefit to the game, as long as it's applied in a consequent and well working fashion.
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Looks like interesting idea, however i would really like to see it made better than animations in storm2d. I really hate these new riggid animations by Transhuman. They remind me Monthy Python a little bit, but are awful and creepy.
Soldat look much more smooth and solid. I hope, if it will be the future feature of Soldat, it will be look as good as all other positions in the game.
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Although it sounds like a cool idea, but giving a move that simultaneously increase both offensive and defensive capability for the escaping player is just insane if you ask me, given how the game works...
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Although it sounds like a cool idea, but giving a move that simultaneously increase both offensive and defensive capability for the escaping player is just insane if you ask me, given how the game works...
Hmm... Let's imagine it. Flagger is flying and jeting in supine position, while, for e.g. 3 defenders chase him in superman (prone jet) position. And they are shooting to each other. Doesn't it look kinda stupid? ;D
I think it is very important adnotation, BKT.
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It would certainly change the movement aspect of gameplay, but it's not really necessary imo. Proning isn't really faster than cannonballing, which is preferred over proning anyways when you're running away from people.
I still would like to see it implemented because I could think of some pretty interesting combinations and new movement idea's right now.
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Add this for 1.6.9 please.
Since 'x' is the default control for prone; make 'c' the default control for supine. Pressing either x or c while in prone or supine will return to standing position.
If it doesn't catch on, you can always remove it in 1.7.0.
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What's happening with this
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There's literally no reason to not add this, aside from fear of changing the status quo.
Awaiting input as to the status of this addition from the dev team.
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With infinite ressources you might be right. However, developer number and time is limited, so priorities need to be set. I believe currently the focus is set differently. The supine position may be a good feature for old players, but I think new players won't choose this game more likely because of it - while on the other hand the graphical improvements seem like a big positive change for both old and new players
Adding this feature isn't as easy as you might think, it would surely take the devs several weeks to implement the new position including controls, network code, possibly scriptcore support, testing, and probably 2-3 alpha versions to fix the bugs.
I suppose if there ever comes a time where developer ressources are free, this can be considered again
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With infinite ressources you might be right. However, developer number and time is limited, so priorities need to be set. I believe currently the focus is set differently. The supine position may be a good feature for old players, but I think new players won't choose this game more likely because of it - while on the other hand the graphical improvements seem like a big positive change for both old and new players
Adding this feature isn't as easy as you might think, it would surely take the devs several weeks to implement the new position including controls, network code, possibly scriptcore support, testing, and probably 2-3 alpha versions to fix the bugs.
I suppose if there ever comes a time where developer ressources are free, this can be considered again
What are you even talking about. It's basically a carbon copy of prone and requires little more than copy/pasting prone's code and substituting a few variables.
It could probably be done in 30 minutes.
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What are you even talking about. It's basically a carbon copy of prone and requires little more than copy/pasting prone's code and substituting a few variables.
It could probably be done in 30 minutes.
+ making animations for gostek
+checking if it doesnt affect other animations smoothness(transition from one to another)
+ setting up controls
+checking how it would affect other gameplay, especially one of biggest, climb community
+spending time on testing if it doesnt mess anything
+ time for beta test
+ checking again if its work
Not everything seems so easy like copy-paste :]
Also I dont see the point of it. For now there is no problem to turn around and shoot, also when you run backward you gain more speed and you can make cannon ball to even make more speed and after that just prone and shoot, AND STILL MOVE BACKWARD.
I do this all the time and its not that hard...
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+ making animations for gostek
Oh, sorry. Forgot about gostek animations, which largely already exist in the game; it consists of first part of backwards roll into an upside down prone, so just a couple of frames to transition animations which are already made.
+checking if it doesnt affect other animations smoothness(transition from one to another)
Why would it if the animations already exist in the game.
+ setting up controls
Controls would be default 'c' and would work exactly like 'x' does for prone.
+checking how it would affect other gameplay, especially one of biggest, climb community
It will definitely affect gameplay; that's the whole idea.
Don't fear change. Do you want the gameplay to never evolve and include only some logical movements but not others?
Remember, this is a feature that could've been included in the inception of the game.
+spending time on testing if it doesnt mess anything
Why should it mess anything when the functionality is almost exactly like prone but facing up instead of down
+ time for beta test
Sounds a lot like the above
+ checking again if its work
Again, like the above; you just said testing, beta testing, then testing again.
Not everything seems so easy like copy-paste :]
Also I dont see the point of it. For now there is no problem to turn around and shoot, also when you run backward you gain more speed and you can make cannon ball to even make more speed and after that just prone and shoot, AND STILL MOVE BACKWARD.
I do this all the time and its not that hard...
The point is that it's a logical movement that should be included in the game. No one is saying that the above is hard or not doable, or even that it should be discontinued; just that this move should exist as well.
On the contrary, it's more realistic if someone has jetpacks to go into a supine position and shoot attackers instead of cannon-balling, turning around, proning in mid-air, shooting, then turning back and cannonballing again.
Come on, these aren't reasons not to implement this; they're just excuses.
TL;DR: You claim 'it takes a lot of time/resources', which isn't true; I guarantee the developers can probably easily add this in a fraction of the time it takes to HDify the game.
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@%: Is this the old discussion of "can this be added to the game?" I am glad I never got to see the Soldat source code, because I would undoubtedly have nightmares about it.
How about asking the guys who do the coding?
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Be our Guest %%%%%%% and start working on animation, there are tools to make animations of gostek in forum fan apps.
But... you have 30 minutes to do this... because its so easy right?
And why do you need to care about other games mode and communities? who care about players if few people want this? Who care, just do it right?
And like DarkCrusade, I would not like to see code of soldat...
I think that most of people think that soldat is made just like quake or unreal, with nice, cool editor, fancy addons and simple compilers, and changing something is just ctr+c ctr+v
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Akinaro, if Soldat existed without prone, you're the type of person that would still say "who care about prone if few people want this?" if someone suggested that we add prone position.
I especially find it hypocritical, and almost laughable, of you that you complain in other threads that newer maps aren't added as defaults to the game, when you're so against newer movements.
@DC, no it's not a discussion of whether it can be added.
It can definitely be added; I mean, I only dabbled with coding and I know how to script, but even I know that much is certain.
TheOne and Akinaro are simply trying to dismiss it as needing "too much time/work" and "not a priority", as if they're the authority on what makes something a priority.
And, maybe it's just me, but I don't think I need to literally ask a developer if they are able to put it in, when it's already been posted in the Game Improvements/Suggestions section of the forum and they've already seen it (and one has commented).
If it couldn't be done (which, again, it can, since the functionality is 100% like prone), they would have said so and nipped it in the bud.
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Wouldn't the prone cancel vial looking back be affected by this move?
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I'm sorry, you seem to have taken this personal, but I didn't intend to dismiss your suggestion. I know that it feels bad if you think about a nice addon to the game and it is not being supported.
You need to allow others to post their opinion, though. If you create a suggestion post you can expect people to express their opinion about it, even if they're not responsible about deciding. That's the point of a forum.
In this case, I wasn't even posting my own opinion on whether it suited the game or not. I just felt that this sentence of you was a little short-sighted:
There's literally no reason to not add this, aside from fear of changing the status quo.
and wanted to point out that there was more to be considered than whether it's a nice thing to have or not. Many people who are not experienced in programming (or specifically in soldat code) underestimate/misjudge the effort necessary to implement certain things. To bring that point into discussion, I told how I judge the effort needed to implement this, and how I perceive the current attitude of the developers (I might be wrong there and feel free to correct me), and combined them to what I think would be the expectable decision.
Maybe the way I wrote it was not very friendly. It must have sounded discouraging.
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Wouldn't the prone cancel vial looking back be affected by this move?
Yes, it would. Since you're flipping the direction in which the player would be shooting, you'd also need to flip the direction of the prone cancel to the other side (but, in terms of how it would look, it would still cancel when the player looks behind him).
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I'm sorry, you seem to have taken this personal, but I didn't intend to dismiss your suggestion. I know that it feels bad if you think about a nice addon to the game and it is not being supported.
You need to allow others to post their opinion, though. If you create a suggestion post you can expect people to express their opinion about it, even if they're not responsible about deciding. That's the point of a forum.
In this case, I wasn't even posting my own opinion on whether it suited the game or not. I just felt that this sentence of you was a little short-sighted:
There's literally no reason to not add this, aside from fear of changing the status quo.
and wanted to point out that there was more to be considered than whether it's a nice thing to have or not. Many people who are not experienced in programming (or specifically in soldat code) underestimate/misjudge the effort necessary to implement certain things. To bring that point into discussion, I told how I judge the effort needed to implement this, and how I perceive the current attitude of the developers (I might be wrong there and feel free to correct me), and combined them to what I think would be the expectable decision.
Maybe the way I wrote it was not very friendly. It must have sounded discouraging.
Oh, you're free to post your opinion, TheOne; I welcome it. Just don't post something as fact when it is merely your opinion.
And how can you claim that you "didn't intend to dismiss the suggestion" when these were your first sentences: With infinite ressources you might be right. However, developer number and time is limited, so priorities need to be set.
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Well this suggestion post shouldn't end in a discussion about who-said-what, but I find it really curious how we can misunderstand each other that much :D. It wasn't meant to dismiss your idea, but to point out that probably you have to prepare yourself for a longer wait before this gets implemented.
I also tried to express it as an opinion and not as a fact (indicated by I believe, I think, seem like, I suppose). The only sentence that comes close to stating a fact was this: Adding this feature isn't as easy as you might think, it would surely take the devs several weeks to implement the new position including controls, network code, possibly scriptcore support, testing, and probably 2-3 alpha versions to fix the bugs.
which isn't an opinion but an estimation from my personal experience :)
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I especially find it hypocritical, and almost laughable, of you that you complain in other threads that newer maps aren't added as defaults to the game, when you're so against newer movements.
Cool story bro but its like comparing fire to water :]
Get your mind together before you start this. Maps are totally different thing that adding movement that is literally not needed.
For now you are actually only person that want it so much. Rest of people actually care to thing about how it affect gameplay and they realize that its not your "30min work"
Its more laughable that YOU just dont get overall idea of putting such move to game, and you are so mad about it that instead of slowing down and thinking about it you still force this idea like some mad psychopath.
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And another great and important topic, which is destroyed by stupid people who get everything so serious, that the want make personal wars between each other rather than TALKING ABOUT THE ESSENCE OF THE TOPIC!!!!!!!!111oneone
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I think that supine position would be very interesting and would put a fresh air into the gameplay, giving it new options of playing style.
For eg. some players like running with, i dunno, MP5 + knife, and they pick up thrown knife every time after throwing it. Other people take LAW and throw it away to pick up a random primary weapon from ground to have an all-round weaponry at the time.
New moves would force players to change their habits, look fresh on their moves, train some new, maybe unique manners.
We have chainsaw kamikazes, barret/knife assasins, mp5 sprayrunners... every type of the player use different moves, I think it shoud be good thing to give the beaten styles some new options to rebuild or build up them.
For last years the main problem of balancing the gameplay was the discussion about balancing weapons to make them equally lethal, coaxing players to use different weapons - not only M79 or Barret, which were purely dominating about 1.4.2, if my memory is well. It wasn't the only way to make gameplay styles range more vast.
Look at some FPS games like Warrock or Borderlands-series (i can't remind any other adequate examples) - there are some classes of characters, which force players to play in a specific way.
In Warrock - character's class + gun + available vehicles on map
in Borderlands - chacter's class + weapons and shields rig + skills tree build + players style
I won't describe these mechanisms for LOL or DOTA because I don't play them too much (i'n the noobest noob) and I haven't enough knowledge about their gameplay to not make a fool of myself.
It make these games exotic - you watch some gameplay on YT and think "hey, this guy plays in different and slightly interesting style". There's small chance to reach this effect in Soldat gameplays, because of small range of factors which would affect players style. This state of the matter driven Soldat's gameplay reality to the one right.
There's a not too long list of moves, which you can perform. If you will not learn them, you will be deficient player which is worse than other, more teached ones.
The above right makes Soldat more difficult for newbies, which cause the known rejection of the whole game. "It is difficult, not well looking and with kinda hermetic society. This game doesn't offer me any good reason to play it."
Really, consider implementation of new positions/moves like supine position. It would give the gameplay more complexity in the positive way.
I don't think that I'm infallible, but I see some good perspectives which can make Soldat a more attractive game.
Trust me, I'm (not Soldat) game developer.
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I dont see the point of having a "game suggestions" subforum if every idea is just going to get shot down like this one. Both Akinaro and %% bring good points but ideas should at the very least be acknowledged by devs, especially ones that aren't stupid.
Sure it isn't a priority but if you want priority only then you should consider renaming the subforum "priority only suggestions".
Personally I think the idea is a cool one, but you would need to think about gameplay. Yes, %% it makes sense to not fear change but big changes like this could very well bury this game. I can already imagine people annoyingly bitch about this being broken, or unfair, especially since it seems to give retreating players the advantage, which goes against game philosophy for the most part.
Having said that, the whole point of this forum should be to discuss how this could affect gameplay. One party cannot just suggest something and expect it to be implemented because of a couple supporters and the other cannot shut down the conversation because it he/she thinks it isnt priority. Discuss how it could affect gameplay, thats the whole point of a forum, to discuss.
At the very least, itll encourage others to read and join. If you come to a conclusion and agree the idea would be a good one, atleast it would make the devs final decision (on whether or not to implement it) easier since they have arguments from both sides to read.
Having said that, Ill begin a proper discussion of how this could affect gameplay with what Ive kind of said already:
I would think this action would give retreating players more flexibility since they could now shoot and run while running. I would personally think that to be a negative thing. However, using this in short spurts on the ground to dodge shots (from above) might be pretty cool. Also what shoozza said about it affecting prone/cancel would be a big problem (since that is a big part of movement right now).
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I don't think it's logical to add a supine animation. Prone in air is just a side effect of the prone feature in it self, which has other uses like crawling on ground and sliding on ice. Would supine also be used same way (would it look good?) or would it just be an airborne movement? Also, what determines which position you go to - which direction key you press or which direction you're moving to? Can you turn from supine to prone and vice versa via switching sides with mouse or are they treated as separate features so the prone cancel technique won't get canned? It's a very hazy suggestion and it's not just a matter of being a low priority feature, it's also a low value feature. It sounds like it gives less than what it takes. If majority of people "lack the imagination" to see it's good sides as a feature, it's likely that it genuinely doesn't have any.
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I don't think it's logical to add a supine animation. Prone in air is just a side effect of the prone feature in it self, which has other uses like crawling on ground and sliding on ice. Would supine also be used same way (would it look good?) or would it just be an airborne movement? On the ground, it would be used the same way, except, aesthetically, your sprite would be on its back and looking/aiming towards its toes. The effective and unique change to the game would be in airborne movement.
Also, what determines which position you go to - which direction key you press or which direction you're moving to? This has been mentioned; the default key of 'c' would make you supine, just like 'x' makes you prone.
Can you turn from supine to prone and vice versa via switching sides with mouse or are they treated as separate features so the prone cancel technique won't get canned? You should be able to simply press 'c' to directly go to supine position from a prone, and looking backwards would cancel it just like it does for prone.
It's a very hazy suggestion and it's not just a matter of being a low priority feature, it's also a low value feature. It sounds like it gives less than what it takes. If majority of people "lack the imagination" to see it's good sides as a feature, it's likely that it genuinely doesn't have any. It's not a hazy suggestion at all; what part of "it works just like prone does" is so confusing for you? The only difference is that you're on your back looking up, and, if you have momentum or are jetting, moving the other direction.
I feel like you didn't really understand the concept at first glance, smiluu; hopefully, my explanation was clear and you'll give a more comprehensive opinion after giving it some thought, realizing it's not a low-priority, low-value feature.
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i don't like the idea as i think soldat's movement system is in a great state right now. not too complex, not too simple either.
and looking backwards would cancel it just like it does for prone.
how are you able to shoot backwards while retreating then? i thought it was one of the main points here.
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how are you able to shoot backwards while retreating then? i thought it was one of the main points here.
Refer to the picture in the OP.
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"looking backwards would cancel it"
if that's not looking backwards then i don't know what is but i'm just going to assume you made a mistake in your wording.
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"looking backwards would cancel it"
if that's not looking backwards then i don't know what is but i'm just going to assume you made a mistake in your wording.
You shouldn't just assume things, man. I didn't make a mistake in my wording; you made a mistake in your wording/comprehension when you said "how are you able to shoot backwards while retreating then?".
You're not shooting "backwards", per se. You're facing (and shooting) the enemies you're retreating from. Facing forwards and moving backwards (if you're in the air, jetting).
Refer to this image:
(http://i.imgur.com/ectQKMQ.jpg)
Now, if the pictured person was a Soldat sprite and you were to move the mouse and turn his neck so he looks behind himself (i.e. the "backwards" triangle), supine position would cancel.
Hope that clears things up for you.
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In mid-air firefight, retreating player already have vast advantage over the persuing attacker as it is, even with the mid-air proning. This, I hope, I don't have to explains why that is...
Giving the ability for retreating player to stick his feet out in the line of fire to cover the more vulnerable head and body while simultaneously gaining speed and return fire as well? ... ::)
Another thing: In the case of mid-air prone it make sense. But how would you shoot DOWNWARD on people below you in mid-air while doing this move anyway? You can't even look down at them properly with this posture, let alone shooting them with anything but a pistol! :P
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In mid-air firefight, retreating player already have vast advantage over the persuing attacker as it is, even with the mid-air proning. This, I hope, I don't have to explains why that is...
Giving the ability for retreating player to stick his feet out in the line of fire to cover the more vulnerable head and body while simultaneously gaining speed and return fire as well? ... ::)
No, please do explain how, currently, a player retreating has a vast advantage over his pursuer (even though it's a red herring).
More to the point, we won't know whether it's a good addition until it's added and alpha/beta tested. I'd, at the very least, reserve my judgement until then; it may shake up the gameplay positively or negatively, or maybe it won't change much and will just be different. Who knows.
Another thing: In the case of mid-air prone it make sense. But how would you shoot DOWNWARD on people below you in mid-air while doing this move anyway? You can't even look down at them properly with this posture, let alone shooting them with anything but a pistol! :P
Easy, you can have the sprite lean/look and hold the weapon to the side; either side works, but I'd probably add a randomizer so it chooses one side at random just to switch things up, which would also serve in creating a sense of relative distance between the shooter and his target (just like how when one sprite walks over another, one goes in front of the other). As Soldat is 2D, you won't see the majority of the gun if it's held on the 'far' side, since it's blocked by the sprite's torso.
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No, please do explain how, currently, a player retreating has a vast advantage over his pursuer (even though it's a red herring)
No point explaining it then. Good, I kinda lazy too! ;D
Easy, you can have the sprite lean/look and hold the weapon to the side; either side works
This would involve turning parts of your body/weapon toward or away from the screen; this seem like something that can't be done without it being look incredibly weird since everything is limited to 2d.
Though I doubt that would convince you to change your mind, so bleh :P
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Easy, you can have the sprite lean/look and hold the weapon to the side; either side works
This would involve turning parts of your body/weapon toward or away from the screen; this seem like something that can't be done without it being look incredibly weird since everything is limited to 2d.
Never mind that, it's not even necessary; we can just use the current graphic for aiming down when you're standing/crouching. The only difference would be that the sprite would be in a crunch position.
(http://i.imgur.com/zgIxqsT.png)
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Never mind that, it's not even necessary; we can just use the current graphic for aiming down when you're standing/crouching. The only difference would be that the sprite would be in a crunch position.
Of course you CAN always ignore all the pesky details and just do that, and it will work, just look really weird and make no sense :P
Cheers.
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Of course you CAN always ignore all the pesky details and just do that, and it will work, just look really weird and make no sense :P
Cheers.
1. It'd look fine and make as much sense as it does now for crouching.
2. "Of course you CAN always ignore all the pesky details"? Yeah, let's just imply that I'm doing that and effectively put words in my mouth. Good idea, but don't stop there; also sprinkle in some hyperbole with a few absolute words. That'll fool 'em.
I mean, it's not like it was an extra feature that I brainstormed and simply said wasn't necessary. Oh, wait, that's exactly what it was.
Honestly, you're really stretching your prejudice far, so much so that it's not even close to sensible nor constructive anymore.
I get it: you don't like the idea (thus far, for no actual reason); it's apparent there's nothing I can say to dissuade you, so I'm not going bother.
Naysayers will naysay, and sometimes they do it in a fallacious, subtly condescending, and patronizing manner.
"Cheers."
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Care to try drawing a stick figure of how this supposed to look? Crouching and looking down make sense. Supine and looking down (without leaning to the side) doesn't, unless you have your back and torso in the upright position and leg stretch horizontally, which then wouldn't be 'surpine position' and look stupid.
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Nah, I might as well draw a circle for you, 'cause there'd be no point.
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Just turn the gostek 90° from the position when you are jumping up and looking down and it's done. /thread
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Or turn the prone position upside down.
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Nah, I might as well draw a circle for you, 'cause there'd be no point.
I didn't elaborate my position about the gameplay bacause I drop that point of argument and stop mentioning it, so I'll assume the same for you. Very well then.
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*yawn* interesting banter you two. Might as well cast a vote and see if anyone actually wants a feature like this, doable or not.
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Whether it's wanted is a valid concern, but there's no question it's doable. I simply urge those that are against it to not be prejudice and withhold their final stance until they try it. I mean, it's bewildering to me why we wouldn't at least try it out/test it before giving judgement.
It's like what Akinaro said in another thread about how the old player base doesn't like change; his was in context of maps and graphics, but it rings true for gameplay as well, it seems. As an ironic aside, last I knew, he himself wasn't a fan of this idea.
I personally think it'd be a hit; if we start testing it and it doesn't work out, then we just won't add it to the game. Simple as that; no harm, no foul.
Who knows, though; maybe I'm just too close to the idea and presenting it in a bad way. Or maybe I'm a bad proponent and my defense of it is attracting more animosity than support.
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It is never a considered feature dated back in 2007. It kind of ruins the simplicity of soldat.
http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=19833.msg229127#msg229127
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http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=19833.msg229127#msg229127
Wow, thanks for that link. So it's not a new suggestion and, when suggested before, was a huge hit with the community; almost all of them thought it was a good idea.
Apparently the forum community was much more open and positive back then.
I mean, the idea is the exact same, even to what key to use. Wow.
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And again there is difference between initial wow effect, and thorough rethink about it with taking in to the account how exactly it should work and how it would affect other movements and gameplay.
Its not about openness and positive community, but about looking at it in wider perspective instead on focusing on your own preferences.
Its the same situation like with Depth of field blur effect on modern games.
Idea is good, and its look amazing on screenshoots... but when you play, its annoying when you want to look at something and you need to wave your cursor just to remove this blur, and for most of time this blur is too strong or not visible at all...
The same is here: beside initial WOW effect, and cool position for screenshoot, I can bet on my dog, my car and my wallet that at first people would use it for fun and then forget about it and not use it at all. And maybe 1-2% of people would try to use it, but everytime its gonna be hit and miss because soldat is too dynamic for such matrix movement that where made for slomo effect.
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I can bet on my dog, my car and my wallet that at first people would use it for fun and then forget about it and not use it at all.
I'll take that bet, if it gets implemented.
I might let you keep your dog, though.
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my dog is annoying, my wallet is empty an my car is a bit crappy :]
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... What do you expect people to react to you, %%%%%%%, when you presenting your idea like it was such an extraordinary idea that nobody could ever thought of before; so good, in fact, that "there's literally no reason to not add this" and must be implement immediatly because, according to you, it's so obvious that it would be no hassle at all to add it in.
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And its not like no one would like to have new movements.
For example I would love to see movement/animation when Gostek doesnt have gun in hand or have one handed gun, it could "hang" on wall like it would hold it, but only on corner of polygon. It could still shoot but aim would be worst and it would fall of after few sec.
Or kicking enemy to the ground after gaining some speed and hitting some key(like "C") It still would be hit and miss to match speed and moment to hit the key, so it would not be like everyone would kick them self everytime. Or instead of kicking him on ground you could kick his gun. And this movement could start some fighting mods and scripts so soldat could gain some new vibe to it.
There is loots ideas like that, but why for example Im not insisting to make it now?
Because hanging movement would mess a bit climb maps and it would be hard to implement and set polygon properties(because it would be hard to calculate when you can hang on polygon because of its size and closeness of other polygons)
And fly kick movement? It would be hard to set good speed to enable it and it could be messy after people would practice a bit with it, so everyone would kick them self... even if its sound fun...
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%%%%%%%, when you presenting your idea like it was such an extraordinary idea that nobody could ever thought of before
What the hell are you even talking about; it's like you're just looking to start trouble now
Since when did I ever say it was some genius idea that no one else could've ever thought of
In fact, I said the -exact opposite- and said that it was something that should've been included in the inception of the game (like another poster said in that older thread on the same suggestion), along with prone position, obviously implying that someone else should've thought of it before.
Don't put words in my mouth, BKT
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And its not like no one would like to have new movements.
For example I would love to see movement/animation when Gostek doesnt have gun in hand or have one handed gun, it could "hang" on wall like it would hold it, but only on corner of polygon. It could still shoot but aim would be worst and it would fall of after few sec.
Or kicking enemy to the ground after gaining some speed and hitting some key(like "C") It still would be hit and miss to match speed and moment to hit the key, so it would not be like everyone would kick them self everytime. Or instead of kicking him on ground you could kick his gun. And this movement could start some fighting mods and scripts so soldat could gain some new vibe to it.
There is loots ideas like that, but why for example Im not insisting to make it now?
Because hanging movement would mess a bit climb maps and it would be hard to implement and set polygon properties(because it would be hard to calculate when you can hang on polygon because of its size and closeness of other polygons)
And fly kick movement? It would be hard to set good speed to enable it and it could be messy after people would practice a bit with it, so everyone would kick them self... even if its sound fun...
What's your argument here, Akinaro
That, because a couple of moves that are truly more unique and harder to implement to the game than supine position (which is just an inverted prone) might not have much practicality/benefit or might mess up other game modes, other new moves (read: supine) shouldn't be implemented?
Why not make a separate forum thread in Suggestions for each one and allow people to judge those moves individually,
instead of grouping them together and turning it into a red herring/straw man argument in the supine suggestion thread
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Since when did I ever say it was some genius idea that no one else could've ever thought of
I never said you did.
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Jesus Christ. You bashing BKT for what you actually doing.
You behave like this supine position is your own child and you need to protect it with your own life and no matter of what you need to say that is amazing and needed. No it's not needed. It's just fancy position that have no real benefits in sold at game.
As I said before look at in in more wider perspective than your own nose. And ask yourself why it was not implemented ? Because it's useless if you think about it longer. There is initial woe effect of how cool it is but then if you have brain you realize that its cool only on screen shoots or games that have bullet time or are not that dynamic like sold at where typical match is a brutal chaos.
And my point about mentioned movements?
Point is, that Im trying to think about it before start whining that it need to be implemented. There is lots of nice ideas for soldat but half of them are hard to implement and are not priority and other beside cool look are useless in every way... Just like this supine position.
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%%%%%%%, when you presenting your idea like it was such an extraordinary idea that nobody could ever thought of beforeSince when did I ever say it was some genius idea that no one else could've ever thought of
I never said you did.
You implied it; don't be pedantic.
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You implied it
No.
Don't put words in my mouth, %%%%%%%
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Yup, you're right, BKT. You beat me.
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
― Mark Twain
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Jesus Christ. You bashing BKT for what you actually doing. Not at all; he essentially put words in my mouth for no reason but to cause drama, whereas I am merely rebutting fallacious arguments
You behave like this supine position is your own child and you need to protect it with your own life Don't exaggerate. And I made this supine suggestion thread, so of course I'm going to be a proponent for it, post to that end, and defend my stance against unfair nonconstructive criticism, libel, and lies. If I didn't care about the suggestion enough to defend it from such, then I never would have made it at all.
and no matter of what you need to say that is amazing and needed. No it's not needed. I never once said "Soldat needs supine"; again, there you go putting words in my mouth. I simply said supine position should be added to the game and that it's a mistake not to add it.
It's just fancy position that have no real benefits in sold at game.Not true at all; besides, how would you know that if it's never been added in Soldat. Prejudice is unbecoming.
As I said before look at in in more wider perspective than your own nose. And ask yourself why it was not implemented ?Probably because after it was initially overlooked, devs didn't care about some suggestions (see the old thread on the same topic, for example)
Because it's useless if you think about it longer. Wrong. It's about as useful for defense and accuracy as prone is for offense and accuracy. You're spewing crap and presenting them as facts, no proof.
There is initial woe effect of how cool it is but then if you have brain you realize that its cool only on screen shoots or games that have bullet time or are not that dynamic like sold at where typical match is a brutal chaos. Does prone have an initial wow effect but then doesn't fit Soldat's gameplay? It's literally as dynamic as prone, what don't you get
And my point about mentioned movements?
Point is, that Im trying to think about it before start whining that it need to be implemented. There is lots of nice ideas for soldat but half of them are hard to implement and are not priority and other beside cool look are useless in every way... Just like this supine position. Hard to implement: wrong. Useless other than looking cool: wrong. Again, it's an inverted prone, shouldn't be this difficult for you to understand.
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I don't get how do you equate
you behave ...
which is what I did imply, to
you say ...
???
Maybe I should heed Mark Twain wise word in regard to this ...
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."
― Mark Twain
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I don't get how do you equateyou behave ...
which is what I did imply, toyou say ...
???
Nice try, you said you presenting your idea like it was such an extraordinary idea that nobody could ever thought of before
which implies that I think it's such.
It doesn't matter, though. I'm done with you; trying to make you understand something is impossible.
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There is just no point to discuss it with you.... :/
No matter what someone say you still gonna mention that its just a prone, technically confirming our point that its not needed.
And in the same way you gonna mention that ""its the same like prone was useless"" without even thinking that prone is basic move and this matrix trick is not.
You gonna now drag old topic from 2007 saying it was mentioned loots of time...(no comment)
You gonna cry that we put words in your mouth. No we dont, we see how you write about it and that how it look. deal with it.
You still think that its so simple like reversing prone... if we would think like that we could say that changing small car to tank is just matter or resizing it... No f comment about that either.
You think that it would be ""useful for defense and accuracy as prone"" not seeing how stupid this is because It cant be accurate at all(you fly and you have your legs on line of fire)
For us maybe its ""difficult to understand"" your point, but for you its difficult to understand that its not so simple like reversing prone, and in wider perspective its not that cool and you think.
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There is just no point to discuss it with you.... :/
No matter what someone say you still gonna mention that its just a prone, technically confirming our point that its not needed.
And in the same way you gonna mention that ""its the same like prone was useless"" without even thinking that prone is basic move and this matrix trick is not.
You gonna now drag old topic from 2007 saying it was mentioned loots of time...(no comment)
You gonna cry that we put words in your mouth. No we dont, we see how you write about it and that how it look. deal with it.
You still think that its so simple like reversing prone... if we would think like that we could say that changing small car to tank is just matter or resizing it... No f comment about that either.
You think that it would be ""useful for defense and accuracy as prone"" not seeing how stupid this is because It cant be accurate at all(you fly and you have your legs on line of fire)
For us maybe its ""difficult to understand"" your point, but for you its difficult to understand that its not so simple like reversing prone, and in wider perspective its not that cool and you think.
1. I didn't say "it's just a prone" (thereby making it redundant and unneeded); I said it's to defense/retreating & accuracy as prone is to offense/attacking & accuracy.
2. If prone is a basic move, this is too. Stop misrepresenting it by saying "matrix trick".
3. You did put words in my mouth, even in your last post (see 1.)
4. It is, more or less, as simple as prone, code-wise, and inverting prone, graphics-wise.
5. By "accuracy", I mean that prone and supine would have similar Movement acc effect in WM. Also, your legs wouldn't be in your line of fire, because you spread your legs when shooting from supine position.
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BTW ...
... and defend my stance against unfair nonconstructive criticism, libel, and lies.
I lol'd ;D
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To clarify, this is the "matrix trick(s)" that Akinaro equated with supine position: https://youtu.be/ggFKLxAQBbc?t=26 (https://youtu.be/ggFKLxAQBbc?t=26)
And this is actual supine position shooting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62JHtpqlg7Q&feature=youtu.be&t=61 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62JHtpqlg7Q&feature=youtu.be&t=61)
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BTW ...
... and defend my stance against unfair nonconstructive criticism, libel, and lies.
I lol'd ;D
The same... :D
In every post %%%%%%% make he just point out what we are talking about here...
Even this video you posted show clearly how useless this move is... compared to just prone...and shoot.
Also I have no idea why the hell you posted this matrix movie... you realize that saying "matrix move" I mean fly supine move like matrix/Max Payne you putted on your first post not dodge move...
Seriously there is no point of writing anything here anymore... its useless, because every constructive & thoughtfuly post we make you turn to shouting "but its coool move! u no know nothing! its simpleee"
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Sorry, didn't realize you edited your post:
Even this video you posted show clearly how useless this move is... compared to just prone...and shoot.
This is very subjective. Moreover, unless you've been in combat/went to war (like I did), you're not qualified enough to make that claim. They each have their uses in different combat situations.
Also I have no idea why the hell you posted this matrix movie... you realize that saying "matrix move" I mean fly supine move like matrix/Max Payne you putted on your first post not dodge move...
Can you blame me? You said "matrix trick"; that dodge scene is what most people would think you mean by saying that.
Seriously there is no point of writing anything here anymore... its useless, because every constructive & thoughtfuly post we make you turn to shouting "but its coool move! u no know nothing! its simpleee"
Show me your constructive and thoughtful posts.
And, there you go, putting words in my mouth again; I never once stated that it should be added because "it's a cool move", like some fanboy. It's just a movement, as simple as proning, crouching, and jumping, and is as "cool" as any of those. I said it should be added because it's a no-brainer that should've logically been added alongside its brother (i.e. prone), fits the gameplay, and would add depth to movement, especially in aerial combat.
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Moreover, unless you've been in combat/went to war (like I did), you're not qualified enough to make that claim. They each have their uses in different combat situations.
hahahahahhahahhahaha.... oh men I almost pissed my self from laughing xD
Like most of Polish citizens born in 80 I had military training, so you dont need to say such funny things, because I seriously have no idea what military training have to do WITH F GAME. I repeat my self: <<GAME>>.
Dont compare Soldat to real life scenerios because, guess what? in real life we dont have boot jets, we dont do backflips and we cant jump 10m.
Also In real life, if you really had military training, you would know that such moves are not that efficient and are just useless when you are under the enemy fire. Its all about cover and orientation in area. its not GAME, when you act like kamikaze-rambo. So stop comparing it to real life, its a GAME.
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Then you'd know they each have their uses, especially when you factor in the jet-boots.
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Here's something to ponder — There was a time that there's no backflip (and it's bastard child, dubbed 'cannonball', or as I called it, the 'Blanka roll' ;D)
The motion that you perform to execute the backflip move (from ground, jump backward and hold key + jet) would be a perfect fit and a natural way to perform this surpine position move thing if such move were to be added.
But instead of that, we get the backflip. Hmm, I wonder why... ::)
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I would love to see a test server where we can test this stuff out. It's silly to just decide yes or no based on speculation alone.
I understand that it takes time to create, but perhaps a crude version of it, as well as other suggestions, could be added to some kind of test server in the future.
I love the idea of supine position. Also would be cool if jetting both back and forward didn't cause you to sink so much.
I'm trying to think of how this would cause any issues, and so far I can't. It seems like it's just worth trying.
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It has to be implemented in client, not in the server, so if anything, there might be a beta client to try it out, not beta server.
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Sorry Falcon, that makes more sense. I would love to see a beta client to test things like this out on : )
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4 pages of complaints and nothing concrete, additional key for supine position is just bad.
First of all let's talk about current prone position, if we will pass the cursor through red line it will be cancelled(I was always curious why... just lay yourself(in prone position) on the floor and try to look at your ceiling, possible? well, you are probably haunted)
(http://s2.postimg.org/6sg3r3ysl/supine1.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6sg3r3ysl/)
I've always thought it's something like that...
(http://s8.postimg.org/oj4dhwl01/supine2.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/oj4dhwl01/)
Now let's change it to x axis
(http://s11.postimg.org/57gflemeb/supine3.png) (http://postimage.org/)
When the cursor is over red line we would be in supine position, when under we would be in prone position. Both positions would be cancelled and triggered only on pressing X key, if you would be in straight position then y axis would determine the direction you will be flying after pressing X(just like in current Soldat). If u would like to make supine position while retreating with flag(running to the right) just look to the right -> press X(+activate jet) -> now look to the left side and move your cursor over yourself.
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Nice Savage, I love it!!
I was thinking that two keys would be fine, but honestly that looks like a really fluid way to design it! Really would be cool to try it out.
This is confusing the hell out of me, and I had to edit this a million times.
With the above model, how does one approach an enemy with his feet first?
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With the above model, how does one approach an enemy with his feet first?
What do you mean exactly cause I don't get it.
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But stll there is no point of it.
Its fight against this:
(http://s26.postimg.org/hmlcj9lbd/nrm.gif)
and this:
(http://s26.postimg.org/931ylicyx/image.gif)
One look bad but its efficient, quick and you can move cursor left and right with no problems, and you can jump up after that keeping the speed, and use jet to retreat up.
And other look cool, but its slow, and most important, when you prone like that you going really quick down(even with jet) and you would need t roll when you hit the ground, because without that you would just lie on the ground and all that speed you had would be waisted.
To be honest sometimes i think this would be more efficient that this supine position:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vwUH5vX2AWI/TxMT_9XC_FI/AAAAAAAAAbA/oT5AkRArV4o/s1600/Shooting-bow-and-arrow-with-feet.jpg)
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4 pages of complaints and nothing concrete, additional key for supine position is just bad.
First of all let's talk about current prone position, if we will pass the cursor through red line it will be cancelled(I was always curious why... just lay yourself(in prone position) on the floor and try to look at your ceiling, possible? well, you are probably haunted)
(http://s2.postimg.org/6sg3r3ysl/supine1.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/6sg3r3ysl/)
I've always thought it's something like that...
(http://s8.postimg.org/oj4dhwl01/supine2.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/oj4dhwl01/)
Now let's change it to x axis
(http://s11.postimg.org/57gflemeb/supine3.png) (http://postimage.org/)
When the cursor is over red line we would be in supine position, when under we would be in prone position. Both positions would be cancelled and triggered only on pressing X key, if you would be in straight position then y axis would determine the direction you will be flying after pressing X(just like in current Soldat). If u would like to make supine position while retreating with flag(running to the right) just look to the right -> press X(+activate jet) -> now look to the left side and move your cursor over yourself.
Please, read it again Akinaro cause you probably didn't get my idea.
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I get your idea :]
And still core idea behind have no real benefits in gameplay.
So what if we can turn up/down when you are in prone to enable that position. If you would use jet in this moment, thanks to magic of gravity, you would go down like bullet, and you would need to play with x key and mouse to correct flight, like you doing now with just prone, but here you would also need to take care to set supine position again.
And for example you would like to retreat right and shoot using eg barrett.
Using your technique we would spend that precious second on moving cursor right, press x/jet look left, then over gostek, and again right. and we would need again press x to cancel it.
And if you would use jet in this moment you would also need to correct aim, because you would go down like bullet, and because speed you would gain you would have less than half of second to make it, AND still think about correcting your movement to land on good position and not loosing your speed.
Im not against adding something new to game but looking at this in overall, you would not gain anything from it.
If you would retreat with flag its better to do cannonball and keep that speed and time to aim your landing position and without loosing that all you can just turn around and shoot, because if you know your speed and position of enemy you can calculate where to aim to kill him, and if you want better aim you turn around prone, shoot, and turn around again to cancel prone and you have that precious moment to land/correct flight.
In 3D game its good because you can jump left/right-back and roll to hide in cover. Soldat is not only in 2D its just too dynamic for that type of movement to make 100% from it.
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Bad idea it looks unrealistically dont make this game fantasy how rambo...
(https://i.ytimg.com/vi/TxBlUdIw6zk/hqdefault.jpg)
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Savage,
Let's say your face is facing right, and you are prone. You then aim up over the red line, then do you swap to supine with your feet forward or backwards? In other words, does you head change positions or not?
I imagined that you meant that your head would stay in the same place and your feet would continue to face left rather than right, allowing you to shoot backwards more effectively.
In that situation, however, how would one jump into the air, and while moving towards an enemy, switch to supine with his feet forward, while moving forward.
I think I already understand the answer to this question. You would simply run forward, jump, then aim behind you in order to supine while moving forward (feet forward).
Akinaro,
I think the usefulness would more be for midair fights and backwards worming while aiming forward. With supine, one could worm while aiming forward and moving backwards, which would be amazing for the game in my opinion. I don't think it would be used in place of cannonball, and would only be used a bit while retreating in select situations. It would definitely have it's place for that I think. I am not sure if Savage's model can achieve fluid backwards worming or if you would need a different key, still wrapping my mind around it. Also, it would likely replace prone completely in mid air fights where both players are at the same height. Why have your head forward? It would also end up being used at the end of every prone jet dive in order to get your feet forward first, which is always better than your head first (or usually). The process would be a bit odd however without a separate key unless crossing the red line swaps your feet and head. You would have to prone, jet forward, then unprone, aim behind you, and supine, which might not work. But I have to admit, the game would look pretty dumb if everyone was jetting forward then switching to have their feet forward for every dive lol. Savage's model seems pretty realistic, just not sure about backwards worming, which I think would be the only real good purpose of supine.
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You also need to take in to the account how it would affect eg. Climb mode. Today almost half of playerbase is from climb and to be honest it's best backup plan for soldat(not action game but arcade).
Now imagine how it would affect eg long ice slide. When you prone on ice and when reaching end of polygon you stand up and look back, sometimes doing canonball. If we would have this mode gostek instead of standing up and looking back would go to supine position.
It's only small part of gameplay but those small parts sometimes are really annoying.
If this 5-20% of players really need this position to feel better, just set that position to new key, so it would not affect rest of players that would be more pissed off because they would need to play with mouse and default keys just to turn around or prone.
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(http://s26.postimg.org/931ylicyx/image.gif)
Akinaro, thanks for making that mock-up of how it would look. Though, since supine position's main benefit to gameplay will be in midair combat, it'd be better to illustrate it in a map where the gostek is jetting over ground that's sloping downwards (which can be found in almost every CTF map). Imagine the gostek has taken the flag and is retreating back to their base; that exemplifies the usage for seamless shooting capability while maintaining speed and mobility.
My skills are nowhere near yours, so if you could make a .gif illustrating that, I'd be most grateful. Ideally, the gostek would have the flag and pursuers trying to kill him and return it. Please let me know if I can be of help in any way.
The other use would be the straight-up midair fights, which Wes was talking about, where you could supine and unsupine (to varying degrees of 'worminess') in order to dodge shots, have the same moveacc benefit as prone when you shoot, and have your head blocked by most of your body if your opponent is horizontal from you.
In terms of what Savage and Wes are talking about regarding having one key for prone and supine and having prone cancel at the x axis and not the y axis, except prone cancel would actually switch prone to supine instead when you put it above the x axis and then switch back when you put it below: I can see that working, but only if the head and feet are in the same area and the body simply switches from facing down to facing up. The angle at which your body is descending, especially when jetting, doesn't change whether you're in prone or supine.
But yeah, having the feet go to the other side like Wes mentioned also doesn't make sense to me.
When initiating the position, it would depend on which direction you're both running and facing (i.e. where your cursor is relating to your gostek). If you're facing the same direction you're moving and press the button, you'll go into prone position; if you're facing the opposite direction you're moving, supine position (just as Akinaro's .gif depicts).
I really like that idea; it may be a better one than having an independent key for supine.
Note, however, that this, i.e. getting rid of cursor-prone cancel (key-pronecancel would still work) might be a big change for players, and thus might not be well received; then again, neither was this suggestion of supine position in this thread :D.
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Let's say your face is facing right, and you are prone. You then aim up over the red line, then do you swap to supine with your feet forward or backwards? In other words, does you head change positions or not?
If you went to prone or supine facing right(legs on the left, head on the right) then NO MATTER where your mouse is your head is still on the right side(if your head is on the right side and you are aiming left then you would just simply shoot between your legs, this vid explains everything https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TVN1xrHcUU), the prone&supine would be NEVER cancelled by the game but ONLY by the player.
LOLED so much on this one, it's not even cannonball xDDD
(http://s26.postimg.org/hmlcj9lbd/nrm.gif)
And that one is slow as F**K
(http://s26.postimg.org/931ylicyx/image.gif)
If you would ask climbers to add key for cannonball they would laugh from you loudly.
If you would use jet in this moment, thanks to magic of gravity, you would go down like bullet, and you would need to play with x key and mouse to correct flight, like you doing now with just prone, but here you would also need to take care to set supine position again.
IN caves or something like lower part of ctf_Ash I would use ONLY cannonball(you would die quickly with your animation on C key). Imagine now you are going to cap the flag from upper part of ctf_Ash(over that building) what would you do? go to prone with jet to cap flag asap AND I would like to kill some f*gs trying to kill me from behind.(How would your animation do that?!)
Climb community would be affected WITH YOUR C KEY cause it would has it's own animation&trajectory so it would make some new maps with jumps impossible to do with cannonball or backflip. I don't see any problems with my idea in climb.
How would my idea affect? By nothing but only more enjoyable gameplay, I was always mad on cancelling prone itself when i saw enemy under me.
About worming, where's the problem? It's not hard to crawl in supine position but overall I would make changing from prone to supine a little bit at higher angle like this
(http://s12.postimg.org/ypb1es11l/Bez_tytu_u.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/ypb1es11l/)
Bring here all climbers and ctf players and ask them(Your animation would be used by 1% of the players, in ctf you has to be fast and two keys X and C would make everyone confused)
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And it should be cannonball? Its made by law that you always need to perform cannonball?
And of course feel free to make better animation-example. Or its better to complain about something that was made in less than 15min just as an example?
Be my guest and prepare better one with tips made by %%%%%%%
Ill wait :]
Also I though that you know better than me or anyone else climb. I can ensure you that you would see massive rage and quits because of that. Not only because its "something new that mess with old" but knowing life if it would be implemented with loots of bugs and fixes for few version.
Its almost the same situation with new graphic for gostek. Overall size is almost 90% the same like old one, but still people want to use old one... Just because new have more details that give that "feel" of difference compared to old one.
Small almost invisible change and people compain and we talk about gameplay part of Soldat...
But beside that about what we talking about here?
If someone say me that you can put that method of supine position in game and you cant change menu to be more "modern"/easier to mod or put longer animation in game or even make auto-update... I seriously would think that its somesort of april fool joke...
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I would much prefer supine/backwards jump instead of cannonball. I.e. I would prefer an actual feature that's explained in a manual or game tutorial and is reasonably easy to master for average player (just like backflip) instead of an undocumented exploit of game's buggy game engine.
prone cancel would actually switch prone to supine instead when you put it above the x axis and then switch back when you put it below
Eh, don't think this is a good idea. When you cannonball or prone-jet while running away - you can't shoot back at your enemy, or in case of cannonball - can't shoot at all. It's a fair trade-off between speed and defense. That trade-off is gone if you can freely aim in every direction while chaining prone-jumps. IMO prone cancel should be left in. Other than that I agree.
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You can document the cb as a game feature just as well as you can do it for backlfip lol. When you do a BF you hold A/D+W and hit RMB, when in CB you have to do the same but hold S aswell, then release W. Except for it being harder than any other move in the game, it can be described just as precise as any other one ^.- but i don't see the reson in getting rid of the mechanic just because its harder for new players to learn than other jumps :x
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I would prefer an actual feature that's explained in a manual or game tutorial
First you would need to update "manual" because in current 1.7 version manual is from 2008(in game files as a "current version" appears 1.4.2 ) :]
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Not that it's 5 pages too late, but I've asked among active dev team members if there's anyone that'd care to even start considering implementing that, and we all agreed that it's buried so deep down in the TODO list that it's not gonna happen anytime soon, if at all. Sorry guys, there are more important things we're doing right now (GUI, Physics).
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First off, Savage thanks for posting that Matrix clip of Trinity going from prone to supine like we were discussing; it's a very good representation. But then the rest of your post: what the heck are you even going on about.
Then how did we even get to the topic of substituting supine for cannonball? That's ridiculous. Cannonball is independent of, and unaffected by, supine position; it will not be changed and will remain in the game.
I've asked among active dev team members if there's anyone that'd care to even start considering implementing that, and we all agreed that it's buried so deep down in the TODO list that it's not gonna happen anytime soon, if at all. Sorry guys, there are more important things we're doing right now (GUI, Physics).
There are always "more important things". Supine isn't a huge messy project like fixing netcode/packetloss/eats. And the developer(s) that work on it could always just dedicate a little time here and there when they're feeling burnt out from working on other higher priority issues. Plus, it could always be ranked a higher priority on the To-Do list.
(http://i.imgur.com/Axk55wE.png)
Akinaro also wrote something just this past week that I feel applies to this:
And you think that people didnt do stuff here? Most of users here did something, menu mockups, maps, interfaces
So what? People like something, people use something, but all you can do is just wait for devs to even think about it, because they have source code/files of soldat. For all those 20000 years of soldat its always the same: "there are priorities" "Not now" "We cant now".
Soldat is probably only project that I saw in my life that have so much troubles with such simple features like making 1-2 longer animation or making auto-update system.
Maybe it's time you guys sought out more developers and delegated them appropriately. See DC's post in the "Roadmap" thread:You can use standardised time management techniques and apply them to your programming as well. The below matrix is a very simple but effective one:
(https://www.teamwork.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Controlling-Your-Day-Rather-than-it-Controlling-You.png)
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That priority list is not done. I have just placed some stuff in random order on that list, and it's basically my suggestion to the devs, they do not have to follow it and I don't think all devs have even seen it.
But ye, if you were trying to show there are higher priorities, you are right
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I would say it is similar to rewriting the netcode due to extensive testing and messy code.
The whole movement code is very fragile.
I had the idea about this movement before this thread actually, but it was always because it seemed cool to have it not because it improves something.
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and as usual hear ... "Net code"... reportedly 1.7 had to be rewritten all
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Please no.
Sorry for my lack of enthusiasm for your suggestion. You've clearly put a lot of thought and effort in to elaborating on this idea but...
Please no.
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Please no.
Sorry for my lack of enthusiasm for your suggestion. You've clearly put a lot of thought and effort in to elaborating on this idea but...
Please no.
Any reason why not?
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Any reason why not?
Sure. Core game mechanics. The way that a Soldier interacts with the game and the tactics deployed equate to the games essence. Gameplay on the whole has always felt pretty balanced to me. The way I envision your suggestion being implemented in an in-game situation would amount to a drastic change in gameplay, particularly in CTF. Allow me to elaborate...
A) As I'm sure you're aware, being good at using existing movements is an integral aspect of being good at Soldat. Being able to both retreat and return fire whilst evading enemy fire i.e. switching to & from supine, AS WELL as maintaining momentum I believe would create an unfair advantage. Currently whilst retreating/flag running you can either opt to return fire AND maintain momentum, leaving yourself open to incoming fire OR you can opt to evade attacks (prone switching) AND return fire sacrificing momentum OR you can opt to gain momentum AND evade attacks (prone+jet/switching) sacrificing ability to return fire. These three variables offer good strategic gameplay and overall balance. I think that if your idea was used everyone retreating/flag running would simply opt to supine jet away because you wouldn't have to sacrifice any abilities - speed - evasion - defence.
B) In a combat situation where a Soldier approaches you, you could effectively direct incoming fire at your feet taking less damage whilst still returning fire. Similar to point A and to what L[0ne]R said this would create an unfair trade off.
C) I use X for crouch and C for prone. E has always felt somewhat awkward for me so in my personal circumstance I would have nowhere to map this feature.
D) I went into this a little deeper than I had intended to. Above all I am very stubborn when it comes to Soldat. I don't like change. Especially not such drastic changes to the core game mechanics. My initial reaction to your suggestion was no, no and more no. Simply based on the fact that it is 'change' but I also think the points I make are valid ones. Though I do see some merit in your suggestion in that it could look quite cool to have Soldiers supine off of structures or away from explosions but I think the novelty would wear of quickly and we'd be left with what is ultimately a huge game changer.
I hope that satisfies your query, Sir.
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Sure. Core game mechanics. The way that a Soldier interacts with the game and the tactics deployed equate to the games essence. Gameplay on the whole has always felt pretty balanced to me. The way I envision your suggestion being implemented in an in-game situation would amount to a drastic change in gameplay, particularly in CTF. Allow me to elaborate...
A) As I'm sure you're aware, being good at using existing movements is an integral aspect of being good at Soldat. Being able to both retreat and return fire whilst evading enemy fire i.e. switching to & from supine, AS WELL as maintaining momentum I believe would create an unfair advantage. Currently whilst retreating/flag running you can either opt to return fire AND maintain momentum, leaving yourself open to incoming fire OR you can opt to evade attacks (prone switching) AND return fire sacrificing momentum OR you can opt to gain momentum AND evade attacks (prone+jet/switching) sacrificing ability to return fire. These three variables offer good strategic gameplay and overall balance. I think that if your idea was used everyone retreating/flag running would simply opt to supine jet away because you wouldn't have to sacrifice any abilities - speed - evasion - defence.
B) In a combat situation where a Soldier approaches you, you could effectively direct incoming fire at your feet taking less damage whilst still returning fire. Similar to point A and to what L[0ne]R said this would create an unfair trade off.
C) I use X for crouch and C for prone. E has always felt somewhat awkward for me so in my personal circumstance I would have nowhere to map this feature.
D) I went into this a little deeper than I had intended to. Above all I am very stubborn when it comes to Soldat. I don't like change. Especially not such drastic changes to the core game mechanics. My initial reaction to your suggestion was no, no and more no. Simply based on the fact that it is 'change' but I also think the points I make are valid ones. Though I do see some merit in your suggestion in that it could look quite cool to have Soldiers supine off of structures or away from explosions but I think the novelty would wear of quickly and we'd be left with what is ultimately a huge game changer.
I hope that satisfies your query, Sir.
Thanks for elaborating, and I appreciate your candor in admitting that you don't like change.
To your points:
A) Those that are better at Soldat already have an advantage over other players; they are already able to return fire, evade attacks, and maintain momentum better than other players. Since this move will be available to all players, equally benefiting all players, those aforementioned good players will still have that same advantage.
B) Again, like A, an advantage for everyone is an advantage for no one. Both players can go into supine so the feet take some of the incoming fire.
C) The suggestion's being going the way of having prone cancel replaced with supine position; so no added key would be needed. However, if a separate key was needed, most players use the default 's' for crouch and have 'c' unmapped. You're a rarity, darling; in your case, you could map it on 'z' or even the default 's'.
D) To me, this is your truest and most valid reason and, like I said, I appreciate your candor. You seem like a reasonable guy; would you be willing to try out the move in a beta to both test the validity of your other points and also challenge your stubbornness to change and see whether it actually improves gameplay, worsens it, or just changes it to something different?
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and as usual hear ... "Net code"... reportedly 1.7 had to be rewritten all
The netcode was not rewritten, it was reverted to 1.6.8 netcode due to issues in the library change introduced in 1.6.9 with lagspikes.
What this means is that we did only change code where necessary to replace some windows specific network library in 1.6.9 but it caused issues.
A similar thing can be expected for something like movement changes due to its fragility.
@You Got Served!
Thank you for your post. I agree that fleeing and attacking would shift the balance towards less fair gameplay. It is already hard enough to attack someone fleeing and i see no reason to make it even more difficult.