Mysticism Part 2: God

[Smegma]

Its time for another bad thread.

Okay, so I felt the first topic didn't generate much input as it may have been too vague. So, I decided to narrow it a bit and assume you believe in a God. My question this time is:

If you do believe in a God, what kind of God is it? Pantheistic, Panentheistic, Transcendent, or just something else?

Also, if you don't believe in God then imagine that one does exist what would it nature would it have to be like?

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

I think it was C. S. Lewis's Mere Christianity that drew a strict distinction between things God creates and things God begets.  To beget something means to make something that IS you, like one human begetting another.  This is quite a bit different than creation, which is making something entirely different; an example would be someone carving a statue.  Sure, the statue still resembles the creator, and the nature and manner of its creation can tell us about the creator, but the two are very distinct.

The Bible (my source for anything pertaining to God) only mentions God ever begetting one thing: Jesus.  The Son requires the Father to exist, yet the two are still the same thing.  Everything else in the world (galaxies, air, people, angels, you name it) are all creations.  This rules out both a pantheistic and a panentheistic God for the Christian religion.

To a large extent, the Christian God is very transcendent; obviously, we'll never be able to completely understand him, and any true god would have to be significantly removed from the universe - unhindered by the limitations of space or time.  On the other hand, the Christian religion is unique in how it says that people can have a personal relationship with God.  In fact, a very large component of Christianity is giving up our human desires, actions, and other shortcomings, and let God come into us to do what he wants.  Humans don't become more like God; rather, people become less like humans.  So from this viewpoint, God isn't transcendent at all.  He's very real and very involved with the world and with people.

Why does God care for people so much? It's the same reason a mother loves her child.  It's hers, it's something she made, it's something she can bring up and teach and put a part of herself in.  This is why it's very difficult for Christians to believe in evolution.  Why does God have any reason to treat humans differently from any other creation unless he designed them the way they are now? A painter takes pride in his painting; he does not take pride in a canvas that he spilled paint on.

There's one more thing that I want to touch on that is closely related to what God is: morality.  God has a plan for the universe; he wants certain things to happen in certain ways.  Because of this, "good" can be defined as anything that corresponds to God's will.  "Evil" is anything that goes against God's nature.  In fact, evil is often a twisting of good; it's a way of obtaining the pleasures of being good without obeying the constraints.  Sex is not evil, but lust and adultery are.  Money is not evil, but greed is.  Satisfaction and hard work are not evil, but pride is.  Laughter is not evil, but dirty and profane humor is.

So, to sum things up, God is visible in everything, but he is not everything.  God transcends reality, but he's also deeply intertwined with it.  God defines morality, and the goal of every Christian is to become less like humans and more like God.

[The Philanthropist]

Love is god.

Bam, a whole shitload of semi abstract BS all in one sentence.

Love creates, love forgives, love is everywhere (or should be).

[Mangled*]

Also, if you don't believe in God but you imagine that one does exist what would it nature would it have to be like?

Please fix this question so that it makes sense.

The Bible (my source for anything pertaining to God) only mentions God ever begetting one thing: Jesus.  The Son requires the Father to exist, yet the two are still the same thing.*

To a large extent, the Christian God is very transcendent; obviously, we'll never be able to completely understand him, and any true god would have to be significantly removed from the universe - unhindered by the limitations of space or time. **

God come into us to do what he wants. ***

Why does God have any reason to treat humans differently from any other creation unless he designed them the way they are now? A painter takes pride in his painting; he does not take pride in a canvas that he spilled paint on. ****

There's one more thing that I want to touch on that is closely related to what God is: morality. *****

So, to sum things up, God is visible in everything, but he is not everything.  God transcends reality, but he's also deeply intertwined with it.  God defines morality ******

* I thought you didn't believe in Jesus. Or am I mistaken?

** Hindered by the limitations of space & time? But he created the universe, surely nothing can hinder him. Hindered by logic I can understand.

*** I wouldn't recommend this.

**** Are you saying that humans are perfect? Humans are the furthest living being from being perfect. When was the last time you saw an evil animal? (that was not human, since we're animals too)

***** God has nothing to do with morality. Morality is a product of society, thought and education. Regardless of what you believe you can be a good or bad person, religious teachings on morality are no different from common etiquette in society of the time, in fact a lot of the moral codes in scripture are now very outdated. Where is thou shalt not enslave Africans?

****** God is not visible in anything. When I look at the natural world I see nature and I see order and I see beauty and I see perfection and there's a word for it. Evolution.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Also, if you don't believe in God but you imagine that one does exist what would it nature would it have to be like?

Please fix this question so that it makes sense.

If a god did exist, what would it be like? What would distinguish it from anything else?



* You're mistaken; I believe in Biblical Christianity, and Jesus is a pretty big part of that.  In fact, without Jesus there is no Christianity.

** UNhindered.  Read it again.

*** Why not? He's the supreme creator of the universe; he knows what's best for everyone and everything.  Why would you want to go against that?

**** I'm not saying that at all.  But humans can have the desire to be perfect, to do what's best.  Animals just exist, acting on instinct.

***** "Though shalt not enslave Africans" falls under the much more general "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  But you've brought up a concept that's worth looking at: human rights.  Why do humans have rights? Why is slavery wrong? Why is it okay to eat animals but not humans? At some level, everyone believes that humans have rights, not because of anything they've done, but simply because they're human.

Now, you can argue that people believe that because it's good "for society."  Why shouldn't you be selfish? Because it's good for society.  Why shouldn't you steal? Because it's good for society.  Why is it so important that society stays strong and healthy? Because it's good for the people in that society.  Why should you care about people other than yourself? Logically, there's no reason to, unless that care benefits you in some way.  And yet, we refer to the logical conclusion as "exploitation" and consider it wrong.

So where does this get us? "Don't be selfish." "Why not?" "Because it's bad for society." "So?" "Hurting society hurts you." "So I'm doing this for myself? Isn't that just being selfish?" "Whatever, being selfish is just wrong, and you should care about other people."  You'll find that a lot of morality is like that.  It's completely illogical, and yet we still think people should act like that.  There's no reason to be honest.  There's no reason to be courageous.  There's no reason to be altruistic.  And yet, almost everyone considers those things honorable and noble.  Society has nothing to do with it.

You've fallen into a common trap: believing that society determines morality, rather than understanding that morality is just manifested in society.  Disagreements are very often superficial, while the underlying morality remains the same.  Consider abortion.  Pro-life people think it's wrong because it's negatively impacting a human: the baby.  Pro-choice people think it's acceptable because the alternative negatively impacts a human: the mother.  Both sides still are acting in the interest of human rights, and both sides still have some preconception that there is a right and wrong way to treat humans.  The only difference is in the definition of "human."

****** Perhaps, but order and beauty and perfection are all aspects of God, too (at least any god someone would want to worship).

[Brock]

I don't believe in God nor do I believe in the load of BS known as "the big bang theory".

Seriously: The only reason people believe in god and make up dumb theories like that is a method of explaining the unknown.  Like how the Myans thought the rain was casued by Chaac, the rain god.  We now know of the Hydrologic cycle.

Nobody truly knows how the universe started.  Seriously.  In likelyhood, we never will.

Don't feed me a bunch of garbage about how god did this and god did that.  Screw that.  Just because it's in a really old book doesn't make it true.

And the big bang theory?  So you're saying that there was nothing, no vaccum of space, no planets, no stars, no nothing, and for no reason or inclination at all, this "nothing" explodes with enough force to create everything!?  Where does the material come from to make all this stuff?  If it is possible, our science cannot explain it properly.

So really, to me, all these creation ideas are BS: They're either an irrational way of dealing with the fear of death, or people attempting to rationalize thinga they don't understand.

So where do I stand?  Nowhere.  Because that's truly where we stand.  We don't know what happened trillions and billions and googleplex years ago, because we weren't around.  We will never know for sure, and to be honest, I'm ok with that.

[iDante]

Brock you obviously don't know anything about the big bang theory. Please read this before saying anything more.
-------
Being selfish IS bad for society. So is being dishonest, cowardly, etc.

[LtKillroy]

I believe in God, and believe he is omnipotent omnicient deal. But honestly, I am of the opinion he is too complex to be understood completely. It's kind of hard to explain what I believe because I don't think people should follow blindly what pastors/preachers or whatever say and only believe what I have read myself, which sadly is not that much.

[PANZERCATWAGON]

mangled. are you 12? you have a mentality close to that of my little sister

youre just arguing for the sake of arguing. and it also looks like youre a high school production line athiest. grow up, for your own sake. believe what you believe out of what you see, not whatever someone convinces you is right. ltkillroy has the right idea and so does brock, almost.

[Mangled*]

* You're mistaken; I believe in Biblical Christianity, and Jesus is a pretty big part of that.  In fact, without Jesus there is no Christianity.

My mistake, I get confused between you and Leetfidle - he doesn't believe in Jesus because he's a door basher.

** UNhindered.  Read it again.

You said:

any true god would have to be significantly removed from the universe - unhindered by the limitations of space or time.

This implies that God would be hindered by space and time if he was not "significantly removed" from the universe. Which is essentially what I said. Try to read more carefully.

*** Why not? He's the supreme creator of the universe; he knows what's best for everyone and everything.  Why would you want to go against that?

I just don't trust mythical beings.

**** I'm not saying that at all.  But humans can have the desire to be perfect, to do what's best.  Animals just exist, acting on instinct.

I can relate to that but I don't think we have the full perspective to make that judgement.

any true god would have to be significantly removed from the universe - unhindered by the limitations of space or time. 

***** "Though shalt not enslave Africans" falls under the much more general "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."  But you've brought up a concept that's worth looking at: human rights.  Why do humans have rights? Why is slavery wrong? Why is it okay to eat animals but not humans? At some level, everyone believes that humans have rights, not because of anything they've done, but simply because they're human.

Let's not try to steer the point away from where it was going. The african slave trade was almost entirely down to the British empire who were, how can I say, severely Christian. The American plantation owners were also Christian. Where are these morals coming from?

You've fallen into a common trap: believing that society determines morality, rather than understanding that morality is just manifested in society.

There's no trap here. Society's development affects morality and our understanding of it, and in return morality shapes society further. It's a progressive cycle that depends on education and communication between cultures and people of differing views. We've come a long way and religion has neither progressed nor hindered it.

****** Perhaps, but order and beauty and perfection are all aspects of God, too (at least any god someone would want to worship).

Beauty and perfection are outweighed by pain and suffering and always have. The bruality of nature is omnipresent in the wild world. Natural selection, survival of the fittest.

I need no magic man to fill in my unanswered questions.

I don't believe in God nor do I believe in the load of BS known as "the big bang theory".

Seriously: The only reason people believe in god and make up dumb theories like that is a method of explaining the unknown.

I stopped reading here because that is the most stupid thing I have read in quite a few weeks. Go read a Stephen Hawking book.

mangled. are you 12? you have a mentality close to that of my little sister

Your sister is very intelligent, probably more so than you and you're just jealous!

[ds dude]

I do believe in god. I think that when you die, you come out of your body instantaneously. You can see everything, do anything you want, but no one will see you.

[tehsnipah]

I'm sort of in the middle. I've always thought that we were the puppet of his, so he never gets bored because of our lust, gluttony, envy, pride, wraith, sloth, and greed.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

This implies that God would be hindered by space and time if he was not "significantly removed" from the universe. Which is essentially what I said. Try to read more carefully.

Right.  The statement following the hyphen was just a further explanation of the "significantly removed" part.

**** I'm not saying that at all.  But humans can have the desire to be perfect, to do what's best.  Animals just exist, acting on instinct.

I can relate to that but I don't think we have the full perspective to make that judgment.

Alright, I'll amend that.  Humans are capable of understanding that they are doing wrong, and as a result, they're capable of wanting to change that.  Animals don't have that capacity; they kill and steal because that's just what they do.

Let's not try to steer the point away from where it was going. The african slave trade was almost entirely down to the British empire who were, how can I say, severely Christian. The American plantation owners were also Christian. Where are these morals coming from?

People can be Christian without obeying their innate morals.  I know; I do it all the time.  Every day, I do things that I know are wrong.  That doesn't make me any less Christian, and it doesn't mean that I don't have morals.  It simply means that I choose to ignore the morals at that time.  Why should anyone else be any different? Those people owned slaves because it made their lives easier.  People wouldn't act against their morals if it didn't benefit them, after all.

[Brock]

I stopped reading here because that is the most stupid thing I have read in quite a few weeks. Go read a Stephen Hawking book.

How would reading a horror novel help me understand the creation of the universe, Stephan Hawking isn't a god.

Brock you obviously don't know anything about the big bang theory. Please read this before saying anything more.

tl;dr, but from the first handful or paragraphs they basically think that there was a very small (comparatively speaking) and "primordial hot and dense initial condition", which expands into a whack of stuff we call the universe.

Ok...  That's a even crappier than I thought.  Who created the hot and dense stuff?  Where did that come from?  How did this come to be?  That had to come from somewhere too.  And that's what I mean.  WE DON'T KNOW.

But do continue to explain if you must...  Although my doubts have only been deepened.   

[The Geologist]

mangled. are you 12? you have a mentality close to that of my little sister

youre just arguing for the sake of arguing. and it also looks like youre a high school production line athiest. grow up, for your own sake. believe what you believe out of what you see, not whatever someone convinces you is right. ltkillroy has the right idea and so does brock, almost.

Ha!  Spot on, old man.  Spot on.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

I stopped reading here because that is the most stupid thing I have read in quite a few weeks. Go read a Stephen Hawking book.

How would reading a horror novel help me understand the creation of the universe, Stephan Hawking isn't a god.

Stephen Hawking != Stephen King

[The Philanthropist]

I can't maneuver!

Stay on Target.

We're too close!

Stay on Target!

*KABOOM*

trolled, derailed, and essentially destroyed! Guys answer the damned question, we have 3 answers out of 15 posts.

I'm sort of in the middle. I've always thought that we were the puppet of his, so he never gets bored because of our lust, gluttony, envy, pride, wraith, sloth, and greed.

I do believe in god. I think that when you die, you come out of your body instantaneously. You can see everything, do anything you want, but no one will see you.

Guys, that doesn't really answer the question. You both essentially said "I believe in a God", but didn't really explain what that god is.

The rest of you are just picking apart each other. You can't attack a position without offering your own :\

Mysticism is attempting to be one with your god, through a deeper understanding of what he/she via a conscious experience.

[Brock]

I stopped reading here because that is the most stupid thing I have read in quite a few weeks. Go read a Stephen Hawking book.

How would reading a horror novel help me understand the creation of the universe, Stephan Hawking isn't a god.

Stephen Hawking != Stephen King

MAJOR LUL

[mar77a]

nice post LtKillroy