Illegal?

[killzonea59]

So the only reason you don't steal regular goods is because you it's high risk? jesus christ

That, and because regular goods have a depletable supply.  Let's say I want a big screen TV.  If I steal it, the store no longer has it and can no longer make money off of it.  I don't have enough money to buy the TV, so they'll never make a sale to me, either.  However, if I could make a duplicate of the TV while leaving the original untouched, I have something I would never have gotten otherwise, and the store is still free to sell the TV they have.  Everyone wins.

You have a point, its not like the whole world is out there doing it. Plus, were still teens, we don't make enough money to go out and buy what we want. Its not our fault we don't have money so we spend our time on the internet trying to find things to keep ourselves busy. Plus, i'm pretty sure once i get a good paying job, i won't have to go back to doing any of this because i wouldn't need to, I'd have money to pay for it.

[FliesLikeABrick]

The thing is that with software, music, movies etc - they're all made with the creator being fully aware of the low costs of distributing the finished product.  Their pricing for the final product is based on the fact that they put their time and valued creativity into designing and producing the song/video/movie/software.  Just because it can be copied for free doesn't mean that the product has no value.

The low income of younger people is, I think, one of the strongest points of open-source software to non-technical people who don't have interest in many of the other aspects of OSS

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Plus, i'm pretty sure once i get a good paying job, i won't have to go back to doing any of this because i wouldn't need to, I'd have money to pay for it.

You say that, but I promise you it's not going to work that way.  I started working my full-time job back in June, and it has a VERY competitive salary.  You know what I spend money on? Food.  Utilities.  Insurance.  Loans.  Rent.  401k.  It's really quite remarkable to me how little surplus I have given how much I make.  Also, once you get used to getting something for free, you're not going to want to go back to paying for it.

The thing is that with software, music, movies etc - they're all made with the creator being fully aware of the low costs of distributing the finished product.  Their pricing for the final product is based on the fact that they put their time and valued creativity into designing and producing the song/video/movie/software.  Just because it can be copied for free doesn't mean that the product has no value.

I don't believe I ever said the product has no value.  But if I can't afford that value, or rather, if it's not worth it to me to pay that value, the developer isn't going to get a sale from me anyway.  I'm not hurting his profits by downloading something I wouldn't have bought.  It's like winning a cruise.  Would you go on a cruise if you had to spend money on it? Probably not.  Are you still going on the free cruise despite that? Heck yes.

It's worth noting that I DO see the value in many things.  I prefer physical books to e-books, for example, and I'll buy albums from bands I like.  But something like Photoshop CS5? I'm not hurting anyone at all by pirating it.  And the convenience of HD movies on my hard drive FAR outweighs any guilt I may have from not owning the physical media.  Besides, it's not like I watch movies all day every day.  If I watch a particular movie on my computer once every couple of months, how is that any different from checking it out from the library for free?

[10th_account]

I usually just go for convenience, which means that I'll buy everything except for movies and expensive software. I would pirate some games as well if it wasn't such a hassle and risk of bricking a console, because in my country there are no decent rental businesses for games and movies.

[Veritas]

So the only reason you don't steal regular goods is because you it's high risk? jesus christ

That, and because regular goods have a depletable supply.  Let's say I want a big screen TV.  If I steal it, the store no longer has it and can no longer make money off of it.  I don't have enough money to buy the TV, so they'll never make a sale to me, either.  However, if I could make a duplicate of the TV while leaving the original untouched, I have something I would never have gotten otherwise, and the store is still free to sell the TV they have.  Everyone wins.

No, only you win. If you don't have enough money to buy the TV, you either save up for it or buy a TV that's in your price range, thus putting money into the store/manufacturer/economy. And if you can make a duplicate of the TV, a significant number of other people would duplicate the TV instead of buying it, further hurting the people who make and sell it.

The idea that copying something is in a different league than stealing it is completely ridiculous.

You have a point, its not like the whole world is out there doing it.

Hahahahaha

Plus, were still teens, we don't make enough money to go out and buy what we want. Its not our fault we don't have money so we spend our time on the internet trying to find things to keep ourselves busy. Plus, i'm pretty sure once i get a good paying job, i won't have to go back to doing any of this because i wouldn't need to, I'd have money to pay for it.

There's plenty of games/music/etc on the internet that you can get for free or really cheap, legitimately. Why don't you buy those things instead of stealing?

I don't believe I ever said the product has no value.  But if I can't afford that value, or rather, if it's not worth it to me to pay that value, the developer isn't going to get a sale from me anyway.

I don't understand why, at this point, you resort to piracy instead of just not buying it. If it fills a need, invest in a cheaper alternative (Paint.NET, GIMP for your Photoshop example). Why try and convince yourself that what you're doing isn't illegal or immoral?

[10th_account]

I don't believe I ever said the product has no value.  But if I can't afford that value, or rather, if it's not worth it to me to pay that value, the developer isn't going to get a sale from me anyway.

I don't understand why, at this point, you resort to piracy instead of just not buying it. If it fills a need, invent in a cheaper alternative (Paint.NET, GIMP for your Photoshop example). Why try and convince yourself that what you're doing isn't illegal or immoral?

I agree. But I'd make an exception to this and justify it morally if you're a simple student in the need of expensive software.

I'm fairly certain that Adobe unofficially would prefer students pirating Photoshop rather than learning the free alternatives. Then when they grow into talented individuals they'll buy Photoshop when they need to use it for commercial purposes, because that's the tool they're most comfortable with.

For the same reason Microsoft would unofficially rather want you cruising around and loving your pirated Win7 Ultimate and Office 2010 Professional Plus than switching to Ubuntu and OpenOffice.

[FliesLikeABrick]

The thing is that with software, music, movies etc - they're all made with the creator being fully aware of the low costs of distributing the finished product.  Their pricing for the final product is based on the fact that they put their time and valued creativity into designing and producing the song/video/movie/software.  Just because it can be copied for free doesn't mean that the product has no value.

I don't believe I ever said the product has no value.  But if I can't afford that value, or rather, if it's not worth it to me to pay that value, the developer isn't going to get a sale from me anyway.

But that isn't what you said.  you said (paraphrasing) "If I can get something for free, I'm not going to pay for it."   You may still think it has value, but with logic like what you said in that previous post, you're ignoring the value if you can get it for free (regardless of whether or not you can afford it, you hadn't addressed that).

I'm not hurting his profits by downloading something I wouldn't have bought.  It's like winning a cruise.  Would you go on a cruise if you had to spend money on it? Probably not.  Are you still going on the free cruise despite that? Heck yes.

The difference is that when you win a free cruise, you're being given it not taking it.  That doesn't relate to the discussion at hand.

[killzonea59]

Plus, i'm pretty sure once i get a good paying job, i won't have to go back to doing any of this because i wouldn't need to, I'd have money to pay for it.

You say that, but I promise you it's not going to work that way.  I started working my full-time job back in June, and it has a VERY competitive salary.  You know what I spend money on? Food.  Utilities.  Insurance.  Loans.  Rent.  401k.  It's really quite remarkable to me how little surplus I have given how much I make.  Also, once you get used to getting something for free, you're not going to want to go back to paying for it.

Well, you're right. But I'm sure it'll be easier than what your seeing it as. I'm not a bad kid, downloading a few movies online is probably the most illegal thing I've done my entire life, i don't do crimes and I've never had a felony. I'm pretty sure I'd have self control against not downloading stuff when i get the money. Plus if i get a job, I'll be too busy to download stuff, it'll be school, work, then come home and get as much sleep as i can. I don't even have a cell phone to use haha.

[darDar]

Ignore the email address.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

But that isn't what you said.  you said (paraphrasing) "If I can get something for free, I'm not going to pay for it."   You may still think it has value, but with logic like what you said in that previous post, you're ignoring the value if you can get it for free (regardless of whether or not you can afford it, you hadn't addressed that).

So OSS has no value just because we can get it for free?  Of course not.  If Paint.NET lets me do something faster or better than MS Paint, it's more valuable to me.  If a DVD rip is more convenient to me than the DVD itself, it's more valuable to me.  The cost of something, whether it's the suggested retail price or the amount actually spent, is completely irrelevant to its value. 

The difference is that when you win a free cruise, you're being given it not taking it.  That doesn't relate to the discussion at hand.

It seems like little more than an issue of semantics to me.  There's no practical difference between giving and taking except, in this case, legality.  However, we're arguing the ethics of piracy, not the legality.  I already know it's illegal, and if legality was the only thing that mattered, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[jrgp]

So OSS has no value just because we can get it for free?  Of course not.  If Paint.NET lets me do something faster or better than MS Paint, it's more valuable to me.

Sorry, but I just can't resist correcting you here. Paint.NET is not OSS (Open Source Software); it's proprietary freeware.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Eh.  The point remains.

[Smegma]

The creative people have already been paid by the time you can download it. (Depending on the industry)