What needs to be done.

[13th_account]

Then I would like to point something very important out: Certain fireintervals will cause your bullets to naturally spread (I should note that it starts happening at fireinterval 8 and below, with 8 being extremely bugged when you crouch). I consider this, along with the odd inaccuracy when you initially go crouch/prone, an old bug related to animations.

The most obvious in-game example of what I've described above can be seen in the Steyr Aug's fireinterval 7. Your first shot always goes straight, but the 2nd shot onwards always angles slightly upwards. A not so obvious example would be MP5's fireinterval 6: your shots always alternate up and down.

If you wish to add this BulletSpread function, then the above should be addressed as well.

I've looked into this, and couldn't figure out how to solve it without disabling the recoil animation altogether, which is unpreferable. The problematic recoil animation is "odrzut2.poa". If someone were to help us solve it by making all bullets shoot straight for all FireInterval values we would be most grateful. =)

A .poa file editor can be found here:
http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=76.msg473843#msg473843

[ginn]

Then I would like to point something very important out: Certain fireintervals will cause your bullets to naturally spread (I should note that it starts happening at fireinterval 8 and below, with 8 being extremely bugged when you crouch). I consider this, along with the odd inaccuracy when you initially go crouch/prone, an old bug related to animations.

The most obvious in-game example of what I've described above can be seen in the Steyr Aug's fireinterval 7. Your first shot always goes straight, but the 2nd shot onwards always angles slightly upwards. A not so obvious example would be MP5's fireinterval 6: your shots always alternate up and down.

If you wish to add this BulletSpread function, then the above should be addressed as well.

I've looked into this, and couldn't figure out how to solve it without disabling the recoil animation altogether, which is unpreferable. The problematic recoil animation is "odrzut2.poa". If someone were to help us solve it by making all bullets shoot straight for all FireInterval values we would be most grateful. =)

A .poa file editor can be found here:
http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=76.msg473843#msg473843

if you're using the "english" language option, it's translated to "Jet 2".
I'll see if I can make it work...

[STM1993]

Then I would like to point something very important out: Certain fireintervals will cause your bullets to naturally spread (I should note that it starts happening at fireinterval 8 and below, with 8 being extremely bugged when you crouch). I consider this, along with the odd inaccuracy when you initially go crouch/prone, an old bug related to animations.

The most obvious in-game example of what I've described above can be seen in the Steyr Aug's fireinterval 7. Your first shot always goes straight, but the 2nd shot onwards always angles slightly upwards. A not so obvious example would be MP5's fireinterval 6: your shots always alternate up and down.

If you wish to add this BulletSpread function, then the above should be addressed as well.

I've looked into this, and couldn't figure out how to solve it without disabling the recoil animation altogether, which is unpreferable. The problematic recoil animation is "odrzut2.poa". If someone were to help us solve it by making all bullets shoot straight for all FireInterval values we would be most grateful. =)

A .poa file editor can be found here:
http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=76.msg473843#msg473843

Can't promise anything, I'll see what I can do when I'm free.

Gave it a bit of experimentation. I tried leaving the hands (as in the "Hand Special" points) at the exact same location through all the frames and also tried following the exact same position as the standing position's, angle didn't change at all. However if I were to just replace the animation with "stoi" (standing), it works perfectly until you crouch, because the first bullet you fire is from the crouch animation while subsequent bullets fired are taken from the shoot animation.

So it seems like the whole arm is involved and that the shooting animation must coincide with the previous animation. Minigun has its own animation it seems, looks like the crouch animation's. And from what I figure, the shooting animation doesn't reset on firing the 2nd shot (ie the previous shot's animation still plays through, there is no override), because if it did then the MP5 shouldn't be alternating but follow the Aug's pattern of having only the 1st shot accurate.

EDIT:
Hmm, cutting short the animation seems to work, but not for all fireintervals.

[ginn]

ok, so now I have an animation with no inaccuracy... however, there's still inaccuracy applied when walking etc. I think it might actually be easier to just recode from where the bullets go. instead of editing several animations...

The only thing that matters is the left and right hands position.

[Clawbug]

Yes, that is what I meant. I believe making rugers fireinterval higher and balance it's damage very carefully could fix it - forcing players to not go straight up vs autos.
Otherwise changing the formula to (Constant+playerspeed)*bulletdamage/1000, where constant is a value similar to the bullets initial speed.

There's the problem that autos should be beaten by semi-autos in general. The holy trinity works like autos > 1shot > semi-autos > autos.

[ginn]

There's nothing an auto user can do to avoid getting killed by somebody using a semi out. where as somebody using a semi auto can shoot one shot, hide behind polygon and then shoot again. This doesn't work the other way around.
Just like you can't just rush up fron with a barrett, because you need to hide behind colliders and polygons to avoid getting binked.

Unless you give ruger quite a bit of bink, it'll stay broken.

[Zero Static]

Are you honestly trying to say ruger is overpowered? It has like the lowest usage of any gun apart from deagles, and is incredibly hard to use in competitive matches.

[Clawbug]

Are you honestly trying to say ruger is overpowered? It has like the lowest usage of any gun apart from deagles, and is incredibly hard to use in competitive matches.

That is because it is a semi-auto. In competitive matches reliability > maximum potential. In publics, gathers and fcws, maximum potential > reliability because it's not end of the game if you fuck up your shots once or twice, although the returns are still substantial if you manage to score those two hit kills. This can be clearly seen in the statistics from Gather and SCTFL provided by skoskav aka 13th_account in the thread concerning AUG, LAW and Grenades.

There's nothing that can be done to address the issue of reliability > maximum potential in important games, because such games aren't something you take risks in. You need to be able to trust first and foremost yourself and then your teammates. If someone fucks up, it can be the end of it. Nobody wants to be the one to fuck up.

On the other hand, Ruger really is one of the most powerful weapons in the game by it's practical "time to kill"(f.e. first two shots only have some 0.66s of delay) time(even if it misses a shot or two). That is, Ruger kills far faster than many other weapons on average, especially within it's own category when compared against Deagles. The flexibility of the weapon(especially if you can control your own expousure to the enemy bullets by staying behind a corner most of the time and only exposing yourself when firing, that is at best twice per kill), the relative ease of aiming due to fast and thus straight flying bullets(compare to e.g Spas or Deagles, both of which are it's direct competitors by being semi-autos) make it a very, very unbalanced weapon in my eyes.

The only way to counter a defensive Ruger player in 1v1 situation in almost any map is to use Barrett(OR Ruger, and then play defensively and hope that it works out) and even then, if the Ruger player plays defensively enough by having control over his own exposure to the enemy(keeps a corner between himself and the enemy) he can be near impossible to hit due to the delay of Barret - if Ruger player keeps his exposure low (less than the opponent reaction time + delay in barrett + barrett bullet's flight time) - which is well enough to fire a shot and cover. So, what can you do against a Ruger player who only exposes himself to fire a single shot at a time?

The problem is not only the fact that Ruger can kill you faster than any other weapon(excluding Spas, if from close range so that it kills with less than three hits - which doesn't happen against a good Ruger player who keeps distance anyway) potentially can even if they hit all their bullets from zero distance. The fundamental problem with Ruger is the nature of it. That it is very good weapon for defensive playing by strictly controlling exposure to enemy because 1) Fast bullets and thus 2) straight bullets which essentially make it easier to use than any other weapon - because they have slower bullets which requires more prediction of enemy movement in form of shooting towards the enemy position at the time of bullet impact and countering the bullet arc

The claim that Ruger wouldn't be overpowered is laughable - if it wasn't considered overpowered(by it's maximum potential which is devastating and impossible to counter as mentioned before) then a huge amount of players wouldn't bother trying to practice becoming better with it. Otherwise Ruger wouldn't be the most used weapon in #soldat.gather during the past two weeks(from a few days ago).

I honestly find it very hard to understand the claim that Ruger isn't overpowered especially against Deagles - which just has bigger magazine as it's only benefit over Ruger.

[Zero Static]

Your argument seems somewhat strange, of course ruger is overpowered if the player is not being shot at and can hide behind polygons constantly. I could make the same argument about spas - It is the best gun in the game because it kills the fastest and most accurately when 2 players are right next to each other, but it's not really important in terms of balance. Weapon balance should take into account every possible situation, and Autos are still the most useful in the most situations.

"I honestly find it very hard to understand the claim that Ruger isn't overpowered especially against Deagles - which just has bigger magazine as it's only benefit over Ruger."

Once again, I could take another gun and compare it to Deagles and get the same conclusion, you can't just pull random scenarios out and claim a gun is overpowered because it's good in that scenario.

I don't think it's a good idea to balance guns based on their "maximum potential". Rather some function of maximum potential, reliability and map control would be a good indicator of overall weapon "power".

[ginn]

The guns balance hasn't been tackled in the right way.

[Clawbug]

Your argument seems somewhat strange, of course ruger is overpowered if the player is not being shot at and can hide behind polygons constantly. I could make the same argument about spas - It is the best gun in the game because it kills the fastest and most accurately when 2 players are right next to each other, but it's not really important in terms of balance. Weapon balance should take into account every possible situation, and Autos are still the most useful in the most situations.

"I honestly find it very hard to understand the claim that Ruger isn't overpowered especially against Deagles - which just has bigger magazine as it's only benefit over Ruger."

Once again, I could take another gun and compare it to Deagles and get the same conclusion, you can't just pull random scenarios out and claim a gun is overpowered because it's good in that scenario.

I don't think it's a good idea to balance guns based on their "maximum potential". Rather some function of maximum potential, reliability and map control would be a good indicator of overall weapon "power".

It wasn't the only argument, it was only a part of it, explaining why the matter is not only about the WM, but rather also about the fundamental aspect of how the weapon works as and how it is being used which makes it very hard to balance. On the other hand, 2 shot kiling Ruger is a real beast because of high maximum potential and lowering the maximum potential by increasing the fireinterval makes it even more riskier because a missed shot is much more critical. On the other hand, 3 shot killing ruger gets very limited by it's 4 bullet magazine.

Of course weapon maximum potential should be taken into account, that's what ultimately dictates what weapon people use. In general, people pick the weapon they believe they kill the fastest with. Although aiming for maximum potential can be risky, e.g. the difference between maximum potential and sustained performance is far greater with weapons which shoot less often, are harder to hit with etc. The differece between sustained performance and maximum potential is quite low for autos, while it's higher for semi-autos and especially 1shot weapons - this is why usage patterns differ among gather and "serious" games even thoug most of the playerbase remains the same.

I'm still wondering that if Ruger isn't considered to be overpowered, why is it used so much in gathers where people mainly practice their skills? What are the negative sides of Ruger apart from small magazine?

[Adam]

Your argument seems somewhat strange, of course ruger is overpowered if the player is not being shot at and can hide behind polygons constantly. I could make the same argument about spas - It is the best gun in the game because it kills the fastest and most accurately when 2 players are right next to each other, but it's not really important in terms of balance. Weapon balance should take into account every possible situation, and Autos are still the most useful in the most situations.

"I honestly find it very hard to understand the claim that Ruger isn't overpowered especially against Deagles - which just has bigger magazine as it's only benefit over Ruger."

Once again, I could take another gun and compare it to Deagles and get the same conclusion, you can't just pull random scenarios out and claim a gun is overpowered because it's good in that scenario.

I don't think it's a good idea to balance guns based on their "maximum potential". Rather some function of maximum potential, reliability and map control would be a good indicator of overall weapon "power".

It wasn't the only argument, it was only a part of it, explaining why the matter is not only about the WM, but rather also about the fundamental aspect of how the weapon works as and how it is being used which makes it very hard to balance. On the other hand, 2 shot kiling Ruger is a real beast because of high maximum potential and lowering the maximum potential by increasing the fireinterval makes it even more riskier because a missed shot is much more critical. On the other hand, 3 shot killing ruger gets very limited by it's 4 bullet magazine.

Of course weapon maximum potential should be taken into account, that's what ultimately dictates what weapon people use. In general, people pick the weapon they believe they kill the fastest with. Although aiming for maximum potential can be risky, e.g. the difference between maximum potential and sustained performance is far greater with weapons which shoot less often, are harder to hit with etc. The differece between sustained performance and maximum potential is quite low for autos, while it's higher for semi-autos and especially 1shot weapons - this is why usage patterns differ among gather and "serious" games even thoug most of the playerbase remains the same.

I'm still wondering that if Ruger isn't considered to be overpowered, why is it used so much in gathers where people mainly practice their skills? What are the negative sides of Ruger apart from small magazine?

negative side of ruger: takes almost always(like always) 3 shots to kill even if it's head and body
Small magazine makes it difficult to even get a double without nade when it takes 3-4 shots to kill
maybe it's the netcode but i think the ruger is really underpowered i haven't seen people even using ruger in gathers/cws cause of its difficulty the only way you can really own with ruger is if you always hover with it and hope no one eats -bad english ftw

[Dusty]

maybe it's the netcode

maybe it's you

I totally second what Clawbug said about the ruger's 1vs1 potential. I'm using it pretty much all the time and the only weapon I can think of that might be able to beat it is the barrett. Also the OP minimi of the previous versions used to be a tough opponent but not anymore.

[Adam]

maybe it's the netcode

maybe it's you

I totally second what Clawbug said about the ruger's 1vs1 potential. I'm using it pretty much all the time and the only weapon I can think of that might be able to beat it is the barrett. Also the OP minimi of the previous versions used to be a tough opponent but not anymore.

played it in a gather? or how about a clanwar where it actually counts you can't kill anyone with 2 shots cause of the eats unless you get two solid headshots and if you do i applaud you

[Clawbug]

negative side of ruger: takes almost always(like always) 3 shots to kill even if it's head and body
Small magazine makes it difficult to even get a double without nade when it takes 3-4 shots to kill
maybe it's the netcode but i think the ruger is really underpowered i haven't seen people even using ruger in gathers/cws cause of its difficulty the only way you can really own with ruger is if you always hover with it and hope no one eats -bad english ftw

So let's see:

Last 14 days of #soldat.gather (1.6.3)

Code: [Select]

Ruger 77      23200  17%
Steyr AUG     21294  16%
Spas-12       20898  16%
HK MP5        16865  13%
Ak-74         12144   9%
M79           11410   9%
Barrett M82A1 10717   8%
Desert Eagles  8090   6%
FN Minimi      7824   6%
XM214 Minigun   225   0%

Combat Knife 13404  62%
LAW           6597  31%
USSOCOM       1131   5%
Chainsaw       348   2%

Grenade 36083  19% (of total)
Hands    2409   1%


Then, you sir dare to question Dusty's gather or clanwar experience?(Who btw has been active in the scene since 2006) Honestly now.

[Dusty]

Yeah I've been doing just fine with it in the competitive games too.

[Adam]

negative side of ruger: takes almost always(like always) 3 shots to kill even if it's head and body
Small magazine makes it difficult to even get a double without nade when it takes 3-4 shots to kill
maybe it's the netcode but i think the ruger is really underpowered i haven't seen people even using ruger in gathers/cws cause of its difficulty the only way you can really own with ruger is if you always hover with it and hope no one eats -bad english ftw

So let's see:

Last 14 days of #soldat.gather (1.6.3)

Code: [Select]

Ruger 77      23200  17%
Steyr AUG     21294  16%
Spas-12       20898  16%
HK MP5        16865  13%
Ak-74         12144   9%
M79           11410   9%
Barrett M82A1 10717   8%
Desert Eagles  8090   6%
FN Minimi      7824   6%
XM214 Minigun   225   0%

Combat Knife 13404  62%
LAW           6597  31%
USSOCOM       1131   5%
Chainsaw       348   2%

Grenade 36083  19% (of total)
Hands    2409   1%


Then, you sir dare to question Dusty's gather or clanwar experience?(Who btw has been active in the scene since 2006) Honestly now.

yea now you should check which one of them actually did good in gathers

[Clawbug]

yea now you should check which one of them actually did good in gathers

How is that relevant to anything? Ruger users made most kills during the past 14 days(a few days ago), so isn't that alone an indcator? Your original claim was that you haven't seen people using Ruger, I wonder how that's even possible if you are active gather player. That put aside, isn't the fact that Ruger is the most used weapon in gathers an indicator that people acknowledge it's unmatched maximum potential and want to learn to use it? In other words, if Ruger wasn't considered a serious threat as in being a very powerful weapon, why would people bother trying to learn to use it?