The beginning

[Svirin Kerath]

Buh?
The universe is of finite size.

That's sort of what I'm saying. We can see the "end" of the universe, but beyond that is still empty space, which is infinite, within our universe.

If God made imperfect beings such as ourself, I see no reason why he wouldn't place them in an imperfect universe to match.

But the universe doesn't have to make moral choices, and a lot of people argue that we become perfect in heaven, and so have the potential for it, if we make the right choices.

[Veritas]

Buh?
The universe is of finite size.

That's sort of what I'm saying. We can see the "end" of the universe, but beyond that is still empty space, which is infinite, within our universe.

What
What did you just even say
The universe has bounds
It is finite
A finite thing with bounds cannot contain an infinite amount of empty space outside of itself what are you even saying im so confused

If God made imperfect beings such as ourself, I see no reason why he wouldn't place them in an imperfect universe to match.

But the universe doesn't have to make moral choices, and a lot of people argue that we become perfect in heaven, and so have the potential for it, if we make the right choices.

Alright so the universe doesn't have to make moral choices because it is not a person
That does not mean it can't be made imperfect
You know, at all

By the by Christianity says we are born with original sin, meaning we can't exactly be a perfect person if we are born flawed
This is of course ignoring the fact that the notion that we can become perfect on Earth because we are somehow perfect in Heaven is pretty damn stupid in the first place

[Fluffy]

The universe has bounds
It is finite

In Smegma's words, how do you know that something is finite if you haven't seen the end of it?

[KorrupT MerC]

Yeah, im with the above confusee's. Are we saying that the universe is infinite or finite? I mean infinity is a hard concept to comprehend but a finite universe would be an even worse concept. If its finite, then we'd be living in a closed circle/box/odd-polygon with something else that surrounds that, and if thats true, would the empty space just contain stars? nothing?

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

The universe has bounds
It is finite

In Smegma's words, how do you know that something is finite if you haven't seen the end of it?

How do you define the universe? If it's the sum of all matter and energy, then yes, the universe is finite.  However, it is EFFECTIVELY infinite, since its boundaries change to fit its contents (if you went past the "edge," you would still be in the universe by definition).

[Mangled*]

The universe is of finite size.

If God made imperfect beings such as ourself, I see no reason why he wouldn't place them in an imperfect universe to match.

The universe is predicted to be about 94 billion light years in diameter.. but that is merely the projected spread of matter. Beyond it is unknown, but it is extremely unlikely that there is a true boundry or shell around the universe. More likely, in my opinion is either no boundry, or a crease in spacetime fabric that folds backwards on itself where ether gets denser and denser the further out you go. It is of indeterminate size.

Yes we are imperfect beings... (even though I thought "God created man in his image") But is this an imperfect universe? Who are we to call the universe imperfect?

I believe in the anthropic principal. The universe is fairly optimum.

[mar77a]

The universe has bounds
It is finite

In Smegma's words, how do you know that something is finite if you haven't seen the end of it?

A segment from 0 to 1 has infinite points.

[Svirin Kerath]

The universe has bounds
It is finite

In Smegma's words, how do you know that something is finite if you haven't seen the end of it?

Clearly you're not understanding this, Veritas, so I will explain further.

We can see where the "end" of the universe is, and I put "end" in quotes deliberately.

We can see where the outermost planets and spacely bodies extend. That is the so called "end" or outer "wall." But beyond that is empty space. The empty space is infinite in our universe, but the reaches of physical matter are finite.

As for the moral choices, I was assuming knowledge of the creation of the universe (according to the Bible anyhow), for it is said that "31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

Edit:

A segment from 0 to 1 has infinite points.

But they don't actually exist, they only are hypothetically possible in what is basically mathematical fiction.

[frogboy]

That's all the universe is, too. It's a mathematical model based on theories such as general relativity.

[Svirin Kerath]

That's all the universe is, too. It's a mathematical model based on theories such as general relativity.

Might be better to put it as "the universe is a physical model, which mathematics attempts to quantify."

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

A segment from 0 to 1 has infinite points.

And yet it still has finite boundaries...

[LeetFidle]

Just think of it this way.

You are in a desert, very dehydrated and on the verge of death. in the distance you see a house.  as you get closer you see the great detail in the structure, something that would take great time to create. you walk inside and see a abundant supply of food and refreshments.

Now.

Do you believe something exploded and all this came about?

or do you believe someone came once before and prepared for the survival in the desert?

[Svirin Kerath]

Just think of it this way.

You are in a desert, very dehydrated and on the verge of death. in the distance you see a house.  as you get closer you see the great detail in the structure, something that would take great time to create. you walk inside and see a abundant supply of food and refreshments.

Now.

Do you believe something exploded and all this came about?

or do you believe someone came once before and prepared for the survival in the desert?

Keep in mind that if you'd gotten there earlier, you would've come to what was basically a giant volcano.

[Mangled*]

I hate that view that "everything that is beautiful/detailed must have had a creator"

What nonsense.

Mountains can be beautiful, and they're formed over thousands of years by tectonic plates colliding with each other.

Underwater volcanoes can form new islands from the lava cooling in the water and forming hardened rock.

They're chaotic and they're randomly formed.

Nothing is created.

There's manufacture and there's nature.

[SDFilm]

What if the tectonic plates colliding are all part of the god's plan?

[Svirin Kerath]

I hate that view that "everything that is beautiful/detailed must have had a creator"

What nonsense.

Mountains can be beautiful, and they're formed over thousands of years by tectonic plates colliding with each other.

Underwater volcanoes can form new islands from the lava cooling in the water and forming hardened rock.

They're chaotic and they're randomly formed.

Nothing is created.

There's manufacture and there's nature.

To this, I say, what about people born with genetic mutations? And not just a superficial level- they cause seriously debilitating problems for the person they've been "bestowed" on.

[Mangled*]

What if the tectonic plates colliding are all part of the god's plan?

Well that'd be pretty contradictory since the tectonic plates have been moving and colliding for millions of years when God made the universe only 6000 years ago.

[Kszchroink]

the tectonic plates couldn't have been colliding for millions of years before God made them