Ruger Discussion

[STM1993]

Barret kills the quickest, and it can get you from damn right across the two farthers points of f**king ctf_Run.

If you want to carve down on the advantage a master rugerer has over a master anything else, let's look at the only edge it has over the guns that kill quicker than it does, the M79 and the barret.

For a ruger to smack down two enemies using no grenades, it takes around 3-4 seconds. I don't know the exact numbers, but I'm guessing that's around the same time the one shotters are dumb.

Option a) increase damage so it's sure going to do a two shot kill, but cut down the ammo to two.
Option b) increase damage but raise fire interval so it's like a slow slugger. (imo it'd be weaker this way)
Option c) bink it into oblivion.
Option d) stop worrying and love the bomb.

Good post. Ammo could be an issue, I was wondering if it should be reduced. 4 is strict enough, 3 seems reasonable, 2 is pretty crazy. More than 4 = Overpowered and strictly no, 1 makes it a mini-Rambo Bow.

1-hitters have the advantage over anything in killing speed, but other than 1-hitters, the Ruger is basically the fastest killer in ALL ranges (Spas can beat Ruger in close range, but any further it can't). And the Ruger at the moment can be considered to be pretty fast too.

I think Option A) would need a little bit more nerfs to make up for its firepower than just 2 ammo - has to be mixed with B and C. I reckon Option B and C are the best two. The bink system is flawed though.

[-Major-]

keep same dmg but make the ammo 2-3 would be a pretty cool idea...

[STM1993]

I'd imagine those options' balances could be something like these:

Code: [Select]

[Ruger 77]
Damage=252
FireInterval=40
Ammo=3
ReloadTime=100
Speed=330
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=10
MovementAcc=3
Recoil=0

Code: [Select]

[Ruger 77]
Damage=261
FireInterval=45
Ammo=2
ReloadTime=110
Speed=330
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=70
MovementAcc=5
Recoil=0

Code: [Select]

[Ruger 77]
Damage=252
FireInterval=52
Ammo=4
ReloadTime=115
Speed=330
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=35
MovementAcc=4
Recoil=0[/size]

[-Major-]

the 2nd option isn't in my opinion that good of an option. absolut 2 hit kill. but yet... the reload is not that long (it's just a stronger option of the 1st option), so it would still be very easy and so forth. the most intressting is the 3rd one.

[STM1993]

Third one is like the original, but it's a hell load slower in both firing rate and reload. It has more bink. It also has movementacc 4 instead of 3 (though it's actually pretty useless) just to make sure Ruger users really stop and shoot. I personally think its the best of the three.

The second one, I admit, isn't a very good balance there (could be better, maybe a tad faster). But it could get interesting. I don't support the second one because it's still too powerful at close range. I'd rather use a Ruger than a Spas then.

First one is just original -1 ammo. But I think it could -1 or -2 damage and that's it.



Honestly, it's either making the Ruger SLOWER or making it WEAKER. 8th (Skoskav)'s balance is the 246 damage, 0 bink, 90 reload one, which is weakening it but with a speed boost.

[Clawbug]

Ruger can kill within 0,75 seconds. No other weapon can achieve this. This requires two shots kill, and the first shot is shot right after the player notices an opponent. Then, the delay kicks in and determines the 0,75 seconds. Then, IF it takes 3 hits to kill, it will take 1,5 seconds. 100 % longer. However, even SO, ruger would remain very competitive against other weapons.

Also, Ruger becomes quite much a semi barrett(without delay!) once the enemy has less than 45 % health left. This obviously gives huge advantage while having an automatic weapon to back up. It's.. phenomenal. Unbeatable, if done right.

Yes, Ruger is hard to master, but those who master, gain huge advantage compared to others. The maximum potential is too high, and it has to be nerfed down. Either by increasing the timeinterval and damage, or by decreasing both. That is quite much the only viable solution to this. Yes, it is possible to fiddle around with reload time, bink, movementacc, but those have nothing to do with practical maximum potential in 1v1 situation. Thats what matters.

Everyone picks the weapon which they think they can deal the most damage with within the given time span. Time span being obviously the time they live, in this case.

Uh.... a quick question... Can't Spas do that also? It does two shot kills... And around .75 sec to kill a guy...

Spas is faster indeed, but only from close range which does not occur that much. Besides, from long range Spas is more or less useless against other weapons.

[Extacide]

afterall ruger is almost the only weapon that is effective vs autos

That is very untrue. The autos can't rightfully be bunched up into their own little groups, its not THAT easy. The autos that justifiably have an advantage over ruger which I can easily confirm from experience are people with good steyr/minimi aim. Reason being, they fire very fast and have EXTREMELY high damage potential when the user is accurate from a distance, which pretty much eliminates the ruger's range advantage.

AK is on par with ruger, because it fires the slowest and its damage potential from a range is pretty much equal to the ruger.

The HK is at an ultimate disadvantage when fighting a ruger in open air.

While I agree that autos have way too much dominance with their reliability, ruger isn't the proper counter. The ruger separates itself from the semi's into the barret's category, because thats literally what it is. A modified barret with no delay that does less damage, fires more bullets, and excels at a range. Autos, have to counter these two weapons because otherwise ruger will simply REPLACE the auto. (Well actually, I don't think even THAT is possible until they fix the netcode.)

The proper counter to autos include Desert Eagles (which need a buff!), Spas, M79, and the autos themselves literally counter each other. Ruger can NOT be on this list because the ONLY weapon that has an ultimate advantage over Ruger is the barret. The ruger counters these guns with it's RANGE, not it's ability to run through bink! These guns do not bink, they can rush into an auto and shred it like butter. The Ruger is not supposed to do this, otherwise it will be much too overpowered, both from range and up close where it should justifiably be getting it's ass handed to it.

My comparisons of strengths vs weaknesses within the weapons assumes that the user is VERY accurate, VERY skilled, and is 100% knowledgeable in how to use these weapons PROPERLY to counter eachother as I have just listed (and have listed many times in this thread). This is what I go by when I 1v1, or run the alt route in CTF matches. I'm not saying im any where near the best, but playing by this standard can very well supplement for anyone else's deficit of skill with cold hard strategy. Both of these in unison, and you can become a wrecking force.

its only got 4 bullets, if you encounter any more than one player you're totally boned.

When playing with ruger you take the risk of using the weapon which requires more precision aiming and this should obviously come with a payoff.

Really? When you factor in grenades and a secondary, fighting multiple players isn't so hard with a ruger. One ruger bullet and a grenade easily kills one person, and within a second. Do that two more times and you have a triple kill with one bullet left. Fire the last bullet into a fourth guy and pull out a socom to whip him to death, or even reload as you knife/law/chainsaw the next. When you reload, you have the potential for two more kills. If only one, you may VERY well get lucky and be able to dodge long enough for a reload. You can easily get 6 kills against the worst odds if you're lucky/good enough.

Not that anyone can repeat this on a consistent basis, but if they're good enough its possible. After factoring in all of that, I don't think 2v1 with ruger is that 'hard.' Grenades really eliminate the difficulty of fighting any amounts of multiple players. Ruger alone, sure, but you can't really put ruger into a hypothetical situation without putting into account all of the other weapons at your disposal that can be used in conjunction with the ruger.

[STM1993]

I would agree with Extacide actually. Very good points. Some things I'd like to point out though:

DEs are the proper counter against the Autos, but the DEs actually suffer quite a disadvantage in range. If some of the autos can beat the Ruger in range + advantage of spray and bullet push, wouldn't they be able to beat the DEs easily at range? But other than that, I would agree with you that the DEs would win the autos due to its great DPS and DOT and accuracy (no bink or movementacc at all), given effective range. The Spas is not as lucky as the DEs because it lacks ALOT of range, but it has the ability to speed up the user faster than the DEs can.

You can actually say that the Ruger and the AK are the two most special weapons. Ruger is a semi, yet it behaves like a Barrett. The AK is an auto, yet it behaves quite like a semi.



Personally, I reckon the DEs and MP5 (overshadowed by Aug) need a buff, Spas needs both nerf and buff, Ruger needs a nerf, all autos need less self-bink (except Aug), Aug needs a nerf, Socom could use more damage, Saw could use some good buffing, Knife could use slightly less damage, LAW could reload faster OR have less startup time, the rest is more or less okay.

[Extacide]

DEs are the proper counter against the Autos, but the DEs actually suffer quite a disadvantage in range. If some of the autos can beat the Ruger in range + advantage of spray and bullet push, wouldn't they be able to beat the DEs easily at range?

This is true. The way that they're supposed to counter range however, is to rush them like a freaking madman and close the gap to eliminate range from the field. Thats why DES can do this though, because they don't have bink/moveacc. As long as the user knows how to move close quickly while dodging a little, and can make a few hits from screen distance as they enter the fray, he can very easily close to within 1/3 screen distance as he finishes his kill with half life, assuming the auto user he just fought was VERY accurate. That all being said though...it's very hard to do and not many people are willing to go through the trouble of perfecting it, as it back fires 90% of the time.

The spas, really isn't supposed to beat autos in open air. On maps like Ash, Nuubia, and Dropdown 2 however where the spaces are confined and theres corners to avoid the torrential downpour of spray, the spas returns to it's womb, fully endowed with all of its birth right strength to give unto the autos their blood-ridden asses. =D

Your balance suggestions I can generally agree with aside from the 'nerf' to spas, because its really one of the most underused weapons because its so useless on so many maps. Not all autos need less self bink, namely aug (which you mentioned and needs MORE self bink), but minimi as well. The minimi has a DESTRUCTIVE damage potential, although its a VERY difficult gun to use, its become EXTREMELY popular as of late and is almost used as much as steyr is.

[-Major-]

Spas and M79 is rather weak vs autos and so is DE, this is due to the autos huge push. when I play and I notice the other team is a heavy Auto team I switch to Ruger from DEs and spas.

[STM1993]

The Spas "nerf" I was talking about is making its pellets spread wider (which would actually make its ranged damage weaker, yet make it more likely to hit over a longer range due to its spread), while the buff I'm referring to is to add 1 ammo, possibly more damage or a slightly faster firing rate, maybe even increasing the bullet speed to help increase its damage and increase the speed of Spas-boosting and increasing its bullet push and make its spread slightly bigger (see the Spas thread for better info). Spas isn't really for open air, but I feel it is a little weak when looking at its strengths, yet it is a little too strong when I look at its weaknesses.

I think Minimi is good enough as it is. It really fulfills its purpose - a machine gun which is not as portable as the other autos (movementacc 4) and has a TERRIBLE reload time, but it has devastating DOT and relatively strong DPS. It will never need a buff (but self-bink can be considered), as for nerfs it doesn't really need any, but if it really does need a nerf, all it could use is a -1 damage. Personally, I think it's fine as it is. Besides, another way to balance a weapon is to balance other weapons. If the Minimi is strong, then make the other weapons a little stronger. The goal of the weapon balance is ultimately to balance every gun, and then buff them all up so as to maintain the fast-paced action in 1.2.

M79 is a 1-hitter, of course autos may defeat it. But since the amount of movementacc and bink it has really makes little difference, it can charge in like the DEs and blast the crap out of an auto, provided he doesn't miss. Double the fun - if the auto guy tries to nade, don't forget your M79 can blow up nades.



Back to Ruger, looks like a reduction in speed + an increase in bink would work well.

[Extacide]

The spas doesn't appear close to overpowered when I look at it's weaknesses. The pellet spread would just confirm that it's only useful on close corner maps. Thats the last thing it needs, considering its limited usability.

The reload time and moveacc don't mean anything when you can easily get around those two factors by playing intelligently. Then, an intelligent minimi user will simply be superior because he bypasses his own weaknesses and does utterly superior damage to the other guns.

Yep, exactly right. M79 has no bink or moveacc, so it cuts through spray like a scorching butter knife and simply fires a grenade down the center and completely bypasses the spray. Its literally the ultimate counter, assuming the user is accurate with his shot. The only way to play against it is to know how to throw off their shots (which is sometimes so fast it can be very hard to do), or play defensive and move with them in opposition so that their shot cannot reach.