Do you feel guilty?

[N. Escalona]

I explained things to the extent that I thought I understood them.

Besides, we're supposed to try to understand God and contemplate Him; though we know we can only succeed to an extremely limited extent, and even then only through His grace.

[STM1993]

Hell is usually considered as both a state and a location of utter separation from God. This is a mystery: how He can create us while we are utterly separated from Him. I don't understand it, but I don't think I'm supposed to.

The only thing I understand about Hell is that, according to VenomFangX of youtube, it is like a prison.

Now, those who say "Why would a loving God throw us (sinners) into Hell?", think: would a loving judge not throw a criminal into prison for his crimes? This goes the same way when it comes to God, though with the extra bit that if the criminal were to repent, then he'd be spared.

I wouldn't believe that its an utter separation from God, but more of a separation between good and evil, just as you separate criminals from ex-criminals/law-abiding citizens in the society. God will still be watching those in Hell, but He wouldn't show mercy and has to keep his word about punishing those who do not repent.

The only thing I don't understand is, why did he put us in a prison rather than completely wipe us out from existence?



That's as far as I can understand of the limited extent we can understand about God.

[GSx_Major]

Terribly sorry for continuting to hijack this thread (call it a subplot ) but, eh... Yeah, just sorry about it. (Hey, thats kinda on topic after all)

You say God created time, but then you say time doesn't exist. The world is a series of nows, created one after another, like film, one frame after another so quickly we don't see it as a series of stills. At what, 30 fps? Oh, infinite frames per eternity, thats clever. And doesn't make any sense. It also means that if God stops creating, the world stops - but continues to exist in the eternal now. So without Gods continuous and constant F5'ing, I'd exist but time would stand still.

I'm gonna keep in mind that God creates everything all the time too, since it means God does everything. If I move my hand, I'm not moving it. I'm letting God know I want to move it, so he can adjust it to the right position in the next creation. At the gym, feel the burn? That's communication with God! Bit silly, but it's what you're saying since each creation is independent of previous creations.

God disappearing does, as you say, require a time before and a time after. So does any non static thing, like an action. As you say it, God can't do anything. Well, he can do something - but it can't be done. Which is quite a paradox. He can create, but he can't have created.

I forgot, "God" is the answer.

God is a paradox? Well, obviously he's God and hence he can overcome him being a paradox.

[N. Escalona]

I still hold that hell is separation from God: God is love, and hell must be devoid of joy. If God were to in some sense watch over hell, then they would not truly have lost God. Hell would be no longer hell if there was some union with God, and would instead be some kind of purgatory. Separation from God is just recompense for mortal sin.

• God is not only infinitely good, He is infinitely wise, just, and holy.
• No one is cast into hell unless he has fully and entirely deserved it.

If there were no retribution beyond that which takes place before our eyes here on earth, we should have to consider God extremely indifferent to good and evil. This would violate the first point above.

As for the last bit about hell versus annihilation, recall that it were better for the damned if they had not been born (Matthew 26:24). Death could not be the end of their existence, because positive punishment (i.e. active, contrast passive) is the natural recompense of evil. God must avenge the violation of the moral order, maintaining at least some some proportion between the gravity of sin and the severity of punishment. If all men were fully convinced that the sinner need fear mere annihilation at the moment of death, they would not be deterred from sin and the moral and social order would be seriously menaced.

You say God created time, but then you say time doesn't exist. The world is a series of nows, created one after another, like film, one frame after another so quickly we don't see it as a series of stills. At what, 30 fps? Oh, infinite frames per eternity, thats clever. And doesn't make any sense. It also means that if God stops creating, the world stops - but continues to exist in the eternal now. So without Gods continuous and constant F5'ing, I'd exist but time would stand still.

Argh! Sorry for being unclear. Saying time doesn't exist was only a device to help understand. I was pretending time was a spatial dimension to aid understanding. I probably shouldn't have done that. If God doesn't create, then the world doesn't exist, in the eternal now.

I'm gonna keep in mind that God creates everything all the time too, since it means God does everything. If I move my hand, I'm not moving it. I'm letting God know I want to move it, so he can adjust it to the right position in the next creation. At the gym, feel the burn? That's communication with God! Bit silly, but it's what you're saying since each creation is independent of previous creations.

This I think is a misunderstanding based on my misrepresentation of time. If you move your hand, you are indeed moving it, though of course if God wanted to, he could stop you. He creates the world and our souls, but our souls also give us free will.

God disappearing does, as you say, require a time before and a time after. So does any non static thing, like an action. As you say it, God can't do anything. Well, he can do something - but it can't be done. Which is quite a paradox. He can create, but he can't have created.

Creation is indeed a mystery. I know there is an explanation, but I don't know what it is.

Considering God as a paradox is really just a reflection of our own limited understanding. Paradoxes defy logic, and God is in some sense logical. God could not be contradictory.

[~Niko~]

Does this thread belong to god? why are you all talking about it. if you want to talk about him make another pointless religious thread, don't continue your crap on mine. this topic wasn't meant to be about god, but for the problems of the forum members, you dumbasses.

[Twistkill]

Personally, I'm accepting of any changes in topic, as drastic or random as they may be, as long as the consequent conversation is worthwhile and wholesome. However, the PM system could use some lovin every once in a while.

[GSx_Major]

Terribly sorry for continuting to hijack this thread (call it a subplot ) but, eh... Yeah, just sorry about it. (Hey, thats kinda on topic after all)

Argh! Sorry for being unclear. Saying time doesn't exist was only a device to help understand. I was pretending time was a spatial dimension to aid understanding. I probably shouldn't have done that. If God doesn't create, then the world doesn't exist, in the eternal now.

Right, because he hasn't created it since there is no past. Theres time de facto (as it would otherwise be static), but it's an infinite amount of time in an eternity within now, with no before and no after this continuos now. Right. Also, if you try to aid understanding by saying something wrong, maybe you got this whole explaining thing a bit confused. And it's still, in my limited and puny ability to comprehend, a paradox. And quit with the Allahu Akbar!!, it's not an answer.

If all men were fully convinced that the sinner need fear mere annihilation at the moment of death, they would not be deterred from sin and the moral and social order would be seriously menaced.

As societies with large agnostic and atheistic population show, this is in fact a lie. Your moral, however... And why do christians think the bible is the only thing that stops people from killing, stealing and raping? I guess it reflects your ability to distort the world to fit into your belief system. Or maybe it means you'd all be savages without the bible, in which case I guess it's a necessary evil.

[~Niko~]

This thread wasn't made to talk about religion. Please stop talking about it, focus on the main point of the thread, or I'll request a moderator to close this.

[Splinter-Snake]

PS does not believing in God or hope for a better life after this one not worry you? 

When you're asleep does being awake worry you?

Also, no, I don't feel guilty that this topic is going off-topic.

[~Niko~]

As an atheist, making a thread to talk about something and end up with endless god related discussions dislikes me even more. One more post about religion and ill request someone to lock this.

[LtKillroy]

I feel guilty all the time. Which is why I try not to do stuff I feel guilty about.

[MyiEye]

As an atheist, making a thread to talk about something and end up with endless god related discussions dislikes me even more. One more post about religion and ill request someone to lock this.

Locking it's not gonna help anyone man, cummon I know we've done this all before, but please let some people just have they're say. And I'm sorry, cause I''m probably the one to blame, but this thread isn't hurting anyone, you included.

Terribly sorry for continuting to hijack this thread (call it a subplot ) but, eh... Yeah, just sorry about it. (Hey, thats kinda on topic after all)

Argh! Sorry for being unclear. Saying time doesn't exist was only a device to help understand. I was pretending time was a spatial dimension to aid understanding. I probably shouldn't have done that. If God doesn't create, then the world doesn't exist, in the eternal now.

Right, because he hasn't created it since there is no past. Theres time de facto (as it would otherwise be static), but it's an infinite amount of time in an eternity within now, with no before and no after this continuos now. Right. Also, if you try to aid understanding by saying something wrong, maybe you got this whole explaining thing a bit confused. And it's still, in my limited and puny ability to comprehend, a paradox. And quit with the Allahu Akbar!!, it's not an answer.

If all men were fully convinced that the sinner need fear mere annihilation at the moment of death, they would not be deterred from sin and the moral and social order would be seriously menaced.

As societies with large agnostic and atheistic population show, this is in fact a lie. Your moral, however... And why do christians think the bible is the only thing that stops people from killing, stealing and raping? I guess it reflects your ability to distort the world to fit into your belief system. Or maybe it means you'd all be savages without the bible, in which case I guess it's a necessary evil.

So when did we suddenly decide that God has created, but couldn't have created? And please don't be so general, I don't believe that the Bible is what stops us from killing, I believe it's our concsience ie. The Holy Spirit aka. God. If you made something that you loved would you want to make everyone kill each other? Of course not, it's logic, God made us for a purpose and this purpose was not to kill and love to do so. The bible is important, but never believe it plays a smaller role than God.

PS does not believing in God or hope for a better life after this one not worry you? 

When you're asleep does being awake worry you?

Also, no, I don't feel guilty that this topic is going off-topic.

We're not talking about waking up, we're talking about the realisation of future and eternal agony, it's not somthing that God intended us to just 'brush off'. It's not a 'I'm gonna live new life' sorta thing, it's a 'God cared enough for me/you to suffer and die so that we could better understand Him and spiritual things in general, in a hope that His love for us would become real enough for us to choose His holiness/love/compassion over...the horrible alternative' sort of thing. Please unserstand that despie basing my beliefs in Biblicly taught messages I'm also just trying to sound realistic here, because despite God's incredibly baffling existance there is much about Him that if based on His loving, just and infinitely merciful characteristics, just make sense.

[The Geologist]

Locked, due to the creator of the topic asking multiple times for you guys to stop dragging this into a religious debate and focus on the original question.  Also, warnings handed out for those of you who were brash enough to ignore that to the point of commenting on it.