Realistic weapon's balance

[NamelessWolf]

That idea of Spas making you slow is probably good in theory but it's way too easy to use that to your advantage rather than disadvantage, just by switching direction for hundreds of a second. The hardest part is not to hit team mates behind yourself, but a good player can handle that too.

[STM1993]

I'm probably going to hell for saying this, but doesn't the realistic XM214 Minigun deserve a look too?

[machina]

I'm probably going to hell for saying this, but doesn't the realistic XM214 Minigun deserve a look too?

It's banned at every server so people don't see problems with it... In fact, it's a unknown weapon.

[Jerkington XIII]

I'm probably going to hell for saying this, but doesn't the realistic XM214 Minigun deserve a look too?

While it MIGHT be underpowered, it's not really in need of such a buff like the normal mode mini. It was way more powerful in realistic servers than N servers back to the days of the old N wepmod, despite it being damn hard to control. Ducking and proning help a lot, but ducking on the move does a roll, and proning on the move will get you into trouble.

@machina: I like you more than most people seem to do, but THAT was a damn stupid comment. Just cause you don't see any players with it on LRS ctf, doesn't mean there is none. I admit Mini's banned on the most popular R servers, but that's no reason to leave it dangling. It's not THAT unpopular.

[STM1993]

I can't see how the XM214 isn't UP given its debilitating weaknesses such as startup(33) and horrid recoil(4), its neither a good boost weapon nor a good auto/sprayer in R. I'm not suggesting that the XM214 be improved to the level of N balance but for it to be more useable for whatever its role is. Plus, just because it is not an urgent weapon to balance for any reason(including lack of popularity or just designed to be useless) doesn't mean it doesn't deserve some justice. Chainsaw in both balances is a useless weapon by design but its still given a buff anyway.

[Jerkington XIII]

I didn't say R minigun doesn't deserve a lookup. But you see what happened to N minigun when it really needed a buff? That's what I was afraid of.

[machina]

@machina: I like you more than most people seem to do, but THAT was a damn stupid comment. Just cause you don't see any players with it on LRS ctf, doesn't mean there is none. I admit Mini's banned on the most popular R servers, but that's no reason to leave it dangling. It's not THAT unpopular.

You did not get what I meant telling it like that. Maybe it's my bad but I just said bad true. I mean that almost nobody cares about balancing Minigun because of this reason. I do not agree with it (throwing the problem away by banning weapon) but as long there's no Mini on public servers as long people will not be able to notice problem. Just a few people will see it and their voice will not be heard.

[Mittsu]

i personally would like minigun to be thrown away because its a horrible weapon, spraying hundreds of bullets is annoying and laggy, i think the servers would lose much if significant amount of players used those. It's a weapon either to fool around or for some special gamemodes, the way it works makes it horrible for usual soldat gaming

[KamiStu]

Hi!  Now that I can actually log in (thanks FliesLikeaBrick!)...

It's true that the statistics I collected were limited to a single server, and for mixed game modes.  In fact, a while ago LRS added a TTW server mode which further skews weapon usage as there's no free choice (AK-74 got a major boost as the main 2 classes in that game mode have that gun in common), so any further readings in comparison to the statistics as presented in the first post are moot.  It might be interesting to see how the v1.6.3 changes* will affect gun usage compared to later statistics, though, so I'll continue collecting for a while.  It would be better if some of the more popular server owners would collect this data specifically, though, and analyzed it themselves - it would make custom weapon mods less arbitrary (aside from special game modes / weapons fun) as well

*

Code: [Select]

// Changes from 1.6.2 -> 1.6.3 (realistic)
// Deagles      recoil -4
// Spas         dmg -1, speed -2, fireinterval +1, recoil +11
// Ruger        fireinterval +2, reload +4, bink +4
// Barrett      reload -100, moveacc -1
// Minimi       dmg -1
// Socom        reload -6, recoil -4
// Chainsaw     fireinterval -1, reload -119, ammo +105, recoil -1


[TheOne]

NamelessWolf already brought up the topic of the spas "pushback".
I can not talk for the entire realistic scene, but in Trenchwars this weapon gives a good advantage since speed matters much (especially for capping).

Wondering what effect it had on your velocity, I made a few tests. Measured the absolute value of the velocity vector.
Your running and jumping speed on a flat plateau can get up to 7v, you achieve much momentum through sidejumps and lose it before hitting the ground again.
Shooting the spas in a good moment while in space grants you around +1v. A higher maximal velocity is hardly achieved through that since you lose much of the speed very quickly.

Running a specific way on a map took around 8 seconds (without using special movements as cannonballs or polybounces) with an average of 3.8 in velocity.
Using the spas throwback for the same setup needed 6.3 seconds with an average speed of 4.8v.
(For those interested, I ran the way on tw_Gloryhill from the base-turned entrance of the sidebunker to the own entrance of the mid)

I agree that it's an unique aspect in the game, but rushers and flagrunners can use it to such an extend that I find it hard to cope with using other weapons.

[Bistoufly]

@TheOne:

This is not exclusive to R/S. The spas push-back raises the same questions in normal mode.
My opinion is that while the push-back is part of Soldat and should stay.
It's still too powerful and hurts the game-play.
I would like to see it reduced by at least 30%.

Same goes for minigun and autos.

[NamelessWolf]

I don't think the autos have so much pushback that they're really useful just for running faster. The minigun and the Spas can be used for ridiculous speed though and I don't think it's realistic to see people using their gun in that way, shooting backwards just to run faster.

Bistoufly:
I don't think TheOne was referring to the survival mode, but rather all realistic gamemodes in general and Trenchwar in particular.
In TW running is just as important as killing and therefore you must be able to kill much more (and/or do cannonballs and polybug bounces)  to compensate for the lack of speed which is caused by picking any other gun than the Spas. In my opinion that isn't a good thing.

[Bistoufly]

I don't think the autos have so much pushback that they're really useful just for running faster. The minigun and the Spas can be used for ridiculous speed though and I don't think it's realistic to see people using their gun in that way, shooting backwards just to run faster.

Yes, I should have specified that in the case of automatics, I'm thinking about the push they make on other players. Once you are caught inside a spray, it's very hard to move out of it. While this is realistic and adds a tactical element. I would like the push effect to be milder.

In TW running is just as important as killing and therefore you must be able to kill much more (and/or do cannonballs and polybug bounces)  to compensate for the lack of speed which is caused by picking any other gun than the Spas. In my opinion that isn't a good thing.

I agree. And in my opinion, what you just said also totally applies to normal mode ctf.

[NamelessWolf]

I don't know about normal mode, but in realistic mode the pushing of players you hit is not an issue. The problem is that you can boost yourself by shooting backwards with some weapons.

It probably applies to all game modes where you're supposed to move in a certein direction - which only makes it more important to change - but I believe that the Spas'es recoil thrust has more influence on maps where there is no jetpack. Trenchwar doesn't offer as many options to speed yourself up and the Spas'es boost can therefore be an essential change to all of the gameplay.