Author Topic: Oldat  (Read 8211 times)

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Offline PapaSurf

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Oldat
« on: January 24, 2007, 08:31:21 pm »


MASSIVE CREDS TO MZ.  Most of these are at least extremely similar to his guns.  The main point is to show off the m4 and 1911, but if you want the others, they weill be available for DL.

I can't make an original LAW w/o copying MZ's completely  :-[
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 07:18:31 am by PapaSurf »
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Offline Raithah

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2007, 10:17:43 pm »
Oh, oh, the results are coming in ....

Don't copy Soldat Evolved. Either this is a slight tweak of it, or an impossibly talented pixel-er who is so amazing they copied someone else's style exactly and completely by accident.

Of course if it's the later, I congratulate you full heartedly. So you deserve a :D

If you copied, you deserve a :'(

The preferred outcome of war is peace. Ironic, huh ?
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Aliquam auctor lectus pulvinar neque. Vestibulum commodo nisl convallis nisi. Aliquam in magna. Quisque orci. Duis sed nunc eu quam egestas feugiat. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nulla auctor turpis non urna. Sed porttitor. Donec et dui non odio.

Offline Vltava

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2007, 10:21:55 pm »
He didn't copy Soldat Evolved, even though they do indeed look similar. PapaSurf's style is noticeably different from MZ's. I believe he did, however, use elements from his own Neo-Soldat, eh, eh?

Edit – Anna's post shows quite a contrary to mine, but I have reason to believe PapaSurf didn't steal; but I may be wrong.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 10:38:41 pm by Vltava »

Offline Anna

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2007, 10:28:13 pm »
I can't make an original LAW  :-[

Can you make an original anything?



At least give him some credit, eh?

Offline 1010011010

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2007, 10:39:26 pm »
I can't make an original LAW  :-[

Can you make an original anything?



At least give him some credit, eh?

Anna needs to be paid for being so awesome.

Offline Mancer

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2007, 10:41:23 pm »
Funny cause I like papasmurfs better.
I have a Mac so I can't play with you guys no more :(
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Offline 1010011010

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2007, 10:44:14 pm »
It doesn't matter which are better. What matters is that he's trying to pass them off as original when they're clearly just edited versions of MZ's original models.

Offline Raithah

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2007, 10:48:16 pm »
I can't make an original LAW  :-[

Can you make an original anything?



At least give him some credit, eh?

I'm sorry, didn't I just sa ... oh never mind. The differences between the two sets are great enough to rule out a straight cut 'n paste, so I think that smufies out of the red. But he/she (didn't check) should at least recognize that the guns are way too similar to even deny inspiration from the originals.

But for the record, I'm siding with Anna. But I said it first. So I'm siding with me.

The preferred outcome of war is peace. Ironic, huh ?
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Aliquam auctor lectus pulvinar neque. Vestibulum commodo nisl convallis nisi. Aliquam in magna. Quisque orci. Duis sed nunc eu quam egestas feugiat. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nulla auctor turpis non urna. Sed porttitor. Donec et dui non odio.

Offline 1010011010

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2007, 10:55:37 pm »
Blasphamamamy.

Offline Red Neck

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2007, 11:02:13 pm »
they are similar but i dont think papasmurf copied and pasted it but maybe had inspiration from it (im gonna side with wraithlike we all know hes right)
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 11:07:01 pm by Red Neck »

Offline Wraithlike

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2007, 11:03:28 pm »
Wow, way to generalize, the only similarity is the weapon choice, and the light source being in the top center of the gun. It's also quite obvious that they used completely different palettes, and personally I think Papasurf's are more detailed and a little nicer looking. Not that I don't love Michal's weapons.

But really, you're just saying it because of the light source. It is slightly unique to Michal's work, and makes it look like Papasurf copied his work, when instead he just made a beautiful set of remakes of the original soldat weapons.

And Jesus people, they're similar because they're based off the same guns! They're supposed to be similar.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 11:05:18 pm by Wraithlike »

Offline 1010011010

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2007, 11:10:21 pm »
And Jesus people, they're similar because they're based off the same guns! They're supposed to be similar.

So that's an excuse for the fact that a lot of them are the exact same shape?

Offline Anna

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2007, 11:12:33 pm »
A change of palette and some displaced pixels here and there do not count as original work. I think it's pretty clear that PapaSurf simply drew over MZ's weapons. They share too many of the same pixels that MZ so carefully placed, and it's unlikely that the proportions of the weapons are so similar by accident. It's especially noticeable on the AK. Even the background colour has the same brightness and saturation with just a shift in the hue.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 11:15:44 pm by Anna »

Offline Raithah

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2007, 11:19:01 pm »
Not totaly relevent, but did you realize that the moderators and beta testers are siding on Smurf's side ? Not saying that there are sides or anything, ...

The preferred outcome of war is peace. Ironic, huh ?
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Aliquam auctor lectus pulvinar neque. Vestibulum commodo nisl convallis nisi. Aliquam in magna. Quisque orci. Duis sed nunc eu quam egestas feugiat. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nulla auctor turpis non urna. Sed porttitor. Donec et dui non odio.

Offline Wraithlike

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2007, 11:42:50 pm »
Ok, I do agree that that AK is a bit suspect, but it's also very similar to the one from papasurf's neo-arsenal, which he never really released. Along with the M-16(?) the Spas, and the deagles. I'm going to wait for MZ/Papasurf to come defend their weapons before I make a descision.

Edit: He's also used that same background color in his neo arsenal weapons.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 11:44:29 pm by Wraithlike »

Offline Spyder

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2007, 12:01:17 am »
PS31 would never copy anyone else's mod, he is talented enough to make his own easily.
And it's bound to have similar pixel placement, i mean it's the same gun and there are not many ways to make a weapon when it's like 10px by 4px.

I fully respect both MZ and Papasurf as a modder, but you guys shouldn't accuse him of being a ripper since he is a well-known modder in our community.

Offline Anna

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2007, 12:01:57 am »
This isn't the first time PapaSurf has ripped off MZ's weapons, he just didn't cover it up as much with this set.

Offline Spyder

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2007, 12:19:32 am »
This isn't the first time PapaSurf has ripped off MZ's weapons, he just didn't cover it up as much with this set.
link or it never happened.

Offline ultraman

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2007, 03:09:37 am »
I smited you for that PapaSurf, the AK and the Barret are even the same shape as MZ's!
>:(

Offline Lunerfox

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2007, 03:49:55 am »
It's pretty apparent that Papasmurf actually did some work on the guns, whether they're drawn on versions of MZ's. At least give him that credit of improving on the original, or if you believe this as 100% his own work, then his skills as a pixel artist.
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Offline Prisma

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2007, 03:51:41 am »
Maybe they are similar, but I like this one more than Evolved (I am using it myself at the moment). So I will download yours! Good Job ;o

Offline The Red Guy

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2007, 05:30:22 am »
Still, I like PapaSurf's version better. :D GJ

Offline PapaSurf

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2007, 07:16:59 am »
OH SHI-

Hehe, These ARE MZ's weapons except for m4 and 1911.  The main point was to show off those two since they don't fit so much in MZ's defaults so I changed the colors around a bit and edited some pixels.  Gotta have respect for his style, but mine's pretty different (m249 and chainsaw is diff too)

 I also resent any claims where I have stolen from MZ's work in the past.  While this time is arguable (forgot to post major kudos to MZ in the topic), in the past he and I have been working at the same time completely unrelatedly and happened to do the same thing, ala the first Neo Soldat.  The 2nd one...maybe...

I guess you can say i took his ideas and tried to improve/put my own personal twist on them, and if you're offended by that, I'm sorry.  I was really inspired by his mod that I wanted to make one of my own, and many of his wepaons were in the perfect proprtions.  However, every single color and pixels on those guns are hand placed by me.  You will not find ANY that match his, unless out of pure coincidence.

Main topic changed to give massive creds to MZ.  I'd like to see what he says tho.

Thx for the coments.  Gimme some ideas for the LAW.

EDIT: gostek and weapons gfx are going to completely different.  Anna, I thought you knew me better :(
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 07:20:20 am by PapaSurf »
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Offline Toumaz

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2007, 07:26:53 am »
That chainsaw is at least a lot more awesome than the one in Evolved. Think it's time for me to mix in stuff from another mod yet again.

Ain't saying that ripping stuff off others is a good thing to do tho'... well, I'm waiting for MZ's response to this before I'll start flaming everybody.

Offline cooz

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2007, 07:36:06 am »
yeah, MZ should post here so all those flames started by one person wouldn't appear

...anyone else want to play lawyers? :-X
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Offline toRch

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2007, 07:38:37 am »
and where is the dl  >:(

Offline PapaSurf

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2007, 09:54:57 am »
OOh, I actually didn't see Anna's .gif.

Admittedly, they are much more similar than i had originally intended.  The ak and barrett in particular :(  She has a right to be angry with me, cause if i had seen them, I would have thought the same thing.  However, I think the differences between them are substantial enough

Still, I'm standing by the fact that I'm not trying to steal anyone's work.  Lack of credit to Michal is a fault on my part, but I think he would understand (c'mon prove me right).

No DL link.  I'm not done and if MZ wants me to discontinue, I'll never finish it.

I'd also like to cite the Neo-Arsenal topic.  You can see my style evolving there, as well as a good example that I really don't need to steal other people's work (not to be cocky, but some here say mine is better).  Designs for many of my weapons featured in this mod are there, and you can see how they are as similar to these new ones as Michal's are.  Also, the date on that one predates his Evolved release.

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Offline ..::HHH::..

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2007, 10:14:04 am »
we all know you wouldn't steal someone mod.. dont worry. they look alike in the pixel way, but the texture is all different:)
i hope you finish it, and release it:)


 btw: you sig: "the root of all evil" .. do you like dream theater?

Offline PapaSurf

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2007, 10:24:15 am »
<3 Dream Theater. I'm not really big on metal bands, but I like DT's progressive stuff.  That and I'd suck dick to get a Continuum.
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Offline ..::HHH::..

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2007, 11:04:42 am »
cool! dream theater is my passion in life:D and i didn't notice you avatar until now:P

Offline cooz

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2007, 11:20:45 am »
hmm, even though it's mod of MZ's work,
i think those slight changes made it looks better in my opinion
good job PapaSurf ;)


... me still waits for MZ post here
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Offline Anna

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2007, 11:33:10 am »
Here's a classic - the fists from Neo-Soldat and Soldat Evolved:


Many of the other Neo-Soldat weapons look like the outlines were taken from Soldat Evolved and modified, then coloured by PapaSurf.

Neo-Soldat: [1]
Soldat Evolved: [1] [2]

Offline n00bface

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2007, 11:44:16 am »
This topic is ridiculous.  It's obvious Michal ripped Papasurf off and then went back in time to release it before PS to discredit his efforts.  Absolutely pathetic, I can't believe I used to respect you.  You are a good weapon and map maker, Michal, but this is a new low.

It's a good thing there's only so many ways you can draw a single weapon in Soldat, so they hardly look plagiarized.  I like Papasurf's original better, but I'll admit that Michal's modification to Papasurf's chainsaw came out looking good.

Offline xtishereb

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2007, 01:08:46 pm »
While the similarities between the latest EVO mod and Oldat are substantial in some cases (AK, Barrett), the more you look, the more you notice small differences. (AK forestock, Barrett bipod) I looked closely at the M4s by both authors and confirmed it's an original weapon by PapaSurf. (I can provide a .gif if you want.)
...geez, I really don't know what to say. This is too much drama for me.

In any case, credit has been given to MZ, and he has been cited as a major influence. Let's not make any judgments without hearing from MZ first.

Copying of fists is entirely possible. Soldat Evolved was released 2 months before Neo-Soldat.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 01:10:51 pm by xtishereb »
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Offline Anna

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2007, 01:58:23 pm »
I'm not saying the weapons are an exact copy. My point is that PapaSurf has been ripping off MZ's work and has made no acknowledgement of it until after it was explicitly pointed out. (He "forgot" to credit him. Yeah, right.) Like I said, drawing over someone else's painstakingly crafted pixel art doesn't count as original work. The fact that some of you like PapaSurf's version better doesn't justify the fact that this is plagiarism.

Offline mar77a

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2007, 02:04:04 pm »
Anna, I admit I hacked your computer and stole Polyworks source to write NAGatherBot, sorry ;(

On a more serious note, I agree with n00bface. And Papasurf is great at this steal & improve mods, so let him do it.

Offline MZ

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2007, 03:41:21 pm »
Yeah its pretty obvious that most of the weapons were copied and then given a few outline, shading and hue changes...

I can tell by the pixels ;)

Firstly I use a very limited pallete with not many shades, thats why the shading doesnt look so smooth or blurry like with most other modders. It's no coincidence that the shading intervals are the same in both works.

Also, I use some very specific patterns for shading, for example when I wish to "roughen" an area I place the pixels in a "darker-darker-lighter-darker-lighter-lighter..." pattern. This pattern is still evident on some of the weapons in the same places as in EVO for example the ruger front handguard area.

The outlines are clearly mine, slightly modified. Papasurf likes to square off the barrels and add on a few other changes. I also have a very specific scale and style for outlines, I have yet to see another modder make it similar on their own.

Anyways Papasurf, I think you should further develop your own pixel art style. Your first Neo Soldat was pretty unique, apart from a few outlines. It had a nice dark "gritty" look.

You should try and improve upon your own style, not on mine :)

Offline Vltava

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2007, 04:28:41 pm »
Firstly I use a very limited pallete with not many shades, thats why the shading doesnt look so smooth or blurry like with most other modders. It's no coincidence that the shading intervals are the same in both works.

Also, I use some very specific patterns for shading, for example when I wish to "roughen" an area I place the pixels in a "darker-darker-lighter-darker-lighter-lighter..." pattern. This pattern is still evident on some of the weapons in the same places as in EVO for example the ruger front handguard area.

You're right, MZ, with the exception of the quoted; I use a limited palette and the same dithering style (depending on the difference between the colors, of course) for my weapons, and I don't believe it can be used to justify anything.

Err, a comment about the actual weapons now; the clip on the AK doesn't resemble wood much with so much red (it's looking a bit violet). Also, that has got to be the best MP5 I have ever seen.

Offline PapaSurf

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2007, 06:12:21 pm »
If you want, I could post the palette I used for making this.  It's fully my own.  Not a single color is yours.

I'm honestly not trying to pass of any MZ's work as my own.  I'll admit that my style has come to resemble his, but I can see a lot of differences.  In addition to the things MZ mentioned, which are mostly true, I'm a bit more contrasted with my colors.

-You use double wide pixels a lot and hand made gradients.  I might have stolen style techniques from you, but I don't think it's fair to say I stole your art. 

-For wooden parts, you dither colors and make it look rough, which as a technique, I adopted, but didn't make it like yours at all.   and for barrels, you do an AAABABBBCBCCCDCDDDED...etc. for some things such as the Ruger.  I actually developed that on my own.

-As for scale, you can see that many of my weapons follow the same scale you use, purely out of coincidence.  Citing the Neo-Arsenal topic, many of those weapons would fit into your mods size and shape wise.  With some coloring and shading changes, they'd look like they belonged from the beginning.

In response to Anna, I don't try to steal MZ's work.  The fist thing was my mistake.  I was rushing to get that mod out and just took a shortcut, hoping no one would notice.  There's a probably a lot of shortcuts in those earlier mods, but in no way would I call it plagiarism.  Even now, not that I'm trying to cover my ass here, but forgetting to mention MZ was an honest mistake.  If you don't believe me fine, but I think from the time you've known me that I don't support stealing other people's work.



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Offline Wraithlike

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2007, 08:44:27 pm »
It's kind of funny how MZ is not taking this as badly as ther people are, even though its his weapons that are allegedly being imitated.

No matter, Papasurf, your weapons are quite nice. I hope to see this finished so I can use it to replace the soldat defaults. (Which I've replaced with Michal's for now :D)

Offline Anna

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2007, 09:07:36 pm »
If you want, I could post the palette I used for making this.  It's fully my own.  Not a single color is yours.

Photoshop has a lot of handy features for tweaking the hue/saturation/brightness of an image or replacing the colours in an image with your own.

Quote
As for scale, you can see that many of my weapons follow the same scale you use, purely out of coincidence.

Have you ever seen any other two mods that look so similar? Coincidence, my ass.

Quote
In response to Anna, I don't try to steal MZ's work.  The fist thing was my mistake.  I was rushing to get that mod out and just took a shortcut, hoping no one would notice.  There's a probably a lot of shortcuts in those earlier mods, but in no way would I call it plagiarism.

Do I have to bring out the fist again?

Quote
Even now, not that I'm trying to cover my ass here, but forgetting to mention MZ was an honest mistake.  If you don't believe me fine, but I think from the time you've known me that I don't support stealing other people's work.

So you were doing an edit of MZ's weapons, but when you posted them you forgot to mention that it was an edit of MZ's weapons.

I think the pixels speak for themselves. Note the areas where the relative values of the pixels were left intact:

[1] [2] [3] [4]


edit: here you can see all the pixels that are common between the two sets of weapons:



There are actually two colours; black and a shade of grey. I don't think there is anything more I can say.

« Last Edit: January 25, 2007, 09:40:08 pm by Anna »

Offline Raithah

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2007, 11:12:07 pm »
Jeeze, I think that this has gone a little overboard now. I mean, even MZ has completely forgiven the guy, and even if plagarism is a terrible thing which is not under debate here, I think we've berated him enough to have learned his lesson. Needless to say,  the next time a 'slip-up' like this happens the rest of the mods and VIPs will come down on him like a flying brick.

The preferred outcome of war is peace. Ironic, huh ?
Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Aliquam auctor lectus pulvinar neque. Vestibulum commodo nisl convallis nisi. Aliquam in magna. Quisque orci. Duis sed nunc eu quam egestas feugiat. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Nulla auctor turpis non urna. Sed porttitor. Donec et dui non odio.

Offline PapaSurf

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2007, 07:21:01 am »
Quote
Photoshop has a lot of handy features for tweaking the hue/saturation/brightness of an image or replacing the colours in an image with your own.

I didn't photshop his guns.  I use GraphicsGale and manually placed every single color there.  Of course, I can't prove it, but then again.  Neither can you.

Quote
Have you ever seen any other two mods that look so similar? Coincidence, my ass.

Both me and Michal are refering to the size and shape of the weapons.  I'm saying that many of my guns, ones that Michal has never made before, would fit into his scale.  Admittedly, these are extremely similar, but it's simply that we agree about the size and proportions of certain guns.  I admit, the ak and barret are heavily taken from his ideas, as mine were originally much bigger and IMO awkward looking.

Quote
Do I have to bring out the fist again?

And do I have to apologize again?  I've already admitted to that and I regret doing it.  It was a mistake, and I'm sure if you look hard enough, you can find a bunch more "mistakes" in the past.

Quote
So you were doing an edit of MZ's weapons, but when you posted them you forgot to mention that it was an edit of MZ's weapons.

Not exactly.  I intended this to be a seperate mod not related to Soldat-Evolved.  This isn't an addon pack/ expansions set or whatever.  I had intended to credit Michal for inspiration and for providing some key ideas, such as you might say: a shading style and scale of the weapons.

can't see pics right now, edit when I can.
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Offline cooz

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2007, 08:10:40 am »
hmm, i think this discussion won't get us anywhere,
it looks a little like Anna overreacted as even her brother isn't so offended

as this topic will probably bring only more offtipic flames, could i ask moderator (woops PapaSurf ;) to close it...
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Offline chrisgbk

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Re: Oldat
« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2007, 08:52:08 am »
I'm inclined to agree; this discussion has deviated from the topic and unless another moderator can be convinced otherwise, or there is some other reason for unlocking this topic, it will now be locked to avoid a larger flamewar.

Moral of the story: If you base your weapons on someone elses existing weapons, no matter how many changes you make, make sure you don't forget to credit them and plainly mark your work as being a derivative work; most authors don't mind you doing this as long as you give them credit, and make significant enough changes that there is a noticeable difference between them. Even if you don't directly copy someones whole work but use individual elements of it, it's still the original authors work and they deserve credit.

Better yet, ask for permission beforehand so all the drama can be avoided; guaranteed, someone is going to notice that your work matches someone elses a little too closely for coincidence.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2007, 08:56:37 am by chrisgbk »