New maps vs old maps: updated with my opinion

[{depth}shaman]

I've seen some viscous back and forth over this one, and thought it needed a battle ground. Whats better? The new flashy maps or the old tried and true ones?

Soldat is at an interesting point. A new version is coming out soon, and many experimental maps are being released, most notably VirtualTT's battlefield and coldmorning, notable for their extreme aesthetics. Should the community and mapmakers brace flashier maps, or the older styles and maps? both?

Post inspired by a quick exchange by VirtualTT and Toumaz:
http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=10542.0

Im typing this 12 hours and 24 posts in. Here's my opinion:

I think the community should embrace both. Since there's so many servers we can have a variety of maps being played at all times. What makes soldat so great is its run by the community and players can easily experiment themselves with new gamemodes and maps. I'm currently working on a project in attempt to combine the newer and older maps. Gameplay from older ones, afew stylish dashes from the new ones. Its going to be 3-4 maps released as the "congo campaign." Only two are in a coherent form.

http://img233.imageshack.us/my.php?image=congocavetw4.png

http://img140.imageshack.us/my.php?image=congoswamppq8.png

Do you think I should add some polygons on top of Congoswamp? (floating places to fight?)I'm throwing the idea around. Keep up the discourse, its healthy.

[NinjaGimp369]

Hmmm.. old maps for some reason, I find that the new ones are sometimes are a copy of the old ones and some of them are waaay to big. Although some of the new maps are pretty original, the majority of the good maps are the old ones.

P.S. This is my opinion. 

[ultraman]

Defaults ones.
kthx

[echo_trail]

I'm mostly a fan of the old maps, actually the default ones to be exact. I think they offer alot more ingame excitement, and they're more equally balanced compared to alot of the more recent maps. That being said, I also think alot of the upcoming mappers hold alot of�  potential, and I think we can expect to see alot of great map.
Also, many of the maps recently created are very well looking. They're very detailed, and you can tell alot of effort has been put into making'em. Sadly, as I see it, some mappers don't realise that soldat's not really a very detailed game in terms of graphics, and somehow some maps just doesn't go along with the game, regardless of how good it looks.
Actually it's the modders alike; Weapons, fx., can't be too detailed, 'cause it'll look wierd when a halfblurry soldat with little detail attached to it holds extremely detailed weapon. You get me?

[Toumaz]

My opinion on this issue remains the way it was when I posted in that topic: Definitely defaultish looking maps. I play to have fun and enjoy the gameplay, not necessarily to have eye candy thrown in my face every single minute. (I also had one of those sexy S3 video cards that chopped most of the graphics in half and with moiré-style filtering around every single graphic.. those were the days.)

And on a slightly different subject I would just like to dig up this old map, good ol' Karh, that I still to this day consider to be the best DM map ever created. And it did indeed not look all that good, but in my eyes it was gorgeous. All in my own humble opinion, of course. For some reason it was removed when 1.1.0 was released though.

[Chakra]

The graphics aren't too important, though I do find good graphics and scenery, when done right, can make the game feel rather refreshing and new... like when you load up a new graphics mod or add new sounds.

I also think people are far too stuck in their ways when it comes to map making. They all follow the generic designs of B2b and Laos, large main routes and smaller alt-routes, rather than doing something subtly innovative and different ....like nuubia.

 Many of the flaws in Soldat's balance in general comes from the very layout of most maps, these large open areas promoting the likes of 'spraying', and small corridor alt-avenues offering little tactical innovation either. Unfortunately not many brave new approaches, and not enough 'hardcore' players dare sway from the maps they're used to.

[Graham]

I like simplicity, which is why I vote for older maps, but like chakra said... we need more creativity.

[Spasm]

I think the problem with most of the new maps are they are made to look pretty, like a bob ross painting.  The gameplay usually isn't that great.  I can't say that I'm doing it right either, but that's why I voted for the older maps.  I like to run and attack without having to slow down to adjust to an uneven terrain.  The defaultish maps that are spawning now is definitely a great start. A+ to that idea.

[sakae]

I like the OLD ones the new ones is so boring, low jet  A LOT of bounchy polygons to make it easier for the noobs to go in same speed as veteran players. also there is a lot of screnerys.

I hate the new maps and specialy I hate all avarax maps. they should be burned and soldat should get a protection against them.

[echo_trail]

Ey, do you mean trenchwar maps? Before smiting the hell outta Avarax, know that trenchwarmaps isn't all he ever made.

I do agree to some extend, though. I'm not too fond of TWmaps either, and the newer maps tend to either be way too simple or way to complicated and detailed. The old ones seemed to have the right balance, even if the maps weren't symetric.

[sakae]

yeah skip the symentry, just try to make them balanced. echo trail, Avarax made a hell lot of CS maps and now some TW maps and then some AA maps. cant we just stay clean to the old and simple maps of soldat?

[echo_trail]

Right, I thought you were referring to TW maps only. But yeah, I agree. the simplicity of a map is required in a relitively simple game like soldat in order for it to be convincing, I've always thought so.

I agree with you then. Allthough I don't think ALL of A's maps suck.

[Keron Cyst]

Old. All the way. Maps by such giants like VTT and X-Tender look brilliant but they're too slick and "professional"; they don't fit with the crude rugged military feel of Soldat

[VijchtiDoodah]

Maps by the likes of VirtualTT and company are the reason why I continue to stay out of the mapping section.  They're great looking, but they're all almost worthless when it comes to gameplay.

Chakra is also right that innovation is great, but mappers need to test out the waters through small-scale changes to see what works rather than making failure after failure by taking on too much at once.

[Carlitos]

old maps are the best. no doubt.

[Avarax]

I hate the new maps and specialy I hate all avarax maps. they should be burned and soldat should get a protection against them.

 

I didn't make any AA maps btw o_O

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it depends, i especially like new maps that have something totally unique to them, even new gamemode-maps, which is why i tend to create those
for real gameplay though, i'd say either default, CS  (in R/S) or Boxo's maps.

[echo_trail]

Yeah, boxo-maps are great as well. Especially the more know, complex_9, was great. It's been a while since I've played it, though..

[Avarax]

complex9 inspired me to make TW

[mar77a]

The graphics aren't too important, though I do find good graphics and scenery, when done right, can make the game feel rather refreshing and new... like when you load up a new graphics mod or add new sounds.

I also think people are far too stuck in their ways when it comes to map making. They all follow the generic designs of B2b and Laos, large main routes and smaller alt-routes, rather than doing something subtly innovative and different ....like nuubia.

 Many of the flaws in Soldat's balance in general comes from the very layout of most maps, these large open areas promoting the likes of 'spraying', and small corridor alt-avenues offering little tactical innovation either. Unfortunately not many brave new approaches, and not enough 'hardcore' players dare sway from the maps they're used to.

Why isn't inf_Rise default then? COUGH.

EDIT: And yeah, MM, Demonic & chakapoko maker win by default.

[sakae]

no offense Avarax, but cant you just delete all the cs maps from all the download locations?

since this is soldat and not CS, if you want to paly cs maps so bad go and play cs -_-.
aaaand, the new R/S sucks, the old R/S without autocidwas so much better. and at that time nobody bug abused (transparat head). it was so much better.

TW might be ok, but not cs maps!!!

[Chakra]

I think half the problem with custom maps is the lack of consideration towards the fluidity of motion.  Defaults are just easy to move around, but some customs can really slow you down and leave you a sitting duck with bumpy floors and layouts with little consideration towards how a person can move through them while maintaining a certain speed.

[numgun]

The graphics aren't too important, though I do find good graphics and scenery, when done right, can make the game feel rather refreshing and new... like when you load up a new graphics mod or add new sounds.

I also think people are far too stuck in their ways when it comes to map making. They all follow the generic designs of B2b and Laos, large main routes and smaller alt-routes, rather than doing something subtly innovative and different ....like nuubia.

 Many of the flaws in Soldat's balance in general comes from the very layout of most maps, these large open areas promoting the likes of 'spraying', and small corridor alt-avenues offering little tactical innovation either. Unfortunately not many brave new approaches, and not enough 'hardcore' players dare sway from the maps they're used to.

Why isn't inf_Rise default then? COUGH.

EDIT: And yeah, MM, Demonic & chakapoko maker win by default.

My favorite maps are:
-Are located in an offworld area (Alien-like, space, Industrial complex, Asteroid fields.)
-My own *ahem*
-Are defaultish, but still have good quality.

Those maps are from Boxo, Chakapoko, and some other random maps I've seen...


Also I've noticed that Inf_rise, Inf_Ponutehdas, Inf_POWcamp and inf_rescue are extremely popular on most inf servers. IMO those should become default. They all have great pontential.

Btw.

no offense Avarax, but cant you just delete all the cs maps from all the download locations?

Havent laughed this hard for a long time. xD

Date Posted: 21 February 2007, 19:52:04

I think half the problem with custom maps is the lack of consideration towards the fluidity of motion.  Defaults are just easy to move around, but some customs can really slow you down and leave you a sitting duck with bumpy floors and layouts with little consideration towards how a person can move through them while maintaining a certain speed.

Oh yes. Thats a good point, since ive had hard time moving in several new-gen maps.
Not that I havent adapted, but some are truly non-fluid like Chakra said.

[Boxo]

I guess you know what I think. Gameplay is what matters, and many of the new-style maps are worthless pieces of art to any experienced player. The defaults are still the most popular because nobody has come up with anything better.

That said there are still plenty of good custom maps around and being made (like this, this, this and this) if you dug a little instead of just whining and complaining.

The graphics aren't too important, though I do find good graphics and scenery, when done right, can make the game feel rather refreshing and new... like when you load up a new graphics mod or add new sounds.

I also think people are far too stuck in their ways when it comes to map making. They all follow the generic designs of B2b and Laos, large main routes and smaller alt-routes, rather than doing something subtly innovative and different ....like nuubia.

 Many of the flaws in Soldat's balance in general comes from the very layout of most maps, these large open areas promoting the likes of 'spraying', and small corridor alt-avenues offering little tactical innovation either. Unfortunately not many brave new approaches, and not enough 'hardcore' players dare sway from the maps they're used to.

I think half the problem with custom maps is the lack of consideration towards the fluidity of motion.�  Defaults are just easy to move around, but some customs can really slow you down and leave you a sitting duck with bumpy floors and layouts with little consideration towards how a person can move through them while maintaining a certain speed.

Agree totally on both points. Also check out my last 3 ctf maps pretty much inspired by those complaints when you made them before.

[Anna]

I enjoy seeing mappers push Soldat's graphics to their limit, but I think the default style maps (especially chakapoko maker's) are the most suitable for Soldat. I find that good colour choices, carefully placed scenery, and an appropriate texture can make a defaultish map quite appealing. But it's hard to combine extreme graphical prettiness with good gameplay because Soldat just wasn't made for it.

For example, polygon placement greatly affects both how the map plays and how the map is shaded. Visually, the more polygons you have, the more detailed you can make the shading. This is at odds with gameplay, where less polys is better because it reduces collision detection problems like poly bugs (not to mention issues like high poly count maps causing the framerate to drop when edges are on). Then there are things like lack of real support for multiple textures, lack of background polygons, no animated scenery, no parallax scrolling, no real lighting effects...

[{depth}shaman]

Whoa! this ones only been up for 12 hours and look at the commotion! Awesome. Im surprised to see so much more support for the older maps. I'm going to go back and add my opinion to the original post. Thanks for shedding some light on this one everyone!

[Frenchie]

Depends..
I don't pick maps on looks, I usually pick them on how unique they are. (like ctf_warp, ctf_paradrop, inf_meatball, inf_lab(awesome zombie map (WPing atm))

But for
Defaults - Chapako (fav mapper check out inf_meatball, inf_cannibal <--awesome zombie maps) Boxo (I like some.. like Steel)
Graphics - VirualTT (No one can beat his looks (Like all tw maps by him)) Hene (Awesome story mode maps)


So yeah, I don't base on looks (but I like having them to distinguish each mappers style) but on gameplay and uniqueness

[The Philanthropist]

I like old maps because it has movement flow. Soldat's biggest coolness factor is it's physics engine, and the old maps really take advantage of speed and distance of jumps to create a flow. If you notice on ctf_Maya, you can jump and keept running and jetting without any speed loss. the same can't really be said for the CS maps n some other ones. No Flow. You always have to stop and start, and turn around.