Possible solution to the 1 hit kill problem?

[Zamorak]

I couldn't agree more with Jon. Everyone else try and play 1.2.1 balance for a while and you will see what I mean.


However, I do not think they need a %30~ increase, that's too much.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

People can kill me INSTANTLY....I decide to play normal, my weapons do very little damage, but their weapons still instakill.

Sorry, but instakill != overpowered.  See below for further explanation.

I'm saying unnerf the other weapons.... 1 kill weapons will be more balanced if other weapons have some more power to them.

I agree with Lord Frunkamunch. The other weapons don't need nerfing.  Soldat is about killing, right?  Then a weapon's power should be determined by how many kills it can make, not how long it takes to kill a player.  In a deathmatch, the best you can hope for with an instakill weapon is a 1:1 ratio.  And missing is not allowed.    If you choose a "nerfed" weapon, like the AK-74, you can get a kill every seven shots.  You could have several kills in the same time it takes you to reload your barret or pick up your knife.  And suppose you come across two enemies at 50% health?  With an instakill weapon, you're limited to one kill.  With an an auto or even the ruger, you get two kills.

You need to remember several things here:
1. Soldat is not 1v1.
2. You dying a lot does not translate into one person getting a lot of kills.  Remember, they're fighting each other too.
3. Annoying != overpowered
4. Deadliness is not the same as single shot damage.

[Tai]

*sigh*

  What solution can there be to weapons that are fair? We don't need to confiscate by making the autos stronger because they're already strong enough if you know how to use them, or aim.

   The Deagles, Ruger, and Spas reward aim more than the ability to spray and in turn quicker kills, while the other autos (HK, AK, Steyr, and Minimi) can spray and in turn cause potential bink. The M79 can only do so much if you keep a safe distance from the player. Like it or not, you can find that in small maps like Arena 2 if you're smart. It's small, but it's not a 2X2 box! The Barrets and Knives are as tough of weapons than you'll ever face that are a 1-shot kill.  The Barret is binkable, and the knife requires aim.

 You have to use more strategy, not more power.

[6th_account]

The general, and the beta crew's consensus, along with statistics of weapon usage, state that 1-hit killers are highly "whorable" and overused. You denying that Tai? I suppose you deny the holocaust too?

You, you're worse than hitler

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

The general, and the beta crew's consensus, along with statistics of weapon usage, state that 1-hit killers are highly "whorable" and overused. You denying that Tai? I suppose you deny the holocaust too?

You, you're worse than hitler

Wow, someone took their straw man pills today...and downed it with a glass of ad hominem water.  Hey guys! Contest time! Let's see how many logical fallacies we can make in two lines!

Tai made no mention of whether or not the M79 was overused.  He simply said it's fine as is.

"Overused" and "overpowered" are two VERY different things.  If a weapon is overused, that simply means it's appealing for some reason.  Consider a deathmatch.  Three players pick the M79 because it's a one hit kill.  One player picks the Ak-74 because he knows what he's doing.  Even if the AK user wins, there will still be more kills with the M79.  Does this mean it's overpowered? Of course not.

If the consensus really was that the M79 is overpowered, why do discussions about it go on for 20 or more pages?  Take a look at the first page of the "M79 and Barret Unfair?" discussion.  Do a quick count of how many people are for and against it.

What? People think it's fine? Your argument is invalid?

Yes, many people start out with the M79.  Explosions are fun.  But as they play longer, they switch to other weapons.  Is it because the M79 is overpowered?  Do they want to make the game harder for themselves?  Are they trying to "do their part" to decrease M79 usage?

Ha!

If you believe any of that, there's something wrong with you.  Skilled players don't use the M79 because they realize it's easy to counter and highly situational.  Yes, the M79 can be very effective at times.  But most of the time, it's simply a slow weapon that's easy to dodge.

And what about people like me and Tai? If the M79 is truly overpowered, why are there still people like us that claim it's fine, underpowered even?

[iDante]

Totally agree with that gamer_2k4. Worded how it should be
+karma...

[Zamorak]

*sigh*

 What solution can there be to weapons that are fair? We don't need to confiscate by making the autos stronger because they're already strong enough if you know how to use them, or aim.

 The Deagles, Ruger, and Spas reward aim more than the ability to spray and in turn quicker kills, while the other autos (HK, AK, Steyr, and Minimi) can spray and in turn cause potential bink. The M79 can only do so much if you keep a safe distance from the player. Like it or not, you can find that in small maps like Arena 2 if you're smart. It's small, but it's not a 2X2 box! The Barrets and Knives are as tough of weapons than you'll ever face that are a 1-shot kill. The Barret is binkable, and the knife requires aim.

 You have to use more strategy, not more power.

The whole thought is that the weapons are unfair, while an experienced player may know them to be essentially fair. However the biggest problem is with the general population, and the general population is what needs to be looked at the most.

Sure, "pros" know how to use tactics and every weapon effectively, but the vast majority of the players don't.

I think we must ask ourselves a question:


Do we want what's best for the many, or what's best for the few?

This is assuming that the general population is in great disdain about "whoring". Generally, you won't see the same kind of mindlessness in the professional leagues and CWs..

It is agreeable that the barrett and m79 are overused. It is also agreeable that it is a bad, and unfeasible notion to nerf either one. But the question is do we control the overuse through buffing or changing the balance, or do we just let it be?

That's the hard part about balance, as it's pretty hard to predict exactly what's going to happen, and this is what the problem is, deciding exactly what the goal is and how to achieve it.

So, I ask you, what is the goal?


 

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Sure, "pros" know how to use tactics and every weapon effectively, but the vast majority of the players don't.

[SNIP]

So, I ask you, what is the goal?

The same goal as any game: Easy to learn, difficult to master.  If you make the weapons ideal for the newbies, there will be no incentive to get better.  After all, everyone is at the same level and will remain there.

Think about chess.  The pieces are the same for every player, just as the weapons in Soldat are the same for every player.  It's experience and technique that matters.  Sure, the majority of people are relatively bad at chess.  Should pieces be removed or strategies disallowed, simply to make things "best" for the new players? Of course not.  And the same holds true for Soldat.

[Zamorak]

The general, and the beta crew's consensus, along with statistics of weapon usage, state that 1-hit killers are highly "whorable" and overused. You denying that Tai? I suppose you deny the holocaust too?

You, you're worse than hitler

If the consensus really was that the M79 is overpowered, why do discussions about it go on for 20 or more pages? Take a look at the first page of the "M79 and Barret Unfair?" discussion. Do a quick count of how many people are for and against it.

He said the general consensus was that it's overused. You said they said was it overpowered.

Sure, "pros" know how to use tactics and every weapon effectively, but the vast majority of the players don't.

[SNIP]

So, I ask you, what is the goal?

The same goal as any game: Easy to learn, difficult to master. If you make the weapons ideal for the newbies, there will be no incentive to get better. After all, everyone is at the same level and will remain there.

Think about chess. The pieces are the same for every player, just as the weapons in Soldat are the same for every player. It's experience and technique that matters. Sure, the majority of people are relatively bad at chess. Should pieces be removed or strategies disallowed, simply to make things "best" for the new players? Of course not. And the same holds true for Soldat.

Sure, but going back to a balance like the ones in >=1.2.1 wouldn't be making it easy for everyone. Even if weapons do more damage, everything is equally more damaging, and that doesn't make the game so easy that you can learn to play in 10 minutes.

As it is now, I have a practicallly perfect record in 1v1. Guess what I use? The barrett. The barret is the end-all weapon for 1v1. If you have two equally experienced players, and one has barret, and the other is using anything else.. The barrett wins. Why?

Simply put, one-hit-kills completely change a fight. Because, the one hit killer can have you dead before you even fire a shot. This is not so with other weapons.  So, instead of having one type of weapon dominate, wouldn't it be better to have the other weapons be more effective, as to lessen the power of the onehitkills.

I do believe the barrett, and only the barrett, is overpowered.

I could care less about m79, because that is different in nature because it shoots an arcing grenade, rather than a linear traveling bullet.

You might also misunderstand my motives, I don't care that m79 is overused as much at the barrett is overpowered, and I think the current balance too slow.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

The general, and the beta crew's consensus, along with statistics of weapon usage, state that 1-hit killers are highly "whorable" and overused. You denying that Tai? I suppose you deny the holocaust too?

You, you're worse than hitler

If the consensus really was that the M79 is overpowered, why do discussions about it go on for 20 or more pages? Take a look at the first page of the "M79 and Barret Unfair?" discussion. Do a quick count of how many people are for and against it.

He said the general consensus was that it's overused. You said they said was it overpowered.

6th_account said that the M79 should be changed because it was overused.  I was saying that it made little difference whether or not the M79 was overused, since most people don't think it's too strong.

As it is now, I have a practicallly perfect record in 1v1. Guess what I use? The barrett. The barret is the end-all weapon for 1v1. If you have two equally experienced players, and one has barret, and the other is using anything else.. The barrett wins. Why?

Because in 1v1, almost every map becomes a large map.  And the Barret excels in large maps.  Is this because it's a long range weapon? Not necessarily.  This is true because as map size increases, the chance that you'll encounter enemies near each other decreases.  This gives you a chance to reload.  The purpose of the long shot delay is to give the user a disadvantage immediately after firing.  Ideally, in a 1v1 game, you should be able to get to the Barreter before he can fire.  But with most maps, you spawn quite a distance from the Barreter, so he's reloaded by the time you get to him.  Try 1v1 on a map like Arena2.  See if you get the same results.

You might also misunderstand my motives, I don't care that m79 is overused as much at the barrett is overpowered, and I think the current balance too slow.

No, that's not it.  My response was about weapons in general; the M79 was never mentioned.

[jazh0e]

You all talk so much shit, when you stop playing publics and play a match where people can aim. You will be surprised... if 1 hit killers are so good... just use them. Have fun bashing crappy afk public players.

[Zamorak]

The general, and the beta crew's consensus, along with statistics of weapon usage, state that 1-hit killers are highly "whorable" and overused. You denying that Tai? I suppose you deny the holocaust too?

You, you're worse than hitler

If the consensus really was that the M79 is overpowered, why do discussions about it go on for 20 or more pages? Take a look at the first page of the "M79 and Barret Unfair?" discussion. Do a quick count of how many people are for and against it.

He said the general consensus was that it's overused. You said they said was it overpowered.

6th_account said that the M79 should be changed because it was overused.  I was saying that it made little difference whether or not the M79 was overused, since most people don't think it's too strong.

snip

Because in 1v1, almost every map becomes a large map.  And the Barret excels in large maps.  Is this because it's a long range weapon? Not necessarily.  This is true because as map size increases, the chance that you'll encounter enemies near each other decreases.  This gives you a chance to reload.  The purpose of the long shot delay is to give the user a disadvantage immediately after firing.  Ideally, in a 1v1 game, you should be able to get to the Barreter before he can fire.  But with most maps, you spawn quite a distance from the Barreter, so he's reloaded by the time you get to him.  Try 1v1 on a map like Arena2.  See if you get the same results.

snip

No, that's not it.  My response was about weapons in general; the M79 was never mentioned.

I think you missed my point.

I did not mean to ask why the barrett is overpowered in 1v1, I said it is. The "why?" was rhetorical. I answered the why pretty much in the next paragraph.



jazh0e, I don't know who you are.. But if you can't contribute to the argument in a positive way, do not insult us.

Also, for your information, I do play in gathers and CW.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

No, that's not it.  My response was about weapons in general; the M79 was never mentioned.

I think you missed my point.

I did not mean to ask why the barrett is overpowered in 1v1, I said it is. The "why?" was rhetorical. I answered the why pretty much in the next paragraph.

Right, I understood that.  I just took the opportunity to offer a different answer.

[Therion]

Hello, I'm new here .

I noticed the one hit problems when playing online (in single player I'm using a modified weapon.ini, so I don't experience it.). I would rather say that it's an automatic weapons problem - they are too weak and give one-hit-killers too much time to fire back. I had situations when I engaged people with shotguns/rugers/barrets and hit them with first 3-4 bullets only to be killed when they fired back.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Hello, I'm new here .

Welcome to the forums.

I would rather say that it's an automatic weapons problem - they are too weak and give one-hit-killers too much time to fire back.

I hate to criticize your first post, but it needs to be said.  Your "solution" is the EXACT SAME THING that the person who started the post said.  Maybe it's no big deal, but it seems like you're presenting the idea as your own, which implies that you either did not read or chose to ignore the first post.  A simple "I agree, ...." would have done the job.

Sorry if I'm making a big deal about this, but a general rule of thumb is that responses to a thread are just that: responses to the original post.  When replying to others, quoting is used.  I have nothing against you personally, so don't take this the wrong way.  I'm just trying to help the newbie with forum etiquette. =)

[iDante]

bah, good discussion there between 2k9 and zammyboy, however I would like to intrude and point out that this:

If you have two equally experienced players, and one has barret, and the other is using anything else.. The barrett wins.

is not true. Have you ever heard of bink? Its this funny thing that makes the barrett miss and then die. A good auto against a good barrett wins most of the time (in my experience)

[Zamorak]

That's true, but there is a certain tier of barrett skill and tactics such that the barrett user chooses when to expose himself and shoot, therefore not allowing the auto time to bink him, or if a bullet doe hit.. The guy will be dead.


I'm not saying this happens alot, but it is what can happen when barrett users become really good. Really though, it's the tactics which are more whoreable than the weapons... But we can't balance tactics in the way that we can weapons.

[Zantalos]

One and only solution for 1 hit kill weapons

Listening?

Might want to write this down!

Got a pen?

No I can wait

....

Ok ready?

Here goes...

Learn to move around them! Once you do they will miss that one shot can you have up to 3 seconds to unload your clip and nades upon the poor soul. Take it from a m79er if you know how to move you can kill any one hit wonder in any server.

Dude you can't dodge a sniper bullet, you can't dodge a m79 either. You think you're faster than a bullet, you think you can turn faster and change directions faster than someone can adjust with their mouse? That's stupid, no. You give me a video, because you can't do that. In fact we'll go one on one and we'll see, you can't dodge a sniper rifle, you can only be "missed" by a noob.

[Sytrus]

Dude you can't dodge a sniper bullet,

Lie number one. You can dodge them, you just gotta know how. Normally, in CTF games you move fast because you don't wanna be slow. Now you just gotta move a bit unpredictable by backflipping and diving forward.
If that fails, spray him, the bink will take him apart.

you can't dodge a m79 either.

Second lie. Even a bigger one than the first. You can dodge M79s easiely when you have the skill to do so. It's very ease, I mean very. Just do a quick roll forward or a backflip and bang, you are boosted into his back. If you don't manage to kill him now, it's just your fault.

You think you're faster than a bullet, you think you can turn faster and change directions faster than someone can adjust with their mouse?

HAH.
Faster than an M79 bullet I am. I am faster than it, because I have the skill to predict how the enemy may be aiming and shooting. Unless it's weapon modded, you can dodge M79s so easy, that's ashaming if you take this as an argument dude.


You cannot call a weapon overpowered, just because you can't handle, neither avoid it. Every weapon has is advantages and disadvantages, learn to use those instead of bitching. What do you wanna do? Nerf the Barrett so it's a 2-hit-kill? What slick shit would that be. No seriousely, the current balance on 1-Hit-Kills is very okay.

[iDante]

You cannot call a weapon overpowered, just because you can't handle, neither avoid it. Every weapon has is advantages and disadvantages, learn to use those instead of *****ing. What do you wanna do? Nerf the Barrett so it's a 2-hit-kill? What slick **** would that be. No seriousely, the current balance on 1-Hit-Kills is very okay.

ahhh... I agree with you there. You know what would be fun? Barrett as 2-hit killer but with 2 shots per clip that are very fast (no startup) in between. lol I'm gonna try that.