Possible solution to the 1 hit kill problem?

[6th_account]

But you did imply it.  I've said, quite often, that the easiest way to defeat the M79 is to dodge it, and you replied by saying you weren't looking for a veteran balance.

You assumed I shared your oppinion? Don't be silly. I wrote:

This isn't about finding a good veteran balance. Both sides' issues should be dealth with.

...as a response to:

Ironically, it's the newbies who have a problem with the one hit kills.  The experienced players don't worry about them, since they know how to counter.

Someone running towards you shooting their m79 can give the shell as much as the same velocity as a socom bullet. Are you saying you can dodge a socom? And in close range? No one can, despite cat-like reflexes. And most times it won't be ideal circumstances for you. You'll be low on jets, have a low momentum, or be in the middle of a fall or a rush yourself with a constant velocity. The vets are indeed better at countering pub-style m79 rushing, but a big key to this is spray and defensiveness. The only solution shouldn't be a lame and boring one.

Ever heard of a Zerg rush? It basically means instant death to people unaccustomed to it. (Kind of like the M79! Wow.)  But apparently you know how to deal with it, since you claim that everything is balanced.  WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING.  Like the M79, it only works on newbies.  And, like the M79, it's easily countered if you know what you're doing.  What's that? A game can be balanced, even if newbies have trouble with some aspects of it? Crazy.

Meh, I knew you'd bring that up. There's a "no rush 5/10/.. min" rule, and usually that's the default. Since it's such a useful strategy - Like the m79? - Not obaying that rule is classed as a sort of cheating, especially since people then won't build a strong defence early in the game to avoid crippeling their economy for the later game.

[Veritas]

Like the M79, it only works on newbies.

What?
The m79 is a viable weapon in alt routes on most maps, somewhat viable top in others, and useful anywhere in Nuubia.

Yes, in some situations it's very useful.  But most weapons are like that.  My point was that it's the newbies who are killed consistently.  If you know what you're doing, must weapons have a pretty good chance against the M79.

The way you worded it implied that the m79 only works against newbies and that anyone who was remotely good could easily deal with an m79. This is hardly the case.

I joined a deathmatch where everyone was using the barret.

I was coming from a CTF perspective, not a DM one.

Maybe so, but the concept remains the same.

No, not really. If you have a crappy team, and the other team has, out of 6 people, 3-5 m79s, you're going to die a lot no matter the skill of the player. The AK takes enough time to kill one person that the next m79er has more than ample time to rush up and pop a shell in your face. This is assuming of course that you even have enough time to engage the enemy before you have 3 m79 shells coming at you.
Theres quite a bit of difference between CTF and DM.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

The way you worded it implied that the m79 only works against newbies and that anyone who was remotely good could easily deal with an m79. This is hardly the case.

That is the case, though.  The only exception is when the M79 user is skilled with it; then again, isn't that the same with any weapon? However, very few people are truly skilled with the M79.

No, not really. If you have a crappy team, and the other team has, out of 6 people, 3-5 m79s, you're going to die a lot no matter the skill of the player. The AK takes enough time to kill one person that the next m79er has more than ample time to rush up and pop a shell in your face. This is assuming of course that you even have enough time to engage the enemy before you have 3 m79 shells coming at you.

Sure, I won't deny that you'll have shells coming at you.  The key is to not let them hit you.  Do you think I'm making this up? Do you think I get killed all the time with the M79, but for whatever reason still maintain that you can dodge them? This is not hypothetical.  I've never said, "Well, if you could dodge, the M79 would be pretty easy to counter.  Too bad that's not possible."  No.  I know that it IS possible to avoid M79 shells, and what's more, there are many people who agree with me.

Who's more credible? The person who hasn't succeeded and concludes it's impossible, or the person who has succeeded and tells you it IS possible?

[iDante]

Who's more credible? The person who hasn't succeeded and concludes it's impossible, or the person who has succeeded and tells you it IS possible?

the latter.
I want to play you so I can use m79 and see how good you are at dodging. do you have xfire/aim?

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Who's more credible? The person who hasn't succeeded and concludes it's impossible, or the person who has succeeded and tells you it IS possible?

the latter.

Exactly!

I want to play you so I can use m79 and see how good you are at dodging. do you have xfire/aim?

My xfire is lawgamer2k4.  I'll try to be on sometime.

[Veritas]

The way you worded it implied that the m79 only works against newbies and that anyone who was remotely good could easily deal with an m79. This is hardly the case.

That is the case, though.  The only exception is when the M79 user is skilled with it; then again, isn't that the same with any weapon? However, very few people are truly skilled with the M79.

There are plenty of people that are reasonably skilled with the m79 and use it to a good amount of success in gathers\scrims. Theres a grey scale here, not "Well either you own or you suck."

No, not really. If you have a crappy team, and the other team has, out of 6 people, 3-5 m79s, you're going to die a lot no matter the skill of the player. The AK takes enough time to kill one person that the next m79er has more than ample time to rush up and pop a shell in your face. This is assuming of course that you even have enough time to engage the enemy before you have 3 m79 shells coming at you.

Sure, I won't deny that you'll have shells coming at you.  The key is to not let them hit you.  Do you think I'm making this up? Do you think I get killed all the time with the M79, but for whatever reason still maintain that you can dodge them? This is not hypothetical.  I've never said, "Well, if you could dodge, the M79 would be pretty easy to counter.  Too bad that's not possible."  No.  I know that it IS possible to avoid M79 shells, and what's more, there are many people who agree with me.

Sure its possible, but my point is that when you're going singlehandedly up against 2, 3, or more m79s, which is the situation I presented, you're probably going to get ran over no matter how excellent you are. Killing someone with the AK gives another opponent more than enough time to run at you to the point where you're not able to dodge.
Obviously this won't be the case 100% of the time, but my end point is that overuse is whats annoying about the m79 in pubs, not that its extremely overpowered in pubs.

Who's more credible? The person who hasn't succeeded and concludes it's impossible, or the person who has succeeded and tells you it IS possible?

Neither, when the two situations being described aren't analogous.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Sure its possible, but my point is that when you're going singlehandedly up against 2, 3, or more m79s, which is the situation I presented, you're probably going to get ran over no matter how excellent you are. Killing someone with the AK gives another opponent more than enough time to run at you to the point where you're not able to dodge.
Obviously this won't be the case 100% of the time, but my end point is that overuse is whats annoying about the m79 in pubs, not that its extremely overpowered in pubs.

If you're going up against two or three opponents with ANY weapon, you're going to die.  You're more likely to die against autos though, since there are many more shots to dodge.  Oh, and guess what?  After the three auto users kill you, they still have shots left.  If you went up against three M79s and died, your team would suddenly have three enemies coming at them that can't fire.  Easy kills.  And of course, this gives more support to the idea that the M79 is underpowered.  Sure, one on one, it may seem overpowered.  But in a team game (you continue to bring up CTF), the M79 is at quite a disadvantage.

Who's more credible? The person who hasn't succeeded and concludes it's impossible, or the person who has succeeded and tells you it IS possible?

Neither, when the two situations being described aren't analogous.

How are they not analogous?  Heck, you don't even have to dodge the shell.  Just stay out of range.  The M79's effective range is probably under 30 meters.  But with the AK-74, you can hit them from across the screen, say 50 meters.  If you have three M79 shells coming at you, stay back, fire at them, and once they expend their ammo, go in for the kill.  And don't tell me they come up too fast.  In a team game, you only have to look one direction.  You can look 50 meters ahead of your soldat, and be prepared for anyone coming.

[iDante]

I still got you several times when you werent looking

[mxyzptlk]

Have you noticed that the m79 reload time is EXACTLY that of the average respawn time?

I sure have.

[Twistkill]

And don't tell me they come up too fast.  In a team game, you only have to look one direction.  You can look 50 meters ahead of your soldat, and be prepared for anyone coming.

Partially true, so this is where the physics concept comes in. Even if you're looking forward in that whole 50 M, while you're moving forward at a quick pace, the enemy will also be moving forward, and when he notices you or vice versa, you may be within effective range due to the fact that you're both moving towards each other, therefore closing the gap quicker. Even with a long-range weapon like the Ruger or Minimi, you may still end up getting hit due to this. Not only that, but unless you already have sideways momentum, you're not gonna be able to boost very quickly in the opposite direction. This isn't 100% universal, but it can happen.

I don't play CTF as often as I used to, let alone scrims, so I don't have as much of a idea of how the balance is like compared to DM, but I'm not a complete noob.

Kinda off-topic here, but somewhat related: The entire weapon balance is different between DM and CTF. A person will be facing 3 opponents with 2 teammates in a 3v3 CTF, and they only have to face one direction. On the other hand, in a DM they're all by themselves, they may face 10+ opponents, (Maybe more if it's even more crowded) and those opponents may come from any direction.

[Veritas]

If you're going up against two or three opponents with ANY weapon, you're going to die.  You're more likely to die against autos though, since there are many more shots to dodge.  Oh, and guess what?  After the three auto users kill you, they still have shots left.  If you went up against three M79s and died, your team would suddenly have three enemies coming at them that can't fire.  Easy kills.  And of course, this gives more support to the idea that the M79 is underpowered.  Sure, one on one, it may seem overpowered.  But in a team game (you continue to bring up CTF), the M79 is at quite a disadvantage.

You seem to be missing the point where I keep saying I don't think the m79 is overpowered in pubs. I think its annoyance is caused by overuse. If I was killed by 3 guys with a mp5, and AK, and an m79, then there would be no reason for me to be annoyed at the m79 user. If instead its 3 guys using m79s, as often is the case in pubs, then the m79 gets annoying. I don't think thats too hard to understand.

Edit for gramm0r :V

[refsil]

well.M79 or the sniper rifle is annoying.that is.but they are NOT overpowered.they maybe overused.(I often play my mod),but what does it say?Overused=overpowered?how interesting.Any weapon can be deadly if used right.M79 and M82A1 are powerful&easy to use, so many use them.They can kill you in 1 hit, but havent you think when they DONT hit you?if a M79 or M82A1 miss,it almost equal to death.A skilled one can choose weapons for different stage,and someone always use M79 at the same time.M82A1 good for long range,M79 good for small room,autos good for mid-range and 1 v 2 or 3.that's just their advantages.If you think a weapon has advantage so it is unbanlanced or overpowered,hmm..... you 白痴.

As for Knife,I just want to say:how much time do you need to change to it and throw?it is enough to let almost any weapon to kill(through minigun,pistol and LAW cant).

[Sytrus]

M79 and M82A1 are powerful&easy

What a horrendous lie, wrapped in non-usement of the spacebar.

[soulblade]

I think the main issue with m79 is it's overuse in public servers.
I've also noticed that a high percentage of players with the default soldat (i.e. helmet, default colours etc) use the m79.

This shows that most of the new players use m79 (and they can do pretty well too).

So surely there has got to be something with the m79 that makes it more popular than the other guns and that must be some kind of balance error?

[[Gunstar]]

I think the main issue with m79 is it's overuse in public servers.

I notice a more liberal use of the ruger in realistic pubs and a much lower frequency of m79er's as well. But yes, in unrealistic (which I tend to avoid) many new players are lured by the idea of a potential instant/multi kill coupled with a decent reload and high velocity (not to mention the big bang noise!) weapon from heaven (This is purely speculation from a new players point of view).
 
Yes, plenty of enemies wielding m79's attempting a zerg will possibly frustrate any experienced player but...It's easily countered, just remember what each weapons strength's/weakness's are, m79's are one shot thrill weapons, take advantage of a reloading m79er. Jump in the air and fight him, don't be vulnerable to splash damage on the ground, avoid short enclosed tunnels, treat an m79er like a spas user in some respects.

 If your being rushed the enemy could become your ally if they fire into each other by accident, jumping and jetting up will also avoid a lot of the shots due to gravity being on your side (If you jump early enough). In conclusion, there is no solution because there is no problem.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

So surely there has got to be something with the m79 that makes it more popular than the other guns and that must be some kind of balance error?

It's been discussed over the course of at least 25 pages.  There should be a rule that new people have to read the discussions before they post something they think is completely original and profound.

[soulblade]

It's been discussed over the course of at least 25 pages.

Actually this particular topic is only 4 pages long so it is you that needs to follow the rule that you just made up.
If you were referring to the other topic that is about 25 pages long then don't complain to me, ask the moderators to lock one of these topics or something so that we are forced to only post/read one topic.

Yes it has already been said there is an overuse by using the m79, but there is also other issues that has been raised that are to do with the overpowering of the weapon (even someone suggested 2 quick shots rather than one which imo would ruin the gun); i was just stating my opinion that the main issue is the overuse and that i'm 'for' the motion of some kind of change to the m79.
I think that this balance shouldn't just be decided by you and a few others, i think everyone should be allowed to write their opinion here on what they think about m79 (in a balance sense).
And thats merely what i'm doing.

Furthermore, the reason i want a change to m79 isn't because "OMFGZ i got Pwnzored by them yesterday" (not true) but because i don't want new players to go on a public server and get killed very easily by other new players and then leave soldat. The weapons should be balanced so that new players can pick up any gun and kill other players with a similar amount of difficulty for each weapon.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

It's been discussed over the course of at least 25 pages.

Actually this particular topic is only 4 pages long so it is you that needs to follow the rule that you just made up.
If you were referring to the other topic that is about 25 pages long then don't complain to me, ask the moderators to lock one of these topics or something so that we are forced to only post/read one topic.

Did I say "This particular topic is 25 pages long" or did I say "There has been discussion about M79 balance for at least 25 pages"? Anyway, your point is invalid, since you've demonstrated that you don't read the topics anyway.  Locking one won't force you to read the other; in fact, you're probably likely to miss some good points in the locked topic.  My point was that if you're going to add your input to a discussion, you should know what's been said and what hasn't.  How do you think the other thread hit 21 pages? It's because people don't bother to read earlier posts, so they bring up the same points and get refuted the same way.  You get people like this guy:

I couldnt be bothered reading all 18 pages so i read the first and hears my opinion.

Hey, that was profound! Your uneducated opinion means so much to me!

Furthermore, the reason i want a change to m79 isn't because "OMFGZ i got Pwnzored by them yesterday" (not true) but because i don't want new players to go on a public server and get killed very easily by other new players and then leave soldat. The weapons should be balanced so that new players can pick up any gun and kill other players with a similar amount of difficulty for each weapon.

Anyone with half a brain should be able to say, "Hey, you know what? This game has been out for several years.  If the M79 is really overpowered, something would have been done to fix it.  I guess I'm doing something wrong."  And that's really all there is to it.  It should be pretty obvious that if someone is wielding a GRENADE LAUNCHER, you don't attack by running STRAIGHT AT IT.  You know, at one time I thought the M79 was overpowered too.  I'm sure everyone has, at one time or another.  But instead of complaining, I tried it out and learned its limitations.  I've said it many times before, but since no one seems to read the old threads, I'll just repeat it.

The effectiveness of the M79 is almost solely determined by the target.

Simple translation: people who run at an M79 die.  People who stay away live.  The reasoning for this is simple as well.  A short range, one hit kill weapon is going to dominate at close range.  There's no question about it.  A long range attack will be effective against a short range weapon.  I don't think anyone will dispute that.

These concepts are simple, even obvious.  But if new players quit instead of taking the time to figure this stuff out, all the better.  Stupid people are only good for targets, and I guarantee they'll whine the entire time.

[Drakor]

I agree, and yet I disagree at the same time... While the M79 is easily enough outmanuvered, this is a topic about WEAPON balance, not Dodge/aim/tactics balance.

Anyone with half a brain should also be able to realise that there are a bunch of people who use it, or who think their invincible to it, as it is, and see no reason to change it, and that pretty much keeps a stalemate about the gun.

I agree with the first Idea, but not quite to the extent that was proposed. 20-30% more weapon damage would make autos very over powered... Maybe 3-5% for autos, and 7-10% for semi's?

In fact, I see no problem with increasing all damage in general... ALL the weapons except the OHK's kill very slowly, unless you hit Constantly, and get several head shots. Have you noticed how it takes 6 head shots to kill with the Steyr?

Would you object to a general improvement of all the weapons? Or are  you just fighiting against it, because of your notions. Gathers, and CW's are very very different from Pubs. Here's Hard truth Number one in pubs: M79 = Good for several quick, clean, and EASY kills. Hard truth number two is almost everyone else sucks, so that may have something to do with it, but it's still a Weapon balance thread, not a tactical balance thread.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

I agree, and yet I disagree at the same time... While the M79 is easily enough outmanuvered, this is a topic about WEAPON balance, not Dodge/aim/tactics balance.

My point is that the weapons are balanced if you know what you're doing.  What if someone had said, "I use the LAW as my primary weapon.  However, I rarely kill people, and they always kill me.  The weapons are unbalanced!"  Would you agree? Or would you say, "The LAW is a great weapon, if you know what you're doing.  You're just using it incorrectly."  Weapon balance has to account for tactics.  Balance does not mean that all weapons are equal in all situations.  Rather, it means that weapons will be good in some situations and bad in others, but overall, will be fairly equal.