Concerning the new "Anti-Spray" system added to 1.4.

[Dev1200]

Spraying is now pointless because of this.  How power is reduced by INSANE levels, 50% for 1 screen and 100% for 2 screens and over.  This degrades lots of CTF weapons, like snipers, miniguns, the m79, and automatic weapons that were MENT for long distance shooting (AK-74, AUG).

If this could be reduced, like 50% for 2 screens and over, and maybe 25% for 1 screen, would help alot of the gameplay.

I was testing this on lagrange, with 20 bots vs myself, and I sprayed a minigun, without mods.  Usually you can land about 4-6 kills, but had 0 kills.  They all rushed, then I got about 1 kill before they got me.


Would be nice if the anti-spray system was reduced, or just taken out.

[Muse]

I agree with this, mainly because of barrets. If you've ever sat up at 3 am playing R/S on lagrange you know how messed up this is.

[6th_account]

- Modified bullets (except Barrett, M79, LAW, Knife) lose 50% of power after screen distance and another 50% after 2 screens

As for autos not being as effective in long range... that's intended.

[Mr. Domino]

Spraying is now pointless because of this.  How power is reduced by INSANE levels, 50% for 1 screen and 100% for 2 screens and over.  This degrades lots of CTF weapons, like snipers, miniguns, the m79, and automatic weapons that were MENT for long distance shooting (AK-74, AUG).

There are many things worth complaining about, but this is not one of them. For one, you haven't bothered to read the change log, as you'd know that the Barret, M79, LAW, and knife are not affected by the anti-spray damage degradation system. Secondly, the AK still has longer range, more power and accuracy than, say, the MP5. It's a great feature and one of the standout improvements of 1.4.

[Dev1200]

Just saw that, I quickly read it before ^_^

But still, all the automatic weapons are torn down because of this.  Although this is just my opinion, some people like having anti-spray.

[Keron Cyst]

Spraying is now pointless because of this.

What kind of appeal is this? What if you were an injured flagger taking a tunnel on ctf_Equinox, and you got flippin' killed, and lost a potential cap, because of some completely unskilled n00b spraying a few automatic shots blindly? Spraying was never supposed to exist; the system is brilliant.

[F3nyx]

I don't quite understand the new system.  "Air resistance" has always caused bullets to slow down over distance... is this just a tweak of that system, or is there a new factor?

[fishfood]

(About Keron's post:)
IMO, stuff like this REALLY needs to be server side.  In plenty of realistic, especially Trenchwar, spraying is a perfectly viable tactic.  It's a real military tactic too.  Spray.  In a study done by the US Army in Vietnam in the 60's, sheer number of rounds fired was the only thing that noticeably raised enemy casualties.  And so the order was: "Spray."  Spray your goddamn ass of if it helps your team.  If you're an injured flagger who gets sprayed down, that's part of the game.  The other team gotcha.  Why would you pass up an opportunity to kill an escaping flagger when you can spray him anyways?

I don't get it.  Spray is part of the game, always has, both in our games and our real life conflicts.  I have no clue where you're coming from with that statement.

If this could be reduced, like 50% for 2 screens and over, and maybe 25% for 1 screen, would help alot of the gameplay.
This sounds MUCH more reasonable.
Personally though, I think that the main factor should be bullet speed.  Air resistance slows bullets, as does gravity inevitably pulling the bullet towards the earth.  It should depend on how fast the bullet is going; how much air the bullet has passed through, and thus how far away the enemy is from the gun being fired. 

F3nyx-this is an artificial system where bullet trajectory/speed is not changed, just the damage.  If the enemy is over a screen, damage is halved. 

[Hiro]

In this game if you can't see them on screen then you shouldn't shoot them (unless you just saw them run off screen, say).

Now, for all those talking about R/S game modes being affected: Realistic now has it's own weapons.ini so if you want the auto's to be better, edit it.

[chillis34]

I don't understand why the mini gun needs to be nerfed again like common take the anti spray off the mini gun that's what the damn thing is made for if i shoot up in the air with a mini gun and i rain down bullets i don't want my bullets doing .5 of what there supposed to do

[Hiro]

Dude, it's not an airstrike, no matter what you say. It's a gun, point and shoot. Geez, don't complain if it doesn't work how it shouldn't work. >_<

The system is brilliant.

[chillis34]

yo have you ever used a real mini gun man? lol its for suppressing fire

[fishfood]

In this game if you can't see them on screen then you shouldn't shoot them (unless you just saw them run off screen, say).

Now, for all those talking about R/S game modes being affected: Realistic now has it's own weapons.ini so if you want the auto's to be better, edit it.

Yeah, it should be server side at the very least.  I don't know if you can take off this whole feature by just modding the weapons.ini though.  I think it's coded a bit deeper in.

[DeMo]

the AK still has longer range, more power and accuracy than, say, the MP5.

Not to mention the selfbink has gone from -40 to -17.
All of the autos had the selfbink decreased... like the old days, you can hold your fire button pressed and have your bullets go straight to the crosshair with minor deviation.

[F3nyx]

F3nyx-this is an artificial system where bullet trajectory/speed is not changed, just the damage.  If the enemy is over a screen, damage is halved. 

Interesting.  So is the damage halved all of a sudden once the bullet passes the one-screen mark, or is it a gradual decrease?

[Laser Guy]

I totaly agree the damage/speed reduce is messed up...

[edak]

I like the new system, spray = bad.

[Therion]

(About Keron's post:)
IMO, stuff like this REALLY needs to be server side.  In plenty of realistic, especially Trenchwar, spraying is a perfectly viable tactic.  It's a real military tactic too.  Spray.  In a study done by the US Army in Vietnam in the 60's, sheer number of rounds fired was the only thing that noticeably raised enemy casualties.  And so the order was: "Spray."  Spray your goddamn ass of if it helps your team.  If you're an injured flagger who gets sprayed down, that's part of the game.  The other team gotcha.  Why would you pass up an opportunity to kill an escaping flagger when you can spray him anyways?

I don't get it.  Spray is part of the game, always has, both in our games and our real life conflicts.  I have no clue where you're coming from with that statement.

I second that.

If this could be reduced, like 50% for 2 screens and over, and maybe 25% for 1 screen, would help alot of the gameplay.
This sounds MUCH more reasonable.
Personally though, I think that the main factor should be bullet speed.  Air resistance slows bullets, as does gravity inevitably pulling the bullet towards the earth.  It should depend on how fast the bullet is going; how much air the bullet has passed through, and thus how far away the enemy is from the gun being fired.

I second that. Also, remember about mods.
Could it be turned into a speed degradation system that could be regulated from weapons.ini?
Basically, there would be a slow-down setting - one could make differen't settings for different ammo types.

[zyxstand]

spraying sucked to begin with!
There are more people dislike getting killed sprayed than there are people who enjoy spraying - reason enough to fix it!

[AsiAnToFUboY]

(About Keron's post:)
IMO, stuff like this REALLY needs to be server side. In plenty of realistic, especially Trenchwar, spraying is a perfectly viable tactic. It's a real military tactic too. Spray. In a study done by the US Army in Vietnam in the 60's, sheer number of rounds fired was the only thing that noticeably raised enemy casualties. And so the order was: "Spray." Spray your goddamn ass of if it helps your team. If you're an injured flagger who gets sprayed down, that's part of the game. The other team gotcha. Why would you pass up an opportunity to kill an escaping flagger when you can spray him anyways?

I don't get it. Spray is part of the game, always has, both in our games and our real life conflicts. I have no clue where you're coming from with that statement.

I second that.

If this could be reduced, like 50% for 2 screens and over, and maybe 25% for 1 screen, would help alot of the gameplay.
This sounds MUCH more reasonable.
Personally though, I think that the main factor should be bullet speed. Air resistance slows bullets, as does gravity inevitably pulling the bullet towards the earth. It should depend on how fast the bullet is going; how much air the bullet has passed through, and thus how far away the enemy is from the gun being fired.

I second that. Also, remember about mods.
Could it be turned into a speed degradation system that could be regulated from weapons.ini?
Basically, there would be a slow-down setting - one could make differen't settings for different ammo types.

Third that :-D

[Nfsjunkie91]

yo have you ever used a real mini gun man?

Have you?

[Demonic]

Haha.

Sit around children: I will tell you a story. A story set in a time after 1.2.1, when the era of automatics began: the bink factor was introduced, and people started a new tactic, called 'Spraying'. Spraying was done by two or more players with automatics, completely hailing a route of a map with bullets, shredding all opposition easily, without any real effort.

Spraying was labeled lame, and continued to scourge Soldat for versions long: people who practiced it eventually became the best players out there, who couldn't be stopped, with the phenomenon bursting into the Soldat World Cup, where a band of previously noname players, the Slovakian united sprayed their way into the finals, only getting out-warped and sprayed narrowly by Poland.

This time, we beta testers thought otherwise: spraying had to come to an end. The sole reigning of teamed-up automatics is over, as the new balance and anti spray allows other gun users to stand up against such lame behaviour.

But spraying isn't gone children, oh no. It just takes effort now. You can still shred the enemy from afar, either with your teammate or alone: it just takes practice and skill now. How do I know this? I'm a sprayer myself. I've always been, deep down in my heart, and later on, carrying the name with full chest.

Or in short: if you can't spray, you seriously suck.

[chillis34]

actualy yes ive fire a few rounds out of a helicopter small mini gun but it was a mini gun my dads in the army and i got to shoot targets the kickback is extream

[Keron Cyst]

... sheer number of rounds fired was the only thing that noticeably raised enemy casualties.  And so the order was: "Spray."  Spray your goddamn ass of if it helps your team.  If you're an injured flagger who gets sprayed down, that's part of the game.  The other team gotcha.  Why would you pass up an opportunity to kill an escaping flagger when you can spray him anyways?

Why? Soldat is not real life military. Soldat may be about tactics but it is also about SKILL. Spraying takes NO skill at all and is totally lame. If you do not believe me, explain this:

yo have you ever used a real mini gun man? lol its for suppressing fire

... and then, go explain why servers disable the Minigun. Eh?

Balance is more important than real-world statistical accuracy.

[mxyzptlk]

The minigun isn't balenced right.

Suggestions:
Make it so that you can only fire it crouched or prone.
Increase Damage.
Reduce rate of fire.
Increase accuracy.
Reduce selfbink.
Give it a TINY bit of recoil in normal (because, although you are crouched/proned, as chills said, "The kickback is extream"), but keep the same in realistic.

This would make it easier and harder to use at the same time, enough to balance it out.

[chillis34]

mxy i love your idea it would give it the fire power it needs plus it would make the user vulnerable anotherthing to good idea would be less prepulsion i dont remember when shooting the mini gun the heli being pushed by it

[Monkeyspank]

I agree it looses too much power. this makes it no reason to choose AK over mp5 for example

[fishfood]

Servers disable the minigun because it lags when it's default.  You can barely spray with the Minigun anyways, too much bink.  The Minimi is much more effective spray gun.

I don't even know how to argue your other points, they're so mundane.

[valion]

i think it should be less sevier, for some game types spraying comes in handy (zombie and Inf). it keeps peoples heads down and cuts up bots. but now everyone just walks through it. if your good with a ruger you predict enemy movements when off the screen allowing you to bring down an EFC just in time, but now the bullets do frak all after going a screens length.

[Ziem]

I like the new system... I use Styer, DEagles, Ak, Barret<T>, Ruger ... I usually "sprayed" enemy base, which causes a lot of whine <and kicks > Now spraying is toned down, still useful, but not as annoying as it was before.

Anti Spray ROX

[Pyroguy]

I'm going to stick with my normal arguement. Spraying "problems" are caused by bad map design, and bink. The actual power of the auto shouldn't decrease over distance. Just it's bink. It's unfortunate that a lot of default maps are really not good maps at all. Automatics are for longer range shooting, their power shouldn't be degraded to do this.

[SirJamesaford]

Spraying isnt so bad in this version just a little different.  And (like camping) its always gonna be around.  But do you know why?  Becuase its an effective way to pin down your enemy and wounding countless "rushers" (who, by the way, are the real noobs of the game.)

So, in conclusion, spraying may be "lame" but youll only let the sprayers know there "lame" when theyve killed u from afar.  Which i think was there plan all along.

[Will]

Could it be turned into a speed degradation system that could be regulated from weapons.ini?
Basically, there would be a slow-down setting - one could make differen't settings for different ammo types.

Imagine the posibilites with that. With negative values you could make it so the bullets get more damage over time, similiar as to how the healing with negative values work.

[InstaJip]

I would take realism over balance any day. Plus the balance is bad in the first place, lol. But this is online so balance is a must.

Yeah disble minigun if you want it to go, bye but its for spraying, simple as that, and it so far is not.(In Soldat.

[F3nyx]

Repeating this question cause nobody seems to know:

Does damage go instantly from 100% to %50 once the bullet passes the one-screen-width mark, or is it a gradual change?

[6th_account]

Instantly, else it would change too much.

[Atomic Hype]

Spraying is now pointless because of this.  How power is reduced by INSANE levels, 50% for 1 screen and 100% for 2 screens and over.

Don't feel like reading this thread, but two screens takes 50% of the 50%.

So it's more like you're only doing 1/4th of the damage two screens away.

[F3nyx]

Instantly, else it would change too much.

It'd be pretty strange if the bullet went from doing full damage one instant, to only half as much the next instant.  A gradual reduction would be far more consistent.

You could create an exponential equation for bullet damage reduction so that it would do 50% damage at one screen, and 25% at two screens.  I don't know if MM did this or not, but it would be quite easy:

Code: [Select]

damage(final) = damage(initial) * 0.5 ^ (% of screen-width traveled)

[Magic Odd Effect]

Read the Soldat Wiki.

http://wiki.soldat.nl/Spraying

Well, the old article said what I want to say.

Spraying doesn't need to be removed. It's part of the game, and I don't mind being killed by it, because it's a fair tactic.

It is balanced like this: You have the chance of damaging the enemy before they get to you, and therefore having a better chance when they come closer. You can also keep them behind cover so your buddies can rush.
When opposing it: The sprayer's position becomes EXTREMELY obvious. Therefore, a good Barretter can take him out without even using the scope. Also, if you're in a tunnel, just get out of there. Don't try going down a route where a sprayer is, if it's a tunnel. Rather, try to sneak up behind him, if it's possible. Or, have a buddy create a distraction for you, and eliminate him.
It's a completely fair tactic. It's also useful. However, it does leave you vulnerable. VERY vulnerable. Because the other team now knows where you are. That=BAD.

I'd rather have the anti-spray thing decreased, or removed altogether.

[VirtualTT]

Spray is part of the game. I have never seen player with good spraying skill that didn't like it... The problem here isn't spray, the problem is that default maps are highly unbalanced. Usually there is no cover like in that tunnel on Equinox, or huge vacuum like on b2b or Equinox... no place to hide, no chance to avoid spray. Stupid small crates are only used for nade-jumps... Example of how this could be solved: lower tunnel on ctf Provance - it isn't straight like guts, and it has some working anti-spray cover. The amount of anti-spray measures is ridiculous... Long range spray weapons like minimi or Styer lost a lot of their individuality... Now even in realistic you can stand under the rain of bullets without getting any considerable damage... Ec servers stats show that new anti-spray measures are really too large. Highly balanced tw maps show how various gameplay can be, not just stupid rushing forward and shooting enemy in the face... If spray was balanced on defalut maps it didn't cause so many wrangles...
I think lowering of bullet speed is enough...
Well if all other measures will be still kept it would be nice to have option to tune them...

Spraying is now pointless because of this.

What kind of appeal is this? What if you were an injured flagger taking a tunnel on ctf_Equinox, and you got flippin' killed, and lost a potential cap, because of some completely unskilled n00b spraying a few automatic shots blindly? Spraying was never supposed to exist; the system is brilliant.

This is typical noobish whining... Good player should say *I didn't  dodge it*... 0 respect for Keron from now on...

[Dev1200]

Concerning chillis34 about him actually "shooting a minigun"

actualy yes ive fire a few rounds out of a helicopter small mini gun but it was a mini gun my dads in the army and i got to shoot targets the kickback is extream

Right..  I wasn't aware that the army had a "take your son in a helicopter and let him fire a minigun randomly" day..



Anyway, I see your point about how it sucks, but think S.T.A.L.K.E.R.  You shoot randomly at where a sniper is (say you just saw one), and you shoot at that spot so that he doesn't snipe you.  It's called cover fire..  I am completely aware that this isn't stalker, I'm just trying to give you an idea ;]


Also, miniguns are really tuned down because of this, as I said before.  In trenchwar, the minigun is pure suppressing fire.  You can't really go up to someone and shoot them.. unless your 1337 ;]