Bash Pit

[VijchtiDoodah]

http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=15493.msg175521#msg175521

Perhaps it's wrong of me to pretend like I speak for all the mods, but I try to ease what problems I see when nobody else is posting.  I don't think anyone would complain that it's wrong to tell them to say what they have to say and that we'll listen but not necessarily agree, but I can see why some might be upset at me taking liberties when I shouldn't.

With that out of the way, I'd like to talk about the Bash Pit.  I know, as much as anyone else, that it can cause problems and be a bit of an infection that we don't need; however, it may be appropriate to give it a chance as long as we properly moderate everything else.

All we'd need to do is start a one or two month testing period -- tell the forumers exactly what we're doing: that it's only temporary to see how it goes and that they certainly cannot spam up the rest of the forums now that they have a place to do so.

If it works out, wonderful.  We've made the forums better for once.  If not, the sad part is that it's a bit like dangling food in front of a dog and never letting it actually taste any, but everyone around here has a short memory span and any damage done will be undone within a month.

In the end, the forums are either better or exactly the same.  I might say that since we effectively have nothing to lose that it's our duty to try it out for them, but that's a bit too cheesy, so let's just say that we owe them a chance to prove that they can do it right.

For anyone who might reply that they know exactly how it will turn out: you don't.  The forums have changed considerably since we last had a Bash Pit.  This could be a truly positive thing.

[Chakra]

Well, theres things to consider here.

A bash pit would be good in order to cater for the obvious degenerates that our off-topic community appear to revolve around. This will make them happy.

On the other hand, we kinda removed this vile element in order to promote a higher grade of wit, character and intelligence. This has arguably happened, to a small degree.


Also, what effect does promoting the kind of behavior we try to stamp down on put into a single forum section have? If we can firmly illustrate that that place is their 'home' and straying out of it with the same attitude is wrong, will it actually work as such?

And, what will the bash pit actually be for? A place to post absolute arsefluid? A place to specifically indicate dislike for another (aka: bash)? An adult only area? ..do these kids really need a place just to spam utter bollocks?

I'm all for 'test-runs' ...but we gotta be clear here. You might be in for a suprise as to just how crap it can be if turns out like it was once before.

[FliesLikeABrick]

On the other hand, we kinda removed this vile element in order to promote a higher grade of wit, character and intelligence. This has arguably happened, to a small degree.

a large degree.  Go look through the old forums archive and see how much spam and stupidity was rampant on the forums.

Also, what effect does promoting the kind of behavior we try to stamp down on put into a single forum section have? If we can firmly illustrate that that place is their 'home' and straying out of it with the same attitude is wrong, will it actually work as such?

we said the exact same thing on the old forums when stuff started getting out of control.  The entire forums still were loaded with stupid crap and more insults and flaming than we've ever seen here.

And, what will the bash pit actually be for? A place to post absolute arsefluid? A place to specifically indicate dislike for another (aka: bash)? An adult only area? ..do these kids really need a place just to spam utter bollocks?

I'm all for 'test-runs' ...but we gotta be clear here. You might be in for a suprise as to just how crap it can be if turns out like it was once before.

The bash pit is a spawning area for "<this member> sucks! here is why!"  "who do you hate on the forums?!"

and other stupid threads where everyone insults eachother.  People then don't like people because of what they said, and other people see stuff going on and stupid crap said and actually start to take offense. 

The bash pit is a shithole that influences the whole forums to turn to crap.  I'll say now that if the bash pit comes back, you guys can find another admin... I'm not going to stay here and watch the same thing happen again like on the last forums.

[Graham]

Hate to generalize but I think this statement is true in some of the mods/admins minds.

http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=15493.msg175690#msg175690

[Chakra]

Can't say I liked the old bash pit either (did have its rare moments), and agree with what Bricks says (though i'm open to discussion, hence all the question marks in my post), but I do promote the idea of people openly insulting one another, albeit with a little more thought-out critique than ye olde bash pit offered.
 Entertaining, maybe, but also healthy ... i'm sure we've all had brief discussions with one another saying "god I hate that <insert name>" now and then, but never actually 'told' them. Allowing people to collect negative opinions creates and binds cliques while also informing the likes of those not appreciated to get the **** off the forums, potentially ridding vermin and the community keeping itself pure.
 ...or am I the only one that lusts for the energy and oppurtunity to deliever a payload of verbal pain to the likes of captain ben and dascoo('s hair) ?

And you do have to admit Bricks.....an improvement we may have now, but we're still lumbered with bash pit 'vets' lurking around with their sub-par wit and such in the lounge, hence that little refugee camp called admin/mod forum. We've essentially got two lounge communities going on. Newcomers and old timers with actual living brains, and a collection of twats. I think thats generally the core of the problem that concerns both sides and spawns topics like this one.

[FliesLikeABrick]

Responding to the last paragraph of your post: how does adding the bash pit help with any of that?  We'd just be giving them another cesspool.

[VijchtiDoodah]

I just checked the last 10 threads of the archived Lounge and I can't say I saw much spam.  In fact, if that's any representation of what the forums were like while we had a Bash Pit, I'd gladly take the old forums over the new -- people were writing thoughtful responses devoid of much stupidity.

To be honest, I never really payed much attention to the quality of the forums back then and always assumed that Flies was accurate in stating that it was filled with spam, but from what I've seen he was dead wrong.

Check it out yourself, newest threads are at the bottom of the page.

[ElephantHunter]

I just checked the last 10 threads of the archived Lounge and I can't say I saw much spam.  In fact, if that's any representation of what the forums were like while we had a Bash Pit, I'd gladly take the old forums over the new -- people were writing thoughtful responses devoid of much stupidity.

To be honest, I never really payed much attention to the quality of the forums back then and always assumed that Flies was accurate in stating that it was filled with spam, but from what I've seen he was dead wrong.

Check it out yourself, newest threads are at the bottom of the page.

Vijcht, are you looking at the same posts I'm looking at? The newest threads consist of mostly one-liners, smileys, bashing and swearing.

[Graham]

I took a look at the bash pit and to be honest I think the current lounge is a great mixture of the the old lounge and the bash pit. We have silly threads along side of serious discussions. All the time void of such topics like:

http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=8409
http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=8934
http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=8953

[VijchtiDoodah]

Vijcht, are you looking at the same posts I'm looking at? The newest threads consist of mostly one-liners, smileys, bashing and swearing.

No, that was written while I read the first ten threads of the Lounge, then I realized my mistake, changed some of the words around, read the last ten threads, and began to seriously edit my post.  I should've just deleted it.

Yeah, the forums were stupid.  I think I've just changed my mind.

[FliesLikeABrick]

I took a look at the bash pit and to be honest I think the current lounge is a great mixture of the the old lounge and the bash pit. We have silly threads along side of serious discussions. All the time void of such topics like:

http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=8409
http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=8934
http://archive.forums.soldat.pl/topic.php?topic_id=8953

Thank you, I agree entirely.


Are we in agreement then, or are there still people who think that we should bring it back (after reading this whole thread, not just coming here to post)

[ElephantHunter]

I've been looking around at some other forums, and this forum is moderated very lightly... especially so because this is an official forum.

[FliesLikeABrick]

I've been looking around at some other forums, and this forum is moderated very lightly... especially so because this is an official forum.

I'm not sure what prompted you to say that, elaborate?

[ElephantHunter]

I've been looking around at some other forums, and this forum is moderated very lightly... especially so because this is an official forum.

I'm not sure what prompted you to say that, elaborate?

Other active forums that have been around for quite some time are more strict than ours. I seriously don't think we're at risk of anything by not having a bashpit.

[FliesLikeABrick]

Ah, ok, gotcha

[Graham]

We need a final statement on this subject given. We need to figure out any side of the argument we haven't debated and toss them all together in a topic for all to see and be linked to later on if someone brings up this crappy subject again.

[FliesLikeABrick]

We need a final statement on this subject given. We need to figure out any side of the argument we haven't debated and toss them all together in a topic for all to see and be linked to later on if someone brings up this crappy subject again.

doesn't that require us all agreeing on something first?

Do we all agree that the Bash pit is gone for good?  Please post to say "yes" or "no"

[ElephantHunter]

Yes 

[Graham]

I thought everyone that posted in this topic as in agreement. Yes its gone and will not come back.

[Chakra]

Yes, but i'm open to ideas towards an 'alternate' that'd allow people to simply vent at one another.

[FliesLikeABrick]

Yes 

the only reason I asked for a clear answer is to find out whether anyone has any remaining concerns and whether or not it is safe to tell the members "the moderators all agree that ...."

edit: is there any reason we shouldn't just move this thread into FN&S and let the public see our discussion, rather than make a new thread that doesn't show them exactly what we talked about?

[Graham]

Yes, but i'm open to ideas towards an 'alternate' that'd allow people to simply vent at one another.

Well can't we just let them pm it out? Saves the forums the drama and it gets resolve...

Anyway Flab move it or make a new topic if you like, just as long as it gets done.

[FliesLikeABrick]

moving it is

[mxyzptlk]

A suggestion is wanted?

In several forums I have gone to, there is a single thread called "The Spam Thread." Simply, it is a place where people talk about their lives, whats going on and anything else that pops in their mind without having to make a separate topic.
This thread is still moderated, and is fairly flame free, thanks to it's moderation.

This would be much easier to manage IMO than an entire forum. It could simply be a sticky in the lounge.

[iDante]

I would support that mxyzptlk... I was thinking a bit ago about having a forum where people could each have one thread that would be like an extended profile, where they could post anything they want. Just an idea though.

[mxyzptlk]

Here is an example.

http://forum.animexpansion.com/index.php?showtopic=11398&st=0

On this forum alone, there have been over 5 iteration of it that I know of.

[Captain Ben]

bashpit guys, comon EVEN A TRIAL

[SirJamesaford]

Isnt "the spam thread" that you speak of our equivalent to "the lounge"? 

I see no real need for a bash pit... Im sure captain ben haves wet dreams of one tho.

[a-4-year-old]

I just checked the last 10 threads of the archived Lounge and I can't say I saw much spam.  In fact, if that's any representation of what the forums were like while we had a Bash Pit, I'd gladly take the old forums over the new -- people were writing thoughtful responses devoid of much stupidity.

To be honest, I never really payed much attention to the quality of the forums back then and always assumed that Flies was accurate in stating that it was filled with spam, but from what I've seen he was dead wrong.

Check it out yourself, newest threads are at the bottom of the page.

Vijcht, are you looking at the same posts I'm looking at? The newest threads consist of mostly one-liners, smileys, bashing and swearing.

Wasn't that when everyone was pissy about the bashpit being mercilessly slaughtered? Remember all these people freaked out and were all like "OH EMM GEE I QIT"

[DePhille]

Due to exams I didn't have the chance to post in this topic while it was still in the private area, I hope it still gets read.

We need to think outside the box here. We're all talking about THE bashpit but let's just turn that into A bashpit.
You could, for example, set up a gateway page before you can access a Bashpit, so users would have to agree to enter it. Another reason would be to set up rules for them, rather than having no rules, in contrary to many people's opinions, this will not be just a second Lounge. I'm quite astonished that such things haven't really been suggested or talked about here, looks like some of you don't want the extra hassle of moderating/adding the new forums and therefor don't want to give arguments for both sides of this discussion.
It's true that the general intelligence of this forum has gone up just a slight tad since the old forums but:
- There's no proof that the reason for that is the removal of the Bash Pit.
- The Lounge has degraded seriously (see my last topic on the lounge in the private area).
Those are two argments which are pretty important in almost 25% of all arguments given here.

We need to make a choice:
- Give it a shot.
- Accept the current Lounge.

Hence the "Give it a shot" option, trying something does not mean we have to do it permanently. We could change it daily or remove it within a second.
The "Accept the current Lounge" option basically means that you agree not to complain about the spam in the lounge again.

My personal preference is to "Give it a shot".
Not necessarily to test it, but to provide a hard proof to all those who strongly disagree with the removal of the Bashpit. I'm always up for new ideas, so if we decide to "Give it a shot" we should immediately add a gateway page or something else refreshing the old bashpit concept.

I won't and can't answer with black and white here (ie Yes or No) due to the lack of a valuable discussion.
Eek, that took alot of time, back to my books .

Grtz, DePhille

[mxyzptlk]

Isnt "the spam thread" that you speak of our equivalent to "the lounge"? 

I see no real need for a bash pit... Im sure captain ben haves wet dreams of one tho.

No, it is extremely more lenient. It accepts anything but flame, any time.

[FliesLikeABrick]

I think you are all missing the point of why this thread was moved from the moderator forum into the public.  This wasn't moved so that you guys could try and debate with us over whether or not the Bash Pit is coming back in any way/shape/form.  It was moved to show you guys what we were talking about and that the Bash Pit is never coming back, and to show you how  we arrived at this conclusion.

The topic isn't open for debate, this is purely to show you guys what we talked about.  I should have made that more clear when moving it.

[The Specialist]

Based on what VijchtiDoodah told me what the "bash pit" is, I highly reconmend that we don't add it to this forum.  Otherwise, what happened last time might happen again.

[Captain Ben]

you weren't even there so how would you know

there was no real reason to take it away, they just DID when they changed forums

[Blue-ninja]

If a person can learn from history, everyone here can learn from it and not repeat it.

[Captain Ben]

THERE WAS NO ACTUAL PROBLEM WITH IT

[PANZERCATWAGON]

Well I seem to remember there being the reason that it wouldn't give the right kind of impression on new-comers to the forums, or people that post here just wanting help, or something.

(but really it was basically about wanting to ban more people for spam)

[iDante]

If I may interject one idea:
Howabout if there were 2 subforums in the lounge. One would be for serious discussions and the other for random stuff (like the picture thread, hate threads, etc)
Seems like a good idea to me. Can this forum even do subforums?

[Blues]

I'm pretty sure sub-forums can be made.

[Graham]

(but really it was basically about wanting to ban more people for spam)

Our cunning plan has been foiled. Gents, its back to the drawing board as they say!

[The Specialist]

The bash pit was an unmoderated board of the old forum.  Anyone could spam, starhunt, post porn, etc, and eventually it got out of hand and spreaded throughout out to the rest of the forum.  That this the main why I don't support we bring it back to this forum, or it might happen again.

[Graham]

The bash pit was an unmoderated board of the old forum.  Anyone could spam, starhunt, post porn, etc, and eventually it got out of hand and spreaded throughout out to the rest of the forum.  That this the main why I don't support we bring it back to this forum, or it might happen again.

Post count did not increase and no they could not post porn.

[+REPredator+]

Bash pit sounds like a flame bin.. or jus a waste of space really.. glad its not here anymore

[The Specialist]

I heard they were allowed to do that.

[Graham]

I heard they were allowed to do that.

Make sure your information is solid before using it in a debate next time... cause it makes you look silly if you don't... kinda like if you went and bought a Coca-Cola product in a Pesi shirt.... silly!

[The Specialist]

Bash pit sounds like a flame bin

That's exactly what it pretty much was.

[VijchtiDoodah]

This is a snippet of my PM to The Specialist when he asked what the Bash Pit was (the rest was just an account of how and why it was left out of the new forums and why a few people are upset about it):

"[The Bash Pit] was an almost completely unmoderated part of the forums.  People were allowed to spam, flame, and basically do whatever they wanted short of posting porn and hacks.  Unfortunately, after a few years, this brought quite a bit of stupidity to the forums that spread outside the Bash Pit and infected the rest of the forums -- a legacy that continues to this day."

Sorry to have to lay it out like that, Specialist, but since I was the one who gave you the information, I didn't want everyone to think I was lying to you.

[The Specialist]

Its no problem VijchtiDoodah.

[Captain Ben]

you never experienced the full bashpit experience it was awesome

don't say anything until you've leapt right in and tried it

[frogboy]

Let it go, Ben. With the forums' community as it is now, a bash pit would be wasted on them. Hell, it was already starting to become shitty towards the end of the bash pit.

[The Specialist]

Agreed.

[FliesLikeABrick]

If I may interject one idea:
Howabout if there were 2 subforums in the lounge. One would be for serious discussions and the other for random stuff (like the picture thread, hate threads, etc)
Seems like a good idea to me. Can this forum even do subforums?

you're missing the point.  We don't want a bash pit type of forum, regardless of whether it is a full forum or a subforum.