Perfect Weapons Balance?

[Coolio]

I don't think there can be a perfect weapons balance because right now we are trying to find a better balance for the m79. But as soon as the M79 problem goes away we will start fighting about the ruger or the chainsaw or the knife or barett. As soon as we make it hard to kill with one weapon new people will use the next strongest weapon. So as soon as the M79 problem goes away then new people will use the ruger. Then as soon as the ruger problem goes away,new people will use the chainsaw and so on. So i think the only good balance woould be to have each weapon exactly the same, which wouldn't make the game fun.This is why when they created the forums they had a weapons balance section because they probably knew there can't be a perfect weapons balance. Lol.

[SirJamesaford]

Add a delay to the m79 and for the people complaining about the ruger make it just a tad bit harder to aim while moving... that along with what we have now with the remaining guns is your "near perfect weapon balance in the eyes of one Sir Jamesaford P." lol

[Coolio]

Well yeah that would work but then i just know it people will complain about the saw. The saw has 150 ammo and as soon as you run it into someone they die instantly.

[SirJamesaford]

Yea but the saw in so easy to combat... just back up and shoot the hell out of him lol.

[Twistkill]

There is one very important factor that a lot of people do not consider when saying what is or what is not balanced:

The maps.

The weapon balance heavily depends on the maps, because some weapons have longer range than others, or some have short ranges but make up for it for devastating close combat capability. The weapons are all balanced, but the maps are what determine your choices. You obviously cannot choose the same weapon for every map, can you?  Well, you could, but it wouldn't be very effective and if you only know how to use one weapon, then you're pretty much ****ed. (Sans Deagle only users. Yes, that's you, Rai. )

The M79 is the perfect example here. Let's say you're in a CTF server, the map is ctf_Run. Because this map is so wide and open, the M79 can sometimes literally fall short if an EFC is running away quickly enough. There is boosting, but that hurts you a bit, and besides, that's not very relevant right now.

The Ruger, Barrett, AK, or Minimi all have the advantage here. Keep approximately 3/4 or more of a screen away from an M79 user and you've got him right where you want him. (Or possibly her.) And, if you gain some altitude along with this range... they will struggle just to reach your jet flames. (This scenario also applies to the Spas)

Now, let's say the upcoming map is ctf_Nuubia. See, this is where the entire balancing issue comes in - now you have much less space to maneuver, and the M79 has a good advantage here. However, this also means that the MP5, Deagles, and Spas have the advantage here as well. Okay, so maybe you'll get splattered around a few times, and so maybe there isn't enough room to dodge an M79 shell - Just wait until the next map that is larger.

Another important factor that influences the weapon balance that people tend to ignore is the game mode.

The primary game mode that the weapon balance is centered on is CTF. The majority of the clan community are CTF clans, and a lot of the skilled players are in those CTF clans. Let's point out some differences here:

In CTF:

- You know where your opponents are coming from most of the time, or at least you have a general idea, and the setup is typically a few different routes leading directly into the other team's base. This applies to both teams, actually...

- A typical clanwar/scrim or gather is 3 on one team versus 3 on the other.

- The primary goal of CTF is to well, get the flag. However, you still must use your weapons effectively, so this is where the issue of balancing the weapons for EFCs come in.

The second most popular game mode is most likely Deathmatch. There are a few less servers than CTF, there are no DM clans that I know of, and a lot of people I know say they hate DM, unfortunately. Now, this is what make the weapon balance different from a CTF game:

- This is every man for himself, and the average amount of people in a DM server is about 8 to 12 people, compared to the typical scrimmage match that is 3 on one team vs another 3. No teams or alliances are considered. (Well, you can ally with someone, but this isn't "official", like your scores are still seperate, you can still kill each other, etc.)

- You do not know where any of the people are coming from, (A few exceptions such as listening to the sound effects closely) because the setup of a DM map is much different - it is more rounded or oval shaped with no one taking over any particular part of the map unlike CTF where there are "bases" or "zones".

- The location where you spawn is set by spawn points, however, each time you spawn it is at one of the spawn points chosen completely randomly. This is much different from CTF - you know the other team will always spawn in the same place.

So as you may hopefully see, there will always be an issue of weapon balance because of the maps and the game modes. We cannot do much to change this. Some people think that a weapon balance is where all of the weapons can beat any of the other weapons equally in every situation, which is quite silly, for one, and two, it would require all of the guns to be quite similar other than a few little issues. We can not realistically make a perfect weapon balance because there are too many factors other than just the guns themselves to consider.

[SirJamesaford]

Eh i use the mp5 for every map all the time... (used to be the aug but not with this current balance) even in ct_run i do pretty good with it...  But i do agree that it depends on game mode but i only play flag based games so thats all i can comment on.

IMO mp5 and LAW is all ya need lol  well its all i need anyway.

[Coolio]

There is one very important factor that a lot of people do not consider when saying what is or what is not balanced:

The maps.

The weapon balance heavily depends on the maps, because some weapon have longer range than others, or some have short ranges but make up for it for devastating close combat capability. The weapons are all balanced, but the maps are what determine your choices. You obviously cannot choose the same weapon for every map, can you? Well, you could, but it wouldn't be very effective and if you only know how to use one weapon, then you're pretty much ****ed. (Sans Deagle only users. Yes, that's you, Rai. )

The M79 is the perfect example here. Let's say you're in a CTF server, the map is ctf_Run. Because this map is so wide and open, the M79 can sometimes literally fall short if an EFC is running away quickly enough. There is boosting, but that hurts you a bit, and besides, that's irrelevant at this point in time. The Ruger, Barrett, AK, or Minimi all have the advantage here. Keep approximately 3/4 or more of a screen away from an M79 user and you've got him right where you want him. (Or possibly her.) And, if you gain some altitude along with this range... they will struggle just to reach your jet flames. (This scenario also applies to the Spas)

Now, let's say the upcoming map is ctf_Nuubia. See, this is where the entire balancing issue comes in - now you have much less space to maneuver, and the M79 has a good advantage here. However, this also means that the MP5, Deagles, and Spas have the advantage here as well. Okay, so maybe you'll get splattered around a few times, and so maybe there isn't enough room to dodge an M79 shell - Just wait until the next map that is larger.

Another important factor that influences the weapon balance that people tend to ignore is the game mode.

The primary game mode that the weapon balance is centered on is CTF. The majority of the clan community are CTF clans, and a lot of the skilled players are in those CTF clans. Let's point out some differences here:

In CTF:

- You know where your opponents are coming from most of the time, or at least you have a general idea, and the setup is typically a few different routes leading directly into the other team's base. This applies to both teams, actually...

- A typical clanwar/scrim or gather is 3 on one team versus 3 on the other.

- The primary goal of CTF is to well, get the flag. However, you still must use your weapons effectively, so this is where the issue of balancing the weapons for EFCs come in.

The second most popular game mode is most likely Deathmatch. There are a few less servers than CTF, there are no DM clans that I know of, and a lot of people I know say they hate DM, unfortunately. Now, this is what make the weapon balance different from a CTF game:

- This is every man for himself, and the average amount of people in a DM server is about 8 to 12 people, compared to the typical scrimmage match that is 3 on one team vs another 3. No teams or alliances are considered. (Well, you can ally with someone, but this isn't "official", like your scores are still seperate, you can still kill each other, etc.)

- You do not know where any of the people are coming from, (A few exceptions such as listening to the sound effects closely) because the setup of a DM map is much different - it is more rounded or oval shaped with no one taking over any particular part of the map unlike CTF where there are "bases" or "zones".

- The location where you spawn is set by spawn points, however, each time you spawn it is at one of the spawn points chosen completely randomly. This is much different from CTF - you know the other team will always spawn in the same place.

So as you may hopefully see, there will always be an issue of weapon balance because of the maps and the gamemodes. We cnanot do much to change this. Some people think that a weapon balance is where all of the weapons can beat any of the other weapons equally in every situation, which is quite silly, for one, and two, it would require all of the guns to be quite similar other than a few little issues. We can not realistically make a perfect weapon balance because there are too many factors other than just the gun themselves to consider.

Well you owned me. But there are some weapons that are so much easier to use than others like M79. Wouldn't people just find another weapon to use for every map. Like the barrett. The barrett might be used on long maps but its also used on small maps because it still lets you see more than you should with the scope. And as soon as you see someone coming at you, you kill them. Plus if the weapons balance would of probably been balanced by now if the weapons could be balanced, i mean Soldat was realsed in 2002.

Date Posted: July 09, 2007, 01:12:23 AMIsn't there always going to be that one weapon that every new person uses on every map since its so strong?

[haha]

Well you owned me. But there are some weapons that are so much easier to use than others like M79. Wouldn't people just find another weapon to use for every map. Like the barrett. The barrett might be used on long maps but its also used on small maps because it still lets you see more than you should with the scope. And as soon as you see someone coming at you, you kill them. Plus if the weapons balance would of probably been balanced by now if the weapons could be balanced, i mean Soldat was realsed in 2002.

DISagree.
for every weapon there is another weapon that has advantages over it. if u know how to use every weapon as good as ur best weapon, IMO ur pretty good.(unless u suck at ur best weapon too). so to that point, the weapons are quite balanced now already.
if some one uses desert eagles, use an auto and bink him away
if some one uses hkmp5, steye aug, or ak, or fn minimi,use perhaps the m79 or the minigun.
if some one uses the spas, use a minigun too and dont let him get close.
if some one uses the ruger, again use autos.
if some one uses m79, use a mingun and shoot him so he cant move closer to him. or fn minimi/ barrett. if u say m79 are unstoppable in tunnels, use a law and bounse-shoot it to kill him.
if some one uses barrett, use an auto and spray him from far. especially good in tunnels.
if some one uses minigun, barrett him, they usually dont spray and cant spray as fast as others cuz they have start up time.

probably, IMO the only reason why people complain about unfair guns in game( unless they are hacking, of cause!) is because one gun cannot have advantages over all guns. and they are lazy to change guns that can win it over. or cant use that weapon.

now, if u say that the barrett is gay because once u come into sight u are killed, and have no space to spray him( in inf_outpost low below the bridge nearer to bravo side), use ur mind power. u can pretend to go down, but in the last milli second jet up and make him shoot. this is cuz barrett has a start up time and most people hold their fire button in anticipation that you will come down. or u can taunt him, like.... talking in team chat " go back stab him", or "LOOK BEHIND YOU!", or better, say in team chat that u are afk, but stay there. they may come close and there's ur chance

[SpiltCoffee]

Two things...

Deagles have no bink.

You can use a LAW and fire it down the tunnel to clean it out on inf_Outpost.

[Cappy]

YEAH! Desert eagles have no bink  And they don't need it... 

[a-4-year-old]

I like how everyone with ideas for balancing involve making things worse, make it harder to aim, make it less speed, add a time delay, never making other guns better.

[Clawbug]

I like how everyone with ideas for balancing involve making things worse, make it harder to aim, make it less speed, add a time delay, never making other guns better.

It is easier to fine tune one weapon than to fine tune 9 others + secondaries.

[Coolio]

I like how everyone with ideas for balancing involve making things worse, make it harder to aim, make it less speed, add a time delay, never making other guns better.

I like how your always negative about everything.

[a-4-year-old]

I like how everyone with ideas for balancing involve making things worse, make it harder to aim, make it less speed, add a time delay, never making other guns better.

It is easier to fine tune one weapon than to fine tune 9 others + secondaries.

you still have to fine tune the other guns anyway, it's just mostly down, so by this version most of the guns suck. They are way harder to aim with then before with much more bink and movement acc, and they do a lot less damage. That and the autos have basically no counterbalance, because one shot doubles the size of a cursor with the barrett unless you can jump them so they have no time to shoot you you are screwed.

[Clawbug]

I agree with the fact that weapons are harder to aim with, which is no good really. It slows down the gameplay aspecially in CTF, to get rid of movementacc you need to stop moving. Stand still almst without any movement and then start shooting. To be an easy target for a good player, to not be able to move quickly, to have to fight same enemy many times to get to their base.

Well, actually fighting multiple times and fr longer time is a good thing.

People say that 1.2/1.2.1 had the best WM. I am here to say that those people said that because that WM made people to learn quickly. You just had to land 2 shots with deagles and that's it, enemy was dead.

Now you usually need 3 or even 4 hits, in extreme cases you need 5! (Might be caused by lag, long distance and 4 hits to legs aint killing).

So now it takes alot more skill to actually kill, and in 1v1 situations good aiming is more important than blind spraying. Learning curve is alot lower right now. I'd like to see somekind of a hybrid if these two balances. Take off the luck-based  factors (like movementacc) and make weapons a bit more stronger, so you do not need to stop when firing, and you can actually kill people in 1v2 situations if you are good.

Now in 1v2 situations you are being shot by another player for the time you kill the other, and + the time you kill the last one. Same was in 1.2.1, but it could be that these two people couldnt even hit you with deagles before you shot them down.

[a-4-year-old]

This balance doesn't really add any "skill" to shooting, you just need to know how to bypass movement acc and bink which is just really stupid. The game was more fun when you didn't jump through hoops to kill someone. It was whoever was better with their weapon, better with aim and who had better tactics and who dodged better and who knew their weapon's curve. Movement acc is just a ritual that needs to be repeated if you have any chance to kill someone.

[Clawbug]

Let's take an example. Example from the past. In 1.2.1 I sw very few one shot kills with deagles(!! YES!). To accomplish that, both victim and enemy had to have very high movement speed towards others, and victim had to be hit directly to the head. That was usually guaranteed kill.

Back then, deagles killed with 2 hits. Now, I believe it takes the 3 hits to kill with current balance, and fireinterval is changed. Also, from long ranges, it can take up to 5(!!) hits to kill, which really needs some skill rather than some lucky shots. Same goes with other weapons.

Thats why 1.2 and 1.2.1 versions WM was told to be good, because you could become good alot faster. You did nt need to be THAT accurate to kill, because it took less hits to kill -> less skill to kill with primary weapon.

[a-4-year-old]

no less skill, because the other guy can kill you just as fast.

[Clawbug]

no less skill, because the other guy can kill you just as fast.

Skill is not something between two players.

Hitting 5 times is harder than hitting twice. Having to hit 5 times will take lucky noobs out and will let those skilled people on the shine.

It wont make you any less skilled if you lose 30-0 to a better player, or if you win some noob 30-0. You are as skilled in both situations, but eh opponent's skill is varying, not yours.

[-Major-]

well in realsitc mode minimi needs a nerf. it should be less damage after all this is a pinne weapon and for binking barretters. as it is now it is more powerful than steyr. also the steyr needs a nerf.

to balance a weapon movemwnt acc is a bad idea because you can get used to it. I think the balance is pretty good just that DE needs improved hit registration. I think it fails because iti s double shoot it would probobly be better to only have 1 bullet but of course with a special bullet gfx.