Ask A Christian

[Graham]

Where was the garden of eden located?

How did God make eve from Adams rib when science suggests that males evolved from mutating from females?

No clue. Evolution and creation are two totally different things...

[Mangled*]

No clue. Evolution and creation are two totally different things...

Okay... Do you believe in Evolution? Or do you think it is not compatible with religion.

[Smegma]

Where was the garden of eden located?

How did God make eve from Adams rib when science suggests that males evolved from mutating from females?

XY genes, males use to have XX then they stole the rib which looks like a \ so its XY. Get it?

[Graham]

No clue. Evolution and creation are two totally different things...

Okay... Do you believe in Evolution? Or do you think it is not compatible with religion.

No I do not believe in evolution.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Where was the garden of eden located?

How did God make eve from Adams rib when science suggests that males evolved from mutating from females?

1. Who knows? God destroyed the world with a flood.  It could be anywhere, even under the oceans.

2. Are you asking for us to explain God's methods?  How did he raise people from the dead, when science suggests that it's impossible?  Dunno, it's just one of those things.

Date Posted: July 19, 2007, 04:20:24 PM

No clue. Evolution and creation are two totally different things...

Okay... Do you believe in Evolution? Or do you think it is not compatible with religion.

At any rate, it's not compatible with the Bible.  The Bible says that God created the world in six days, not millions of years.

[Rhombus]

Well... evolution suggests this world is still being created, while it is dying... Do you believe that the modifications made to the current world, be it highways or volcanic eruptions, are in a way forced by "God", or is it caused by (wo)men, just like the world of Ultima online got too full with buildings because everyone just wanted to build?

[Twistkill]

Oh wow, I just realized my response to Vijchti has almost 850 words.  That's just sick.

http://metanet.2.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=14223

[VijchtiDoodah]

The bible is really made up of many books written by different people, all referring to this same god.  There are also other documents by historians in that time period that refer to Jesus Christ.

There are also hundreds of books that mention the Greek gods (and, perhaps, hundreds more that were lost when the Library of Alexandria was sacked...the same place where many references to the Christian bible were found), but that doesn't make them any more valid.  And as I mentioned before, there is truth mixed in -- just like any myth of belief structure (interestingly enough, Christianity has other myths mixed into it as well).

Though it was my mistake for forgetting to mention the other books and one worth looking into now as it supports my claim that Christianity is a manufactured religion.  This is what I meant when I said that the Bible was voted on: everything that went into the Bible was chosen from a pool of accounts based on each one's merits.  There are gospels, for instance, that didn't make it into the Bible, yet are just as valid as those that were accepted (gospels that describe Jesus mischievously misusing his powers, for instance). 

Is this ultimate truth?  Can you trust a source of information that was deliberately crafted from existing information, especially when the final product is flawed and contradictory?

He said christianism.
(From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianism )

Hmmm...interesting idea.  Christianity sans belief.  How is that believing in something, though?

He also said stop trying to find errors, because belief is what he's talking about.

I don't try to find errors, they find me.  I read the Old Testament, the New, and I'm working my way through the extra information that didn't make it into Christianity's important documents.  One does not need to be particularly perceptive to see glaring contradictions and faults in the Christian belief system.  Even when you ignore the pieces of Christianity that were assimilated from other religions and pretend as if there is a "pure" Christianity behind everything else, there are still plenty of faults to be found and enough questions to cast doubt on the entire affair -- enough doubt that it can be classified as a fairy tale and nothing more.

In any case, welcome to the forums.  I'll enjoy having you here (I'll make time to read that book you linked to, but the review describes it as a biased account so I'm not in any hurry).

{LAW} Gamer_2k4, I'll get to your post in a bit, I don't have enough time right now.

[VijchtiDoodah]

The main problem with religious acceptance is that our society is very materialistic.  Unless something can be physically and scientifically proven, it is brushed off as illogical, unlikely, superstition, or even simply false.

We can't prove pixies, goblins, the tooth fairy, the boogyman, Santa Claus, that storks are really the culprit behind unplanned pregnancies, elves, treefolk, the Lock Ness monster, Bigfoot, vampires, banshees, werewolves, sphinxes, chimeras...should we just assume they really exist since we have a problem of a society that depends on facts?  No, we don't.  Because we know the value of concrete facts as well as logic (which you surprisingly overlooked) and we realize that these notions are silly at best and dangerous at worst.

And despite what you may believe, there is a lot of evidence that events in the Bible DID happen, even if you chose to doubt supernatural involvement.

Let's look at this in an objective light.  We'll say that not only is there anecdotal evidence for some of the major events in the Bible, but there is scientific evidence as well.  This proves that the Bible is an accurate account of those events.  Wonderful.  It has some merit as a historical document, but that doesn't mean -- in any way (and people should be ashamed for believing this kind of backwards logic) -- that the rest of it is true.  For example, the Chronicles of Narnia has a very accurate account of the bombing of London, yet we do not also believe that there are magical alternate universes that you can travel to by using special rings, wardrobes, and paintings.

Let's also examine the fact that the Bible has many stories in common with other religions -- if these events are true, then that lends credence to those other religions as well.  Yet for some reason, you only think of your own.

But the real problem with all of this proof (valid or not), is that it obscures the fact that there is a gram of proof for every pound of counter-evidence.  You cannot focus on these small proofs and ignore the bigger picture.

When you get right down to it, though, why do you trust a man who tells you he's found the true ark by showing you man-made metals such as aluminum and titanium when those metals weren't discovered in their pure form until the 1800's?  It's a bit difficult to create a ship using material that you are neither aware of nor know how to extract from the Earth.

With study, the Bible is not just an illogical, improbable tradition.  Not only does it contain facts that were not "known" to man until recently (such as the earth being round), but it also contains prophecies that have been fulfilled, and that amount to more than random chance (someone else posted a list of these or a link to them earlier).

It is a misconception that the ancients thought the earth was flat.  They didn't.  You'd have to be very stupid not to notice the evidence (unless you lived on the plains, then you were just unlucky).  It's also worth noting that many of Nostradamus' prophecies have come true, but most people don't think much of it (and those that do are considered eccentric).  Still, I'd like to know what predictions you're talking about..

IYou said that people made up God and gave him human qualities, so they can relate to him.  At first glance, sure, it seems strange that God, the omnipotent creator of the universe, is so humanlike.  But once you think about it, you realize, How else could you describe God?

As a creature that cannot be understood either by design or by lack of evidence.  How's that?  No need to anthropomorphize.

However, by anthropomorphizing him, we can understand and begin to relate, instead of simply being told that "There's a God, and you'll never know anything about him."

Exactly!  We seek to understand nature, so we give it human qualities.  You've just described the basis of pantheism which was a precursor to your religion.  Whereas science progressed and we realized that there are rational explanations for things without the need to invoke spirits.  Religion should have died, but superstition is difficult to cure, especially when most of the population is raised believing it.

However, think about this.  Have you ever heard of the Mbuti?  Oh sure, you can READ about them in Wikipedia, or you can HEAR about them from other people, but have you ever seen them?  Have you ever been affected by any rituals they might perform?  No?  So it seems that the logical conclusion is that the don't exist.  They were simply the product of an overactive imagination.

That's right.  I'll believe it because people showed me evidence (true or not) and told me it was so.  People raised into a religion believe it because people showed them evidence (true or not) and told them it was so.

Why, then, would I believe stories of an African tribe when I have not seen them yet remain unconvinced of tales of a vindictive god whom I have not heard from?  Because it's reasonable to assume that people would be living somewhere -- I see them all around, I know we stretch from pole to pole -- but it is not reasonable to believe that a god would force people to worship him under pain of eternal torture.  He told some people?  Really?  If he's so concerned about forcing me to worship him, why didn't he tell me?  And what does he have to gain from it?  If I worship him, nothing changes except his ego.

But, of course, he's only threatening to torture me for eternity because he loves me.

It may be true that a god cannot be understood and may be torturing the majority of our species for eternity just for kicks, but then I still don't have any proof.  There are dozens of religions exactly like Christianity who say that their god is going to put me through unimaginable pain if I don't do what it says.  So who do I believe?  Oh, I'll get a funny feeling called faith and I'll just "know"?  That's odd, because I've had a funny feeling before where I just "knew" the tiles on my bathroom floor were talking to me, it was called a hallucination and ever since then I've been able to trick my mind into getting that feeling again and utterly believing anything whenever I want.  Everyone can do it, it's just not so easy to accomplish.

However, in my opinion, there is sufficient documentation and sufficient proof that God exists, even if I've never actually SEEN him.

There was once a psychological experiment conducted to test the effects of a group's beliefs on a single test subject.  The entire group was shown one line and asked to match its height to three other lines.  It turns out that if the entire group purposefully gave the wrong answer, the subject would, despite the evidence of his own eyes, agree with them and often truly believe that he gave the correct answer.

Do the people around you have an opinion that Christianity is the one true faith?  Have they allowed you to agree with them for so long that you can't see how wrong they may be?  Are you a person who, like a person who sees faces in clouds, will find evidence where there is none and ignore or downplay everything else?

[LtKillroy]

Vij, all I have to say is God fills people's lives in ways you wouldn't understand unless you were Christian. Say I'm false, dumb, naive, or w/e, I have always found htis to be true. I guess since you are unwilling to accept it, there is nothing else for me to say. Flame me all you want for saying this, you certainly can't change my mind.

[VijchtiDoodah]

Vij, all I have to say is God fills people's lives in ways you wouldn't understand unless you were Christian.

I've never disagreed that it fills a hole in people's lives.  I just happen to believe that the world would be a better place if they filled it with something more worthwhile and less likely to cause both political and societal problems.

And I would understand.  That feeling doesn't just come from Christianity.  Don't be naive.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

And I would understand.  That feeling doesn't just come from Christianity.  Don't be naive.

Ironically, there's no way for you to be right here.  Either you admit that Christianity gives a different feeling, or you prove (to him anyway) that you don't understand.

Anyway, I tend to agree with LtKillroy.  You're approaching this from the biased perspective of someone believing that religion is simply a mental creation, and therefore you assume that feelings derived from those "delusions" are similar to feelings gained from other coping/rationalization mechanisms.

I'll be brief here, but I'll pick up our essay debate tomorrow.  Assuming religion IS supernatural, and assuming you haven't experienced it, you'll never know what it feels like.  For the sake of discussion, let's say you know half of everything in the ENTIRE universe.  What justification do you have that religion doesn't fall in the other half? Let's say you knew everything in the universe.  Everything.  Does even that qualify you to speak definitively of things that transcend the universe, i.e., the supernatural? 

[VijchtiDoodah]

You're approaching this from the biased perspective of someone believing that religion is simply a mental creation, and therefore you assume that feelings derived from those "delusions" are similar to feelings gained from other coping/rationalization mechanisms.

Yes, I do.  There are only three other reasons for religion.  First, a logical one.  This cannot be the case with Christianity, though, as it requires that you ignore logic. 

Second, an instinctual one.  This is extraordinarily likely considering how easily superstitions are created.  Simple experiments have even created superstitious behavior in pigeons: give food or a gentle shock to the pigeon at random intervals and it will design a complicated dance routine involving hops, twirls, and bobs that it thinks will maximize the food it gets and minimize the shocks.  Humans are eerily similar: let them live on a planet with random natural disasters and occasional bountiful crops and they will think they are either pleasing or displeasing the gods.  Have a funny dream?  It was god.  A nightmare, the devil.  I know, I've been there.

Third, a spiritual one.  Of course, it's going to be something that cannot be measured.  It's just a funny feeling you get.  Religion is a funny feeling of wholeness.  Or it's the delusion of those who are so out of touch with their own bodies that they can't recognize a simple natural feeling and instead try to stick it to a religion made by an infallible god who can't even keep his genealogies straight or decide whether his only son is really the messiah.

Even if it's purely spiritual (a word I'm beginning to believe is a translation for "you can't disprove it, therefore it's true"), the religion is still flawed.  The spiritual feeling may be coming from your own mind or a god, but it certainly isn't from a religion filled with illogic and fairy tales (unless, of course, the miracle of a Romeo and Juliet being successfully speared onto a giant staff makes you feel tingly inside).

For the sake of discussion, [...] let's say you knew everything in the universe.  Everything.  Does even that qualify you to speak definitively of things that transcend the universe, i.e., the supernatural? 

No.  That's why I only speak definitively on the things I do know and base the rest on experience and probability.  For practical purposes, I'm not always clear on what things I do know and what things I can only speculate on, so I'll point them out: I do not know whether or not a god (or gods) exists, but I know that if it does, then it either doesn't change the world or changes it imperceptibly.  I do not know whether many of the stories in the Bible are true or not, but I do know that many are downright false and obviously so.  If god exists, I do not know whether it will torture me for eternity for not believing in it, but I do know that the probability of it doing that is very low (as are the hundreds of promises by other religions).  I do not know many secrets of the universe, but I do know that Christianity is a manufactured religion -- it has merit and logic in some of it's beliefs, but the rest is fiction.

Goodnight Gamer, we'll continue this in the morning.

[Mutzy]

In any case, welcome to the forums.  I'll enjoy having you here (I'll make time to read that book you linked to, but the review describes it as a biased account so I'm not in any hurry).

Thanks for the welcome.    (Although most of my time is taken browsing the LP101/ASF forums, and won't be around here much.)
I do hope you do check out that book. I also wouldn't mind hearing your opinions after you read it.

All I can really say is that I have my beliefs and opinions and have made my decision, you have yours.  I don't hate you because you don't follow my religion, so don't hate me because i don't follow yours (or someone elses, or nothing, for that matter.   Each to his own, basically.)

Choice of Religion is up to each individual person.  I wish you luck in your search and your decision.

Italics for emphasis, bold for editing- I missed out the most crucial part.  Late night typing  (Can't really say it too well written, so bear with me. )

We believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross to take our place, as a sacrifice for our sins, and rose again[/b] allowing us to have a personal relationship with the Lord our savior, Jesus Christ. It is his constant work in our lives, and of those around us that constantly re-affirms this belief.  It is a choice that we have made.

Whether or not you accept that, or not is up to you.

-Mutzy (btw, i am a Baptist Christian)

[mar77a]

Evolution and creation are both compatible with Chrisianity and the Bible. The Genesis is not to be taken literally, it's a religious text, not a science one. It was a book some guys wrote to explain the basic points of the relationship that exists between God and the creation, between man and women, etc.

In the life sciences, evolution is a change in the traits of living organisms over generations, including the emergence of new species. Since the development of modern genetics in the 1940s, evolution has been defined more specifically as a change in the frequency of alleles in a population from one generation to the next.In other fields evolution is used more generally to refer to any process of change over time.

God created everything (or nothing at that point maybe, who knows...the big bang?) and gave it movement. Then it started "evolving"...

[Graham]

mar77a you may say its not supposed to be taken literally but others say it is, there is just as much division on this then the tribs(pre-trib, mid-trib,post-trib)

[PANZERCATWAGON]

Can I just point out church that you've willingly admitted to being the hippy of christian beliefs?

I'm never going to let you forget that.

[Graham]

Can I just point out church that you've willingly admitted to being the hippy of christian beliefs?

I'm never going to let you forget that.

Yes, I have always thought that but never said it, if you have heard some of the crap I have heard you would say I am a hippy too...

[SirJamesaford]

Can I just point out church that you've willingly admitted to being the hippy of christian beliefs?

I'm never going to let you forget that.

Yes, I have always thought that but never said it, if you have heard some of the crap I have heard you would say I am a hippy too...

Uhhhhhhh....What?

[PANZERCATWAGON]

He's a bit fat hypocrite and his own worst nightmare.