Sicko

[Red_Dawn]

just saw Sicko what'd my you guys think?

[Graham]

Moore is an idiot. I guess I can go deeper if you really wish....

[Smegma]

A fat guy talking about health, sorry...I'll go eat my cheese calzone.

[Red_Dawn]

he made some very valid points though even though i think he went to extremes. health care SHOULD be free.

[Graham]

With free health care you get longer waits and poor service. At least with our current system you can get that necessary surgery right now, even if you have to pay for it. I do believe there is a good number of people that come from countries with free health care to America to get the surgery done even though they pay for it. I heard that doctors from other countries come to America as well but I have nothing to back that up.

[Red_Dawn]

did u SEE the movie it interviewed people in free health care places they all said u dont wait a long time plus doctors in france can afford million dollar houses with socialized medicine

[Graham]

did u SEE the movie it interviewed people in free health care places they all said u dont wait a long time plus doctors in france can afford million dollar houses with socialized medicine

No I researched outside the movie, because Moore really can not be trusted to tell the whole truth.

[VijchtiDoodah]

With free health care you get longer waits and poor service. At least with our current system you can get that necessary surgery right now, even if you have to pay for it...

The problem with that statement is that you're assuming we'd copy an existing system.  In reality, we have quite a few countries to examine and see which parts work well.  Then we'll pick, choose, and modify in order to build the best system we can.

Furthermore: who gives a shit if you have to wait extra time?  Where is that Christian ideal of helping your fellow man?  It's better to help and heal as many people as possible while sacrificing the quick service we're used to (a sacrifice, by the way, that only applies to treatments administered by specialists -- everything else ends up being the same or quicker) than to let people who aren't as fortunate as you to rot.

Michael Moore brings up very valid points, it just seems like you expect him to outline every single step and program we need in order to build a perfect system.  He doesn't do that.  He simply points out that our system is flawed and that there are better alternatives that don't involve greedy and unethical corporations and lawmakers.

[Graham]

Wait aren't as fortunate? Buddy I am one of the people that can't afford any form of surgery and I have no health care. I actually had this debate with my family earlier, Moore can bring up valid points, yes I have no doubt our system has flaws... since every system does.  I am not saying our system is perfect or anything like that. I am just saying Moore needs to shut up and let someone who can state their case without extremes or bias go at it, I just can't stand Moore is all I am saying.

[VijchtiDoodah]

I am not saying our system is perfect or anything like that. I am just saying Moore needs to shut up and let someone who can state their case without extremes or bias go at it, I just can't stand Moore is all I am saying.

Ah.  So the arguments put forth in Sicko mean nothing because they are from a biased source?

He actually made a point of stating that he didn't show alternative views because there would be no point: anyone who can consider his film with a critical eye is already aware of any arguments explaining why America's current system succeeds -- the information is constantly shown to us in the news and through the government.  He just adds the other side.

He is certainly biased, but he justifies it.  It's not like he expects you to take everything he says as the only source of information.

Edit: I need to clarify why his bias doesn't currently matter.  As a person who reads science journals regularly, I can tell you that each article is very frequently biased and for good reason.  The authors don't have time to explain every side of every argument and they expect you to do the research on your own -- it's a scientific audience, this is what they do.  Furthermore, if they're putting forth a new idea, it pays to acknowledge the other side and then give your counter-arguments.

Michael Moore treats health care in the same way.  We already have access to the opposing argument (because, until now, that's about all the information we had) and all he needs to do is show us that there are alternative views with merit so that we can potentially fix the problem.

[Graham]

No I don't think some of the points aren't valid.I don't think I said that they aren't valid anyway, I am just saying... please someone else address them... I honestly believe we have the better system currently. Which I stated last time we debated this.

[Dascoo]

With free health care you get longer waits and poor service. At least with our current system you can get that necessary surgery right now, even if you have to pay for it. I do believe there is a good number of people that come from countries with free health care to America to get the surgery done even though they pay for it. I heard that doctors from other countries come to America as well but I have nothing to back that up.

Yeah, if you think the U.S's health care system would be anything like other countries health care systems. I'd assume the Richest country in the world would put more money into there health care system then Canada which does not really have such a health care system.

Also, OF COURSE DOCTORS MOVE TO THE U.S, THEY GET PAID MORE!

HELL! Some of the money spent on the military could be re-directed to pay for Health care and make it even better!

[Red_Dawn]

With free health care you get longer waits and poor service. At least with our current system you can get that necessary surgery right now, even if you have to pay for it. I do believe there is a good number of people that come from countries with free health care to America to get the surgery done even though they pay for it. I heard that doctors from other countries come to America as well but I have nothing to back that up.

Yeah, if you think the U.S's health care system would be anything like other countries health care systems. I'd assume the Richest country in the world would put more money into there health care system then Canada which does not really have such a health care system.

Also, OF COURSE DOCTORS MOVE TO THE U.S, THEY GET PAID MORE!

HELL! Some of the money spent on the military could be re-directed to pay for Health care and make it even better!

even Cuba has free health care! the terrotrists being held at guantanamo bay get free health care! we as one of the richest western countries are the ONLY western counrty without socialized meidicine.

[a-4-year-old]

even Cuba has free health care! the terrotrists being held at guantanamo bay get free health care! we as one of the richest western countries are the ONLY western counrty without socialized meidicine.

Free does not mean good.

[Smegma]

Edit: I need to clarify why his bias doesn't currently matter.  As a person who reads science journals regularly, I can tell you that each article is very frequently biased and for good reason.  The authors don't have time to explain every side of every argument and they expect you to do the research on your own -- it's a scientific audience, this is what they do.  Furthermore, if they're putting forth a new idea, it pays to acknowledge the other side and then give your counter-arguments.

Last time I checked, the majority of the film going public, are not similar to a "scientific audience".

[Dascoo]

even Cuba has free health care! the terrotrists being held at guantanamo bay get free health care! we as one of the richest western countries are the ONLY western counrty without socialized meidicine.

Free does not mean good.

Yes it does if you put enough money into it.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Free does not mean good.

Yes it does if you put enough money into it.

Sure, but where does the money come from?  Taxes.  So basically, you're paying extra taxes to provide medical care for someone who shot himself with a crossbow, held a firework too long, smoked to the point of emphysema, or has some other completely preventable condition that you shouldn't be held accountable for.

As for the rest, like illness, that's why we have insurance.

[Dascoo]

Sorry for bumping the thread, I've been away all day

Sure, but where does the money come from?�  Taxes.�  So basically, you're paying extra taxes to provide medical care for someone who shot himself with a crossbow, held a firework too long, smoked to the point of emphysema, or has some other completely preventable condition that you shouldn't be held accountable for.

As for the rest, like illness, that's why we have insurance.

You know the United States spends almost as much money on it's military as every other country in the world put togethers? Taxpayers would not have to pay more money if the military budget is cut and some money is directed towards healthcare.

Also, not everybody can pay for their insurance sadly.

[Nfsjunkie91]

To everyone wishing for free health care for all, just take a look at Britain's system. It doesn't work too well, does it? Sure, looks great on paper, but so does communism.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

You know the United States spends almost as much money on it's military as every other country in the world put togethers? Taxpayers would not have to pay more money if the military budget is cut and some money is directed towards healthcare.

Taxpayers would not have to pay more if the military budget was directed towards ANYTHING.  No matter if you support the war or not, you have to admit that hundreds of billions of dollars are being spent on a cause that has produced little to no improvement over the course of several years, and has dropped our President's approval rating like a jet-powered anvil.  That argument is far too general to justify government-funded healthcare.