TW CW Discussion

[Dizzy So 1337]

Hi. I'd like to start a discussion here on the suitability of Trenchwars for CW.

On its face, Trenchwars has a lot of problems when it comes to CW. It requires a lot of people generally to be truly fun (4v4 and up), takes a long time and is low-scoring. The fact is, most TW games end 0/0 and how do you decisively declare a victor?

Trenchwars is becoming more popular every day, and clans like 101st, DO, SC and Vx are really making great strides in demonstrating what a fantastic game mode this can be when you have a good team. But I think that for TW to really take off, will require TW veterans and clan leaders to sit down and agree on a format for proper tw cw.


What I think is needed, is for the leaders of DO, 101st, Vx and SC to sit down and agree on a format.


Thoughts: A proper TW CW will probably not be played under the normal CTF rules of 'best of 3'. It is more conducive to the nature of TW that a single match be played. Example:

20 minute timelimit
no cap limit
M79 and Minigun are disallowed
2 nade limit

Now... if a single map determines the result of a cw, then map choice becomes VERY, VERY important. How should this be decided? Moreover, since there is no such thing as an 'official' TW map, it will be important for the clan leaders to agree on a set of maps that is acceptable to be chosen. I'm new to the TW scene and won't offer suggestions on these matters except to say that I think that they should be agreed upon by the major clan leaders.


BONUS - THINKING OUTSIDE THE MAP

Airstrikes
Can anyone truly believe that a cw would be valid without this f**k badass script? It is time for us to all petition Enesce to release it, if only to TW clan leaders that want to run private servers for the purpose of TWCW.

Scoring the stalemate
Lemme start with the statement that I would NOT like to see a 0/0 caps game determined by kills, because this will encourage more camping and I would rather see a TW game determined by ground won. That said, without a new script, there seems to be no way to determine a win except by kill count. Humble suggestion for this scriptless scenario:

Team A wins if both first and second place killcount are held by team A.
Team B wins if both first and second place killcount are held by team B.
Anything else is a draw in a 0/0 cap situation.

Scripts/Mods to make TW CW FTW!!!!
Now, we're talking.... this is what I would most like to see, but it would take an overwhelming majority of present TW clan leaders to agree, to make it work. Simplicity should be KEY.... anything too complicated will discourage other new TW clans, which in turn hurts the scene. What would happen if....

Scoring by Airstrike
In this example, every Airstrike grants one capture point to the winning team.

HTF
The mode was changed to Hold the Flag, with the yellow flag defaulted to middle. FURTHER - what if there was a script where if one team held the flag, they got NO SPAWNS until the flag had been recaptured! This would be hella phat TW fun I think.

Assault mode
If the flag positions were switched, then the whole point of the game would be simply to carry the enemy flag into their base. I like this one because it encourages aggression, therefore faster-paced games. Also because the FFC would stick out like a sore thumb, it would encourage massive teamwork to protect him and get him into the enemy base.

Pie in the sky
If only TW could be scored based on ground taken and held. Distance from the enemy flag giving points in an inverse ratio. Holding an enemy bunker = points. You all know you would love it if this was the case.

So, in closing, I've spent some time here musing over what it would take to make TWCW as easy and fun as CTFCW. Hoping that it makes for some good discussion. Dizzy out.

[EnEsCe]

It is time for us to all petition Enesce to release it, if only to TW clan leaders that want to run private servers for the purpose of TWCW.

I wont be releasing it. It's the only thing that keeps people coming to my TW Servers with all these other servers trying to imitate mine.

[Ervis]

You can try for winning, if the scores end 0-0 by the time limit, then add the total kill scores of each clan and whom ever has the most kill points wins?

[Espadon]

Last night, DO had a CW with _Vx_, on the classic maps GloryHill, Nomans, Verdun, with 20 minutes per match, 2 nades max, and minigun and m79 disallowed ("[eC] format"). By the end of the 3rd and final map, DO and _Vx_ were are a draw to which team won (DO-Vx: 3-0, 0-1, 1-1), but instead of deciding by kills, another 20 minute round was played on GloryHill, with DO barely squeezing out a 1-0 on the very last second.

Draws should be broken with a tiebreaker such as above, if time allows.

[Dizzy So 1337]

Last night, DO had a CW with _Vx_, on the classic maps GloryHill, Nomans, Verdun, with 20 minutes per match, 2 nades max, and minigun and m79 disallowed ("[eC] format"). By the end of the 3rd and final map, DO and _Vx_ were are a draw to which team won (DO-Vx: 3-0, 0-1, 1-1), but instead of deciding by kills, another 20 minute round was played on GloryHill, with DO barely squeezing out a 1-0 on the very last second.

Draws should be broken with a tiebreaker such as above, if time allows.

I think that's awesome that two clans can actually sit down and play for 80+ minutes !!! But I think that is probably the exception and not the rule... I have enough trouble getting people to sit down and play a coupla 10 minute ctf rounds...
 

[Avarax]

Dizzy So I think a script that calculates map domination based on the distance from your front to your flag could be a way to calculate a winner, so the basic thought of TW, "every centimeter counts" is realized in scores.

[Dizzy So 1337]

Dizzy So I think a script that calculates map domination based on the distance from your front to your flag could be a way to calculate a winner, so the basic thought of TW, "every centimeter counts" is realized in scores.

YEAH!!!!

I think that's an obvious no-brainer as far as the best of all possible solutions.  The thing is, whether the big TW clans would get onboard and help to make it a standard. 

Regardless, some thought and discussion should go into the details... is it based on the closest person to ever get to the flag?  Or do people start 'racking up points' by staying in the endzone?  Example if the map was divided into four sections, and everybody in section 1 would get -1 point for every 20 seconds they were there, no points for being in section 2, +1 point for being in section 3, and +2 for being in section 4 (closest to enemy flag)... something like that...

But the end solution should be 'new map friendly', im sure all would agree.  So a more elegant solution is called for...

Even a script where merely grabbing the flag gave a reward would be awesome and increase scoring and aggression and pace, without sacrificing the integrity of the game.  +1 for a grab, and a win for a cap?  Anyone?

[SpiltCoffee]

Maybe use zyxstand's TTO game mode mixed with infiltration scoring. For every bunker that a team holds, they get a point for, which is given at intervals of, like, 5 seconds?

Something like this would probably make TW a massive scoring game... lol.

[Iq Unlimited]

heres how I see it:

First of all NO scripts on the server, killsprees, etc. to make it fair

Timelimit 20 minutes
Caplimit 5 (I think..)
3v3 - 5v5 allowed

if its 0/0 then add up the total points for both clans and whomever has more points wins. Simple as that .

[Chakra]

Once upon a time 4 years ago around the time when I had only first started playing, or maybe before, there was a league for Soldat. The first truly recognised of its kind. It was called the SCTFL, and has just had it's 10th league end this week.

The SCTFL set a standard for people. It made rules and customs that still hold in friendly cw's to this day, right down to the little things like who decides what map and when, teams of 3v3, and other such quirks.

Rules and regulations to clan wars aren't established by discussion alone, but by all the clans getting together and establishing a code of conduct themselves, for themselves. If you want to set a standard, look towards a league. It'll require patience, but Rome wasn't built in a day, SCTFL wasn't born overnight, and Soldat still has a few bugs in it.

[SirJamesaford]

If it ends in a 0-0 tie then it shouldnt be decided by kills.  It should be decided by your k/d ratio.  If someone has 21 kills and 18 deaths then his score is +3.  Add it all up and whichever team has the best k/d ratio overall is the winner...I see no other way to decide a winner.

[Avarax]

Dizzy So I think a script that calculates map domination based on the distance from your front to your flag could be a way to calculate a winner, so the basic thought of TW, "every centimeter counts" is realized in scores.

YEAH!!!!

I think that's an obvious no-brainer as far as the best of all possible solutions. The thing is, whether the big TW clans would get onboard and help to make it a standard.

Regardless, some thought and discussion should go into the details... is it based on the closest person to ever get to the flag? Or do people start 'racking up points' by staying in the endzone? Example if the map was divided into four sections, and everybody in section 1 would get -1 point for every 20 seconds they were there, no points for being in section 2, +1 point for being in section 3, and +2 for being in section 4 (closest to enemy flag)... something like that...

I could make a totally map independant script that would calculate the map domination in percentage. It would calculate this percentage every second and show the current domination in say the usual flagscore table. The overall domination would be the average domination a team has during the whole match, and this overall domination would be what counts in the end. Scoring with the flag would of course have a powerful bonus effect on this overall domination.

[Espadon]

Hrm, in the DO-Vx 3v3 CW, the front line fluctuated extremely; there were very few "line holding" moments, as team Vx was Chete-based -- shotgun rush-or-die. Sometimes they'd punch right through all the way to the Blue flag, but without touching it, but then get repulsed way back to the base.

Anyways that script may be circumvented by a hider that's behind the lines (which also happened a lot in the CW). Lol I know because I was there XD

Chakra -- good note about Leagues; I think Dizzy's aiming for something like that.

[Avarax]

Anyways that script may be circumvented by a hider that's behind the lines (which also happened a lot in the CW). Lol I know because I was there XD

There's a solution for that.

[Espadon]

Hrm. Well, let's just put it in a test server someday and see how it works. Sounds like it should work but no telling what people could pull off and I have one of those funny feelings XD

[Dizzy So 1337]

Maybe use zyxstand's TTO game mode mixed with infiltration scoring. For every bunker that a team holds, they get a point for, which is given at intervals of, like, 5 seconds?

Something like this would probably make TW a massive scoring game... lol.

I'll check it out.  From my standpoint, the goal is to increase scoring without negatively impacting the spirit of the game as it exists now.  'A reasonably decisive TW CW should be able to be played in 20-30 minutes'; accomplish this and the scene will have broader appeal for newcomers and more TW clans.

......if its 0/0 then add up the total points for both clans and whomever has more points wins. Simple as that .

If it ends in a 0-0 tie then it shouldnt be decided by kills.  It should be decided by your k/d ratio.  If someone has 21 kills and 18 deaths then his score is +3.

Does a kill- or ratio-based victory discourage aggression and capping attempts, I wonder.  How hard would it be, and how appealing would it be, to replace the ctf scoring with tm scoring... +1 for enemy death, -1 for friendly death, +20 for cap. 

Regardless, it would be nice to be able to get a feel for the current score without having to do a lot of mid-game arithmetic.  A simple script to spit out the current overall score (whether based on kills or ratio) would be a simple and handy addition to any tw cw server, I would think.



Date Posted: July 28, 2007, 04:44:18 PM

I could make a totally map independant script that would calculate the map domination in percentage. It would calculate this percentage every second and show the current domination in say the usual flagscore table. The overall domination would be the average domination a team has during the whole match, and this overall domination would be what counts in the end. Scoring with the flag would of course have a powerful bonus effect on this overall domination.

Ha, I don't doubt you could, almight Avarax.  However, I hope we can build some consensus on what we really want before we ask you (oh so politely, with our little soldat helmets in our little soldat hands) to take any time away from working on Hexer. 

[-Major-]

what about just puting the flag closer to each others?

an example below:

current TW:


this idea TW:

this would make a lot more scoring because it takes more time to gain reinforcements.

[Maniatiko]

I think a TW CLANWAR Should be at most 20 mins EACH game and 3 maps (1 hour+ is more than enough, and its exhausting)

I find that the best way to see who is the winner is the one who gets more kills, because at some point one clan will be almost going to score, controlling most of the map, but if the other clan defends well enough they can manage to make the other team fall back and still win. Although this might help camping but nothing is perfect

also I wish it could be a 4v4 clanwar, I personally love strats, I play professionaly Call of Duty 2 and Counter Strike and LOVE to make strats, thats why I play TW, and playing 4v4 is just enough to make a good strat, with variety of weapons, and attacking methods (I have great ideas for 3v3 HEXER strats btw), and 4v4 is just good enough, NOT too crowded making it NOT to easy to cap, but fair enough for a team to catch enemy's flag


actually ATM i'm clanless but wanting to join a clan JUST for CW, cuz I find a 4v4 would be really nice, ORGANIZED strats rlz and this mod rlz

EDIT: BTW, maps should be fixed, ENESCE, when sometimes i'm running and die WTF? out of no-where and SUICIDE? WTF? >_>

EDIT 2: I think also there should be MORE maps but not to play, to test and SEE which are the most balanced and less buggy, because some maps are really unbalanced, thrown towards one team winning, so its really lame, some maps I dont play in RED team because its practically impossible to do something.

[SirJamesaford]

Hows about first to cap no time limit?  I dont know... just tryin to help.

[Iq Unlimited]

lol, easier, but no.