Abortion

[ThunderPantz]

My opinion: All abortion is wrong.


 >_>   <_<

[frogboy]

I haven't read the whole thing since I'm fucking lazy and could barely put up reading two pages, but the whole argument about pain should be irrelevant.

Medical scientists do not have a consensus on when foetuses start to feel pain, and it is possible that they do not feel pain until long after most abortions occur. And surely it's better to have a painful yet quick death (the spinal cord is not developed to a stage where it can survive without a host until 16-25 weeks, and in the UK at least, the vast majority of abortions happen in the first ten weeks) than to be neglected by an unloving parent.

There's also cases where abortion could certainly be warranted. If childbirth could kill the woman (and it can, in some cases) or if the child has a severe mental defect, abortion can be justified.

Also, many anti-abortionists oppose abortion on a theological basis. Aware of the hyperbole I'm about to use, I'm sure some of us would be pissed off if we weren't allowed to eat pork or pizza because of Jewish/Muslim beliefs, and some people would be disgusted if we followed the Celtic tradition of decapitating our defeated enemies and bringing the heads back to display. (Really all this paragraph is here for is to annoy you religious types)

[ThunderPantz]

A good solution would be to abort all the retard babies.

[SDFilm]

A good solution would be to abort all the retard babies.

Where would you draw the line between 'worthy to live' and 'not worthy to live'?

[Will]

I am always right, therefore you are all wrong. Abortion is just a removal of a couple of cells from a woman body. There are no such things as soul, fetus feeling pain or fetus conciousness.

I have one simple question for all men here: Would you stop having sex with your girlfriend/wife so she doesn't get pregnant?  Or, what would you do if your girlfriend/wife said she doesn't wanna have sex because she doesn't wanna get pregnant?

[jap_man]

Who cares if abortion is moral or not, it's the mother's choice whether or not to give birth to a baby. Being pregnant isn't some sort of walk in the park and when the baby is born all is well and everybody's happy and shit. Some people would rather get an abortion rather than endure pregnancy and then face the hard task of devoting the next 20 or so years of your life to a child, if they choose not to put their child up for adoption. Sometimes it's the best decision others times not but really, it should mother's choice

I never understood why pro-lifers care so much about what a mother decides to do with her unborn baby. Why can't you just allow women to make their own decisions with their own lives just like how people make the decision to smoke or drink or to live certain lifestyles. 

Also for the record abortion is not murder, you're not killing a living, conscious person and when you think about what can be done with aborted fetuses (ie. stem cell research) it can serve a use which can go towards helping people.

[Smegma]

Go eat a time bomb, just because its not exploding now won't make it a stupid idea.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

I'm pretty sure the only female on the forum has never been pregnant either.  We're just as qualified as she is to talk about it.

Not only have you not ever been pregnant, but you don't even have the possibility of becoming pregnant. Ever. As a female person of reproductive age I think I am slightly more qualified than you are.

Yes, in the same way that any Jewish person is "more qualified" to talk about how bad concentration camps were, even if they've never actually been in one.  You don't gain experience by being part of a group; you gain it by performing the action.

I think that humans are different from animals because of the degree of self-awareness we are able to achieve. A fetus does not develop self-awareness until some time after birth. At the early stages, which is when most abortions happen, it's not much better than a plant.

But by that logic, it's also completely ethical to kill babies for a short while after they're born.  Are you for that as well?

No, because after they are born they no longer require the use of the uterus. The woman can give the baby up for adoption if she doesn't want it.

Then you should give that as a reason, instead of saying that abortion is alright because a fetus isn't "human" yet.  And doesn't that also imply that babies who need an incubator after they are born are still abortable? Ungrateful parasites, wasting the hospital's time and money like that...

Too bad I wasn't comparing getting pregnant to getting hit by a train.

If I may cite an example to the contrary:

she gets pregnant when she does not want to be pregnant then she is irresposible,

Yeah, and people who contract STDs from having sex or get hit by a train should not be treated, because they were irresponsible and they must live with the consequences of their actions. Right?

You repeated the analogy later as well, and I responded to it:

According to your logic, it should be illegal to treat people with STDs and people who were hit by a train.

Let's put this into context.  If the person who got hit by a train required a heart transplant from a living person (effectively killing that person), then yes, it should be illegal to treat them.

I didn't say opposing abortion makes you a woman hater. I said that opposing abortion on the grounds that women deserve to be punished for having sex for reasons other than procreation makes you a woman hater. If it was really all about the life of the fetus, the sluttiness of the woman would never have come up.

It came up because you brought it up.  Should we add "straw man argument" to your list of fallacies? Anyway, just for context:

Or, if having a baby is SUCH A HASSLE (ungrateful parasites), she should just get the equivalent of a vasectomy.

What if she wants to have a baby later on in life?

Maybe she should wait until then to have sex.  Like I said, actions have consequences.  You can't sleep around willy-nilly now, then get serious later.  If you're going to act in a way that may make you pregnant, you should be ready to have that baby.  Otherwise you're just irresponsible.

Yeah, punish those sluts!!

Now do you see why I don't want you responding to topics not addressed to you? It's because you make an irrelevant comment on a side discussion, then use that as a basis for how I feel for TEN MORE PAGES.

The issue is not fetal life vs. fetal death, it's women's rights vs. fetal rights.

Ok.  But since my stance has always been that fetuses are human and therefore share human rights, the destruction of them is immoral and should be illegal.  Your rights stop short of violating someone else's.

I tend to get a little pissed off when people talk about wanting to deny me my rights.

The only one talking about denying you your rights is you.  The rest of us are debating about a fetus's humanity and it's subsequent rights as a human being.  But you're throwing a fit, yelling at us for things we didn't say, and assuming that everyone is against you.  THEY'RE NOT.  It's not always about you.

Oh, and as for your little sob story about the innocent woman who is a victim of the heartless fetus, forget it.  There are more lives involved than just hers, and destroying someone's potential because it inconveniences you is wrong no matter how you look at it.

Why can't you just allow women to make their own decisions with their own lives just like how people make the decision to smoke or drink or to live certain lifestyles.

Because she's also making her own decision with someone else's life, and that's wrong.

when you think about what can be done with aborted fetuses (ie. stem cell research) it can serve a use which can go towards helping people.

That's like saying it's alright to kill mentally challenged people so we can dissect and study their brains in order to help others in the future.  People don't have abortions because they want to further stem cell research (except in South Park).

[Dascoo]

There's also cases where abortion could certainly be warranted. If childbirth could kill the woman (and it can, in some cases) or if the child has a severe mental defect, abortion can be justified.

Only thing where I think it's neccessary.

[Anna]

I'm pretty sure the only female on the forum has never been pregnant either.  We're just as qualified as she is to talk about it.

Not only have you not ever been pregnant, but you don't even have the possibility of becoming pregnant. Ever. As a female person of reproductive age I think I am slightly more qualified than you are.

Yes, in the same way that any Jewish person is "more qualified" to talk about how bad concentration camps were, even if they've never actually been in one.  You don't gain experience by being part of a group; you gain it by performing the action.

It's ridiculous that you think you are equaly qualified to make decisions about this issue. This is exactly the problem I have: men making decisions about women's bodies.

I think that humans are different from animals because of the degree of self-awareness we are able to achieve. A fetus does not develop self-awareness until some time after birth. At the early stages, which is when most abortions happen, it's not much better than a plant.

But by that logic, it's also completely ethical to kill babies for a short while after they're born.  Are you for that as well?

No, because after they are born they no longer require the use of the uterus. The woman can give the baby up for adoption if she doesn't want it.

Then you should give that as a reason, instead of saying that abortion is alright because a fetus isn't "human" yet.  And doesn't that also imply that babies who need an incubator after they are born are still abortable? Ungrateful parasites, wasting the hospital's time and money like that...

An incubation machine does not have the rights of a woman.

Too bad I wasn't comparing getting pregnant to getting hit by a train.

If I may cite an example to the contrary:

she gets pregnant when she does not want to be pregnant then she is irresposible,

Yeah, and people who contract STDs from having sex or get hit by a train should not be treated, because they were irresponsible and they must live with the consequences of their actions. Right?

You repeated the analogy later as well, and I responded to it:

According to your logic, it should be illegal to treat people with STDs and people who were hit by a train.

Let's put this into context.  If the person who got hit by a train required a heart transplant from a living person (effectively killing that person), then yes, it should be illegal to treat them.

That is a comparison of refusal to treat someone who was "stupid" enough to contract an STD/get hit by a train to refusal to treat pregnancy on the grounds that the woman was "stupid" enough to get pregnant.

You were comparing punishment for having sex for pleasure to punishment for stealing candy. This only makes sense if you think having sex for pleasure is immoral or should be illegal. If that's the case, then men should be punished for consensual sex resulting in unwanted pregnancy as well. However you only want to punish women.

Your heart transplant example changes the issue to the value of the fetus/person with the heart, which was not the point of the analogy.

I didn't say opposing abortion makes you a woman hater. I said that opposing abortion on the grounds that women deserve to be punished for having sex for reasons other than procreation makes you a woman hater. If it was really all about the life of the fetus, the sluttiness of the woman would never have come up.

It came up because you brought it up.  Should we add "straw man argument" to your list of fallacies? Anyway, just for context:

Or, if having a baby is SUCH A HASSLE (ungrateful parasites), she should just get the equivalent of a vasectomy.

What if she wants to have a baby later on in life?

Maybe she should wait until then to have sex.  Like I said, actions have consequences.  You can't sleep around willy-nilly now, then get serious later.  If you're going to act in a way that may make you pregnant, you should be ready to have that baby.  Otherwise you're just irresponsible.

Yeah, punish those sluts!!

Now do you see why I don't want you responding to topics not addressed to you? It's because you make an irrelevant comment on a side discussion, then use that as a basis for how I feel for TEN MORE PAGES.

You apparently don't understand the meaning of your words.

Like I said, actions have consequences.  You can't sleep around willy-nilly now, then get serious later.
= sluttiness is bad. If you are a slut, you will get punished.

If you're going to act in a way that may make you pregnant, you should be ready to have that baby.
= if being slutty makes you pregnant, you should expect to be forced to have the baby as punishment.

Otherwise you're just irresponsible.
= we can't have you go unpunished, you slut.

Your hatred of women is very relevant to this discussion. Like I said, if you only cared about the fetus, you would not have brought up the morality of the woman's actions in getting pregnant, because it does not aftect the value of the life of the fetus.

The issue is not fetal life vs. fetal death, it's women's rights vs. fetal rights.

Ok.  But since my stance has always been that fetuses are human and therefore share human rights, the destruction of them is immoral and should be illegal.  Your rights stop short of violating someone else's.

The unwanted fetus isn't just sitting around minding its own business. It lives in the uterus against the woman's will, violating the rights of the woman.

I tend to get a little pissed off when people talk about wanting to deny me my rights.

That's simply an unrealistic extrapolation of the situation.  If I went on private property and got arrested for trespassing, I could shout all I wanted, "The Bill of Rights protects me! I have the right to move about freely at home or abroad!" That doesn't mean that my rights have been violated; it means I'm trying to dig up sympathy points because "the man" is holding me down.

Huh? You're talking about making abortion illegal. Would that not affect my rights, being in possession of a uterus?

[Smegma]

An incubation machine does not have the rights of a woman.

Well, maybe it should.

[Keron Cyst]

Blast it... this thread has propelled so quickly that I lost the page where my response was

If you're going to act in a way that may make you pregnant, you should be ready to have that baby.

You think that's being sexist? No, no, he's really being honest here. I mean, I can't truly know about LAW Gamer's perspective, but I at least would certainly declare the same for guys who are having promiscuous sex (if it were possible).


Anyways, I was going to mention this: you are treating it like the fetus is a parasite and nothing more. Quite frankly, once the individual is born properly, it has on averagely least the ability to contribute well to society (can a regular parasite take care of its host after the beginning of its lifespan is completed? Stop treating it like some monster), as well as potentially the power to change the world.

You should never discard something like that so recklessly.

[a-4-year-old]

Your rights don't matter when they infringe on someone else's

Like "Oh i don't want the inconvenience of putting a baby up for adoption so killing it is the best answer"

[Anna]

If you're going to act in a way that may make you pregnant, you should be ready to have that baby.

You think that's being sexist? No, no, he's really being honest here. I mean, I can't truly know about LAW Gamer's perspective, but I at least would certainly declare the same for guys who are having promiscuous sex (if it were possible).

Oh well, I'm hiring people for my business, but only people with ovaries are allowed to apply for the job. I'm being honest, not sexist; after all, if dudes had ovaries I would certainly hire them too!

Date Posted: August 07, 2007, 11:34:29 AM

Your rights don't matter when they infringe on someone else's

Like "Oh i don't want the inconvenience of putting a baby up for adoption so killing it is the best answer"

Exactly: the fetus is infringing on the rights of the woman by using her uterus against her will, and the only way to stop it is to kill it.

[Keron Cyst]

When death is forever and the fetus is only there for 8-10 months, and when there's only 1/10000 chance of the fetus itself taking down the mother?

(sorry if inaccurate, stat. from Wikipedia xD)

[a-4-year-old]

Exactly: the fetus is infringing on the rights of the woman by using her uterus against her will, and the only way to stop it is to kill it.

so what is worse, right to live vs right to not have a stretched vagina.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

It's ridiculous that you think you are equaly qualified to make decisions about this issue. This is exactly the problem I have: men making decisions about women's bodies.

I'm not saying that I'm as qualified as a pregnant woman.  Obviously I'm not.  But I don't believe you are either, for reasons that I already gave.

That is a comparison of refusal to treat someone who was "stupid" enough to contract an STD/get hit by a train to refusal to treat pregnancy on the grounds that the woman was "stupid" enough to get pregnant.

You were comparing punishment for having sex for pleasure to punishment for stealing candy. This only makes sense if you think having sex for pleasure is immoral or should be illegal. If that's the case, then men should be punished for consensual sex resulting in unwanted pregnancy as well. However you only want to punish women.

Not true.  If a man had a role in impregnating the woman, he definitely should have to support her and the baby.  I assume that's what you mean by "punishment."  But this is just another example of you putting words in my mouth, assuming I believe something I don't, and basing your arguments on that.  That's known as begging the question, and it's number three on your list of fallacies.

Anyway, the point of my analogy, which I believe I stated after making the analogy, was that actions have consequences.  It wasn't that sex should be illegal.

Your heart transplant example changes the issue to the value of the fetus/person with the heart, which was not the point of the analogy.

But it's tied into it.  If, as you say, you're "stupid" enough to get pregnant, then no, you shouldn't be treated if it will cost another human their life.

Now do you see why I don't want you responding to topics not addressed to you? It's because you make an irrelevant comment on a side discussion, then use that as a basis for how I feel for TEN MORE PAGES.

You apparently don't understand the meaning of your words.

Like I said, actions have consequences.  You can't sleep around willy-nilly now, then get serious later.
= sluttiness is bad. If you are a slut, you will get punished.

You just can't get over the issue of punishment, can you? If you go into work, do you job, and get paid, are you being punished? Of course not.  But the paycheck is still a consequence of you working.  Punishment implies that some wrong action has been taken, and there is nothing legally wrong with having sex.

If you're going to act in a way that may make you pregnant, you should be ready to have that baby.
= if being slutty makes you pregnant, you should expect to be forced to have the baby as punishment.

Your biased views make it maddening to try to have a civil debate.  BEING A MOTHER IS NOT PUNISHMENT!  THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING A CHILD AND TAKING CARE OF IT!

If your actions cause a baby to be formed, it is your responsibility as THE MOTHER OF THAT BABY to support it, nourish it, and do your best to ensure that it has a happy life.

Otherwise you're just irresponsible.
= we can't have you go unpunished, you slut.

You just can't get over punishment, can you.  See above.

Your hatred of women is very relevant to this discussion. Like I said, if you only cared about the fetus, you would not have brought up the morality of the woman's actions in getting pregnant, because it does not affect the value of the life of the fetus.

Stop doing that! Stop putting words in my mouth.  I never brought up the morality of getting pregnant.  My initial argument was that if you get pregnant, it is almost always because of actions you chose to take.  I never voiced an opinion on whether those actions were intrinsically right or wrong.  But you assume that "consequence" is synonymous with "punishment," and therefore infer that I feel that fornication is wrong.  I may feel that way, but I never said so, and I NEVER used it as the basis of an argument.

As for the whole "hatred of women" thing, get over it.  Disagreeing with you does NOT mean that I hate women.  I just think that unborn people should have the same rights as people who have been born.  If you feel that you lose some rights in the process, tough.  If you feel that raising a fetus to your level of humanity is sexist discrimination, you couldn't be more wrong.

The unwanted fetus isn't just sitting around minding its own business. It lives in the uterus against the woman's will, violating the rights of the woman.

See below.

I tend to get a little pissed off when people talk about wanting to deny me my rights.

That's simply an unrealistic extrapolation of the situation.  If I went on private property and got arrested for trespassing, I could shout all I wanted, "The Bill of Rights protects me! I have the right to move about freely at home or abroad!" That doesn't mean that my rights have been violated; it means I'm trying to dig up sympathy points because "the man" is holding me down.

Huh? You're talking about making abortion illegal. Would that not affect my rights, being in possession of a uterus?

While you were posting, I modified my response in order to make it slightly clearer how I feel:

The only one talking about denying you your rights is you.  The rest of us are debating about a fetus's humanity and it's subsequent rights as a human being.  But you're throwing a fit, yelling at us for things we didn't say, and assuming that everyone is against you.  THEY'RE NOT.  It's not always about you.

Oh, and as for your little sob story about the innocent woman who is a victim of the heartless fetus, forget it.  There are more lives involved than just hers, and destroying someone's potential because it inconveniences you is wrong no matter how you look at it.

Date Posted: August 07, 2007, 10:54:11 AM

Oh well, I'm hiring people for my business, but only people with ovaries are allowed to apply for the job. I'm being honest, not sexist; after all, if dudes had ovaries I would certainly hire them too!

Now you're just ranting.  Stay on topic. (No, this post isn't sexist discrimination)

[Anna]

It's ridiculous that you think you are equaly qualified to make decisions about this issue. This is exactly the problem I have: men making decisions about women's bodies.

I'm not saying that I'm as qualified as a pregnant woman.  Obviously I'm not.  But I don't believe you are either, for reasons that I already gave.

I never said I'm as qualified as a pregnant woman.

If you're going to act in a way that may make you pregnant, you should be ready to have that baby.
= if being slutty makes you pregnant, you should expect to be forced to have the baby as punishment.

Your biased views make it maddening to try to have a civil debate.  BEING A MOTHER IS NOT PUNISHMENT!  THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING A CHILD AND TAKING CARE OF IT!

Being forced to be a mother against your will because you had consensual sex amounts to punishment.

If your actions cause a baby to be formed, it is your responsibility as THE MOTHER OF THAT BABY to support it, nourish it, and do your best to ensure that it has a happy life.

And if it's not the result of your actions (rape) ?

Your hatred of women is very relevant to this discussion. Like I said, if you only cared about the fetus, you would not have brought up the morality of the woman's actions in getting pregnant, because it does not affect the value of the life of the fetus.

Stop doing that! Stop putting words in my mouth.  I never brought up the morality of getting pregnant.  My initial argument was that if you get pregnant, it is almost always because of actions you chose to take.  I never voiced an opinion on whether those actions were intrinsically right or wrong.  But you assume that "consequence" is synonymous with "punishment," and therefore infer that I feel that fornication is wrong.  I may feel that way, but I never said so, and I NEVER used it as the basis of an argument.

That's right: pregnancy is often the result of consensual sex. Forced pregnancy is not the result of sex. Forced pregnancy is the result of the denial of a medical procedure.

It's obvious that you feel that fornication is wrong because you did say so, and you are using it as backup to your argument for the value of fetal life.

You have two separate arguments for denying abortion:

1. The fetus must be kept alive because the life of the fetus is worth more than the woman's control over her body.

2. If the fetus is a result of consensual sex it must be keep alive because the actions of the woman are what led to its existence.

If you take #1 away, #2 still stands. The only reason for #2 is to punish women for having consensual sex.

As for the whole "hatred of women" thing, get over it.  Disagreeing with you does NOT mean that I hate women.  I just think that unborn people should have the same rights as people who have been born.  If you feel that you lose some rights in the process, tough.  If you feel that raising a fetus to your level of humanity is sexist discrimination, you couldn't be more wrong.

Raising the humanity of fetal life at the expense of the humanity of women is sexist discrimination.

The unwanted fetus isn't just sitting around minding its own business. It lives in the uterus against the woman's will, violating the rights of the woman.

See below.

I tend to get a little pissed off when people talk about wanting to deny me my rights.

That's simply an unrealistic extrapolation of the situation.  If I went on private property and got arrested for trespassing, I could shout all I wanted, "The Bill of Rights protects me! I have the right to move about freely at home or abroad!" That doesn't mean that my rights have been violated; it means I'm trying to dig up sympathy points because "the man" is holding me down.

Huh? You're talking about making abortion illegal. Would that not affect my rights, being in possession of a uterus?

While you were posting, I modified my response in order to make it slightly clearer how I feel:

The only one talking about denying you your rights is you.  The rest of us are debating about a fetus's humanity and it's subsequent rights as a human being.  But you're throwing a fit, yelling at us for things we didn't say, and assuming that everyone is against you.  THEY'RE NOT.  It's not always about you.

As long as I have the ability to get pregnant it is about me.

Oh, and as for your little sob story about the innocent woman who is a victim of the heartless fetus, forget it.  There are more lives involved than just hers, and destroying someone's potential because it inconveniences you is wrong no matter how you look at it.

So now it's about potential? Well sh*t, egg cells have potential but I kill one every month. You kill countless sperm when you masturbate. All that destroyed potential!!

Date Posted: August 07, 2007, 10:54:11 AM

Oh well, I'm hiring people for my business, but only people with ovaries are allowed to apply for the job. I'm being honest, not sexist; after all, if dudes had ovaries I would certainly hire them too!

Now you're just ranting.  Stay on topic. (No, this post isn't sexist discrimination)

But that was not directed at you!!

Keron Cyst said that if dudes had uteruses they would be treated the same as women. My example is perfectly analogous.

[a-4-year-old]

Anna your arguments go in circles.

There are other options (adoption) you don't have to take care of your baby, you just have to manage to keep it alive until its ready.

"Raising the humanity of fetal life at the expense of the humanity of women is sexist discrimination."
that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Raising the humanity of fetal life at the expense of the humanity of women is sexist discrimination.

And that says it all right there.  You're not interested in holding a meaningful discussion.  You just want to spew your feminist garbage, and anyone who disagrees with you or tries to bring you back on topic is a sexist woman-hater.  You believe that some forms of human life have more value than others.  You refuse to acknowledge the concepts of consequences and responsibility, instead calling them "punishment" for "being a woman."

You know what? Having a kid sucks if you're not prepared for it.  I'll be the first to admit that.  And you know what? Maybe having a kid unexpectedly when you're a teenager WILL ruin your life.  Maybe you should ****ing wait until you're ready to have kids before you have sex!

Is being pregnant a punishment?  Maybe so.  Maybe it's your punishment for being a ****ing idiot.  There are other ways to have sex besides intercourse, but there are no other ways to have a child.  That means, no matter what you say, no matter what feminist bull**** you have rattling around in your head, that YOU KNEW WHAT COULD HAPPEN AND YOU DID IT ANYWAY.  "Hey, everyone, let's play Russian Roulette!"  "Isn't that risky?" "Nah, there's over an 80% chance that I'll be fine."  And he ****ing blows himself away.  Is anyone going to be sorry for that guy?  No.  He knew the risks, and he disregarded them.  "Ow, I was poking a bee and got stung! Now my finger is swollen! How dare that bee violate my rights as a woman!"  Yeah, great excuse, idiot.

No matter what the circumstances, you have the duty and the responsibility to protect and nurture that baby.  "Hey Mom, did you know that Tommy couldn't swim? I pushed him into the lake and he drowned."  "You didn't save him?" "Screw that! It would have been an exertion on my body, and my rights as a man protect me from having to do that." "So you knew what would happen, but you pushed him in anyway?" "Oh, I was having fun at the time.  I didn't think about the rest of it."

If Billy ****ing pushes his brother into the lake, it's his responsibility to save him.  If you get yourself pregnant, it's your responsibility to save the baby.  It doesn't matter how much "punishment" you have to go through.  A life is put into your hands, and throwing it out is NOT an option.