Abortion

[Anna]

It isn't a punishment, it is a result of having sex, if you don't want it, don't do it, plain and simple.

Yes, pregnancy is a possible result of sex.

Forced pregnancy/birth is the result of being denied a medical procedure.

Denying someone a medical procedure because you don't condone the actions they took to get to that state amounts to punishing the person for their actions.

Therefore making abortion illegal because "it is a result of sex" punishes women for having sex.

Date Posted: August 06, 2007, 08:40:31 PM

not about punishment, but if killing a fetus cured aids then i would insist the fetus be spared.

In both situations most of the time you can prevent those things from happening, ie abstenence and paying attention to when a train is coming at you, if you get raped and contract an STD thats just sad, but I can't help those people.

You didn't answer my question. According to your logic, it should be illegal to treat people with STDs and people who were hit by a train.

[a-4-year-old]

the treatment for people with STDs and people who get hit by a train doesn't involve a fetus dying.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Yikes, three pages of posts while I was gone.  This will be long.

I'm against it.  You may not like what happened to you, but can still take the steps to ensure that your child has a happy, or at least tolerable, life.

Then why did you bring up the issue of consensual vs. non-consensual sex? If it's really all about the fetus, consent or lack of it isn't relevant.

I was responding to someone else's post, that's why.  Sooner or later you'll need to learn that not all of my replies are directed towards you.

Most of us here are males. Yeah it's easy for us to say that a woman should give brith to a child. But what would you do? You wussies couldn't even stand the pain of the birth. And don't get me started on the 9 months the woman has to endure with the bulging stomach, swollen feet and hormone disorders. Just try to put yourself in a womans position and just think about it.

I'm pretty sure the only female on the forum has never been pregnant either.  We're just as qualified as she is to talk about it.

We kill animals all the time, for our own convenience, and I'm sure they feel pain and want to live. What makes human life so special?

We don't make the rules; we just follow them.  If a murder of one human is wrong, then it's always wrong.  Human life may be underdeveloped, deformed, mentally lacking, or physically handicapped, but it's still human.

Why do you assume a girl that got pregnant but didn't want it is a slut?

At LEAST nine times out of ten, the girl is sleeping with someone who she doesn't plan on being with for the rest of her life.  That's why.

Do you really believe abortion isn't taking a life? If you don't, I point to the rose example, if you do, how can you say it should be legal.

Abortion results in the death of the fetus. Are you saying that ripping roses out of the ground should be illegal because it results in the death of the rose?

You say it is the woman's right, but everyone in the United States has equal rights and deserves to live.

But why is it ok to kill animals and not fetuses? Is there something about human life that makes it more special than other forms of life?

So now you admit that fetuses are human life? And you're still in favor of destroying them? Please, just say what you mean.  If you really feel that humans are worth no more than animals or even PLANTS, for crying out loud, you have a very sad view of the world.

1. No, I think you fail to see the metaphor there, you are killing a human, which, last time I checked, was illegal, so abortion should be too

But killing a human isn't always illegal. For example, it is legal to kill someone in self-defense.

Yes, in order to SAVE YOUR OWN LIFE.  The last I checked, pregnancy wasn't life threatening.

LTKILLROY or whatever just explain why all those teenagers(including me and prolly you) want to have sex? Because they want a child? I don't think so

They obviously have sex because it feels good.  But that shouldn't be an excuse.  If you went into a candy store and started eating the food, yes, it would feel good.  But, as with any actions, there are consequences.  You can't just tell the police officer, "Well, I'd rather not pay the fine...I just did it because it was pleasurable."  The world doesn't work that way.  It never has, and it never will.

The constitution also protects a person's right to bodily autonomy.

Please explain to me the part that you infer that from. I happen to remember it saying that all men are CREATED (not born into being) equal, and they have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.  How will a fetus ever be able to pursue happiness if you kill it?

[Dascoo]

Yeah, and people who get hit by a train should not be treated, because they were irresponsible and they must live with the consequences of their actions. Right?

If they're stupid enough to go walk on traintracks, and ignore the fact that a train is coming towards them, they deserve death. I mean come on, even if you're wearing earphones and listeneing to some music, you're going to feel the vibrations in the ground...

The train is just an example, you are ignoring her point.

I know.....that wasn't really a serious post.

But anyways, ending a life so you won't have to go through pain is something different.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Therefore making abortion illegal because "it is a result of sex" punishes women for having sex.

No, it's punishing them for being too small-minded to think of the results of their actions.  If you know that people get pregnant by having sex, and you don't want to be pregnant, maybe you shouldn't be having sex.  You know that jumping off of a building will result in you hitting the ground and getting seriously injured.  Yes, there are medical procedures to fix the injury, but it doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't jump off buildings.

[LtKillroy]

There is a difference, once again, between curing STDs and abortion. One is saving a life, the other is taking one. It does not punish them for having sex, punishing would be putting them in jail for having sex, it just makes it so they can't dodge their responisibility for another life.

[Smegma]

she gets pregnant when she does not want to be pregnant then she is irresposible, does not count for rapes.
Next she determines her options, such as giving birth and putting her child up for adoption, raising him/her herself or with her partner she decides she doesn't want to be responsible and give birth so she takes the easy way out and kills a fetus

sounds pretty irresponsible to me.

Yeah, and people who contract STDs from having sex or get hit by a train should not be treated, because they were irresponsible and they must live with the consequences of their actions. Right?

Exactly right.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

According to your logic, it should be illegal to treat people with STDs and people who were hit by a train.

Let's put this into context.  If the person who got hit by a train required a heart transplant from a living person (effectively killing that person), then yes, it should be illegal to treat them.

[Dascoo]

After some thinking I have found the perfect solution for this abortion problem! Eating fetuses! It's obviously right because killing animals is right because we eat them. Eating fetuses is going to make abortion right too! I am a genius!

They do that in china.

[Xxypher]

I missed a lot of the argument D=
Well, at least I got to see THE SIMPSONS MOVIE.

[Anna]

Yikes, three pages of posts while I was gone.  This will be long.

I'm against it.  You may not like what happened to you, but can still take the steps to ensure that your child has a happy, or at least tolerable, life.

Then why did you bring up the issue of consensual vs. non-consensual sex? If it's really all about the fetus, consent or lack of it isn't relevant.

I was responding to someone else's post, that's why.  Sooner or later you'll need to learn that not all of my replies are directed towards you.

I didn't realize that I'm not allowed to respond to statements that are not directed towards me. Don't speak unless spoken to, eh?

Most of us here are males. Yeah it's easy for us to say that a woman should give brith to a child. But what would you do? You wussies couldn't even stand the pain of the birth. And don't get me started on the 9 months the woman has to endure with the bulging stomach, swollen feet and hormone disorders. Just try to put yourself in a womans position and just think about it.

I'm pretty sure the only female on the forum has never been pregnant either.  We're just as qualified as she is to talk about it.

Not only have you not ever been pregnant, but you don't even have the possibility of becoming pregnant. Ever. As a female person of reproductive age I think I am slightly more qualified than you are.

We kill animals all the time, for our own convenience, and I'm sure they feel pain and want to live. What makes human life so special?

We don't make the rules; we just follow them.  If a murder of one human is wrong, then it's always wrong.  Human life may be underdeveloped, deformed, mentally lacking, or physically handicapped, but it's still human.

Actually if you look at the definition of murder, abortion isn't in there.

But since you think abortion is murder, how much jail time do you think the woman should get?

Do you really believe abortion isn't taking a life? If you don't, I point to the rose example, if you do, how can you say it should be legal.

Abortion results in the death of the fetus. Are you saying that ripping roses out of the ground should be illegal because it results in the death of the rose?

You say it is the woman's right, but everyone in the United States has equal rights and deserves to live.

But why is it ok to kill animals and not fetuses? Is there something about human life that makes it more special than other forms of life?

So now you admit that fetuses are human life? And you're still in favor of destroying them? Please, just say what you mean.  If you really feel that humans are worth no more than animals or even PLANTS, for crying out loud, you have a very sad view of the world.

Of course fetuses are human life. It lives, and it's genetically human. Same with cancer.

I think that humans are different from animals because of the degree of self-awareness we are able to achieve. A fetus does not develop self-awareness until some time after birth. At the early stages, which is when most abortions happen, it's not much better than a plant.

1. No, I think you fail to see the metaphor there, you are killing a human, which, last time I checked, was illegal, so abortion should be too

But killing a human isn't always illegal. For example, it is legal to kill someone in self-defense.

Yes, in order to SAVE YOUR OWN LIFE.  The last I checked, pregnancy wasn't life threatening.

Pregnancy is more dangerous than abortion. (Unless you count back-alley abortions. If abortion was made illegal, many women would choose to risk death from unsafe abortion rather than continue being pregnant. They are mostly dirty sluts though so they deserve to die.)

LTKILLROY or whatever just explain why all those teenagers(including me and prolly you) want to have sex? Because they want a child? I don't think so

They obviously have sex because it feels good.  But that shouldn't be an excuse.  If you went into a candy store and started eating the food, yes, it would feel good.  But, as with any actions, there are consequences.  You can't just tell the police officer, "Well, I'd rather not pay the fine...I just did it because it was pleasurable."  The world doesn't work that way.  It never has, and it never will.

Making abortion illegal will not stop people from having sex. The world doesn't work that way. It never has, and it never will. Your analogy sucks anyway because having sex is not illegal.

The constitution also protects a person's right to bodily autonomy.

Please explain to me the part that you infer that from. I happen to remember it saying that all men are CREATED (not born into being) equal, and they have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

See here.

How will a fetus ever be able to pursue happiness if you kill it?

It has to be able to survive without a uterus before it can pursue happiness.

[LtKillroy]

Well, all I have to say is I'm done with this topic, it is going nowhere fast and now is just plain arguing. I leave with a sum-up of everything I've said: Killing a human, no matter how "self-aware" is immoral, unjust, and wrong.

[Anna]

I think there are four sides here.

1. Bodily autonomy has more value than fetal life. Therefore abortion should always be legal.

2. Fetal life has more value than bodily autonomy. Therefore abortion should always be illegal.

3. Bodily autonomy has more value than fetal life except in cases where the woman consented to sex, in which case this right is revoked as punishment. Therefore, abortion should be legal only in cases of rape.

4. Fetal life has more value than bodily autonomy. The fact that it punishes the sluts is a nice bonus. Therefore abortion should always be illegal.

If you picked 1, you are morally and logically superior. You get 100 points!
If you picked 2, you are morally consistent, but still wrong. You get 0 points.
If you picked 3 or 4, you are a woman-hating asshat. -100 points!

Unfortunately, {LAW} Gamer_2k4, LtKillroy, and a-4-year-old all seem to fall under number four.

[Twistkill]

I think there are four sides here.

1. Bodily autonomy has more value than fetal life. Therefore abortion should always be legal.

2. Fetal life has more value than bodily autonomy. Therefore abortion should always be illegal.

3. Bodily autonomy has more value than fetal life except in cases where the woman consented to sex, in which case this right is revoked as punishment. Therefore, abortion should be legal only in cases of rape.

4. Fetal life has more value than bodily autonomy. The fact that it punishes the sluts is a nice bonus. Therefore abortion should always be illegal.

If you picked 1, you are morally and logically superior. You get 100 points!
If you picked 2, you are morally consistent, but still wrong. You get 0 points.
If you picked 3 or 4, you are a woman-hating asshat. -100 points!

Unfortunately, {LAW} Gamer_2k4, LtKillroy, and a-4-year-old all seem to fall under number four.

Er... I suppose I'm number 2- Look, what does this have to do with anything? Why do you suddenly label people who have a differing viewpoint than yours women-hating asshats?

[Anna]

Therefore making abortion illegal because "it is a result of sex" punishes women for having sex.

No, it's punishing them for being too small-minded to think of the results of their actions.  If you know that people get pregnant by having sex, and you don't want to be pregnant, maybe you shouldn't be having sex.  You know that jumping off of a building will result in you hitting the ground and getting seriously injured.  Yes, there are medical procedures to fix the injury, but it doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't jump off buildings.

I don't think it's the role of the government to punish people for being small-minded.

Date Posted: August 06, 2007, 11:00:37 PM

I think there are four sides here.

1. Bodily autonomy has more value than fetal life. Therefore abortion should always be legal.

2. Fetal life has more value than bodily autonomy. Therefore abortion should always be illegal.

3. Bodily autonomy has more value than fetal life except in cases where the woman consented to sex, in which case this right is revoked as punishment. Therefore, abortion should be legal only in cases of rape.

4. Fetal life has more value than bodily autonomy. The fact that it punishes the sluts is a nice bonus. Therefore abortion should always be illegal.

If you picked 1, you are morally and logically superior. You get 100 points!
If you picked 2, you are morally consistent, but still wrong. You get 0 points.
If you picked 3 or 4, you are a woman-hating asshat. -100 points!

Unfortunately, {LAW} Gamer_2k4, LtKillroy, and a-4-year-old all seem to fall under number four.

Er... I suppose I'm number 2- Look, what does this have to do with anything? Why do you suddenly label people who have a differing viewpoint than yours women-hating asshats?

When people use the "sex for pleasure? no abortion for you!/punish teh sluts!" argument, what they want is to either force women to not have sex, or force them to be pregnant/give birth against their will if they do have sex. Since people are not going to stop having sex anytime soon, what this means is that they want to reduce women to walking incubators; this is the patriarchally approved position of women in society. I think that is a good reason to label someone a woman-hating asshat.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Yikes, three pages of posts while I was gone.  This will be long.

I'm against it.  You may not like what happened to you, but can still take the steps to ensure that your child has a happy, or at least tolerable, life.

Then why did you bring up the issue of consensual vs. non-consensual sex? If it's really all about the fetus, consent or lack of it isn't relevant.

I was responding to someone else's post, that's why.  Sooner or later you'll need to learn that not all of my replies are directed towards you.

I didn't realize that I'm not allowed to respond to statements that are not directed towards me. Don't speak unless spoken to, eh?

Not quite.  But your question implied that my post was irrelevant.  And in the case of our debate, it was.  But as a reply to someone else's post, it wasn't.

We kill animals all the time, for our own convenience, and I'm sure they feel pain and want to live. What makes human life so special?

We don't make the rules; we just follow them.  If a murder of one human is wrong, then it's always wrong.  Human life may be underdeveloped, deformed, mentally lacking, or physically handicapped, but it's still human.

Actually if you look at the definition of murder, abortion isn't in there.

But since you think abortion is murder, how much jail time do you think the woman should get?

Dunno.  Whatever the punishment for accomplish to a murder is, I guess (the doctor being the murderer).

I think that humans are different from animals because of the degree of self-awareness we are able to achieve. A fetus does not develop self-awareness until some time after birth. At the early stages, which is when most abortions happen, it's not much better than a plant.

But by that logic, it's also completely ethical to kill babies for a short while after they're born.  Are you for that as well?

Pregnancy is more dangerous than abortion.

Yes, in the same way that a bee sting is more dangerous than a splinter.

(They are mostly dirty sluts though so they deserve to die.)

Don't put words in my mouth.  Respond to what I say, not to how you think I feel.

They obviously have sex because it feels good.  But that shouldn't be an excuse.  If you went into a candy store and started eating the food, yes, it would feel good.  But, as with any actions, there are consequences.  You can't just tell the police officer, "Well, I'd rather not pay the fine...I just did it because it was pleasurable."  The world doesn't work that way.  It never has, and it never will.

Making abortion illegal will not stop people from having sex. The world doesn't work that way. It never has, and it never will. Your analogy sucks anyway because having sex is not illegal.

Oh snap.  My analogy "sucks."  I know, it's hard to compete with yours, where getting pregnant is like getting hit by a train.

The constitution also protects a person's right to bodily autonomy.

Please explain to me the part that you infer that from. I happen to remember it saying that all men are CREATED (not born into being) equal, and they have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

See here.

Ever heard of the Dred Scott case? The Supreme Court ruled that black people could never become citizens of the United States, and that Congress had no authority to ban slavery.  Does that make it right? Obviously this discussion, from page one, has never been about legality.  We're debating the ethicality of the matter.

[Twistkill]

When people use the "sex for pleasure? no abortion for you!/punish teh sluts!" argument, what they want is to either force women to not have sex, or force them to be pregnant/give birth against their will if they do have sex. Since people are not going to stop having sex anytime soon, what this means is that they want to reduce women to walking incubators; this is the patriarchally approved position of women in society. I think that is a good reason to label someone a woman-hating asshat.

I see the point you're making, and it is quite hard to get a middle ground here. See, I'm against abortion for the moral aspect of killing human life, but you're promoting it for a different reason, and thus causes the conflicts that we've seen so far.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

When people use the "sex for pleasure? no abortion for you!/punish teh sluts!" argument, what they want is to either force women to not have sex, or force them to be pregnant/give birth against their will if they do have sex. Since people are not going to stop having sex anytime soon, what this means is that they want to reduce women to walking incubators; this is the patriarchally approved position of women in society. I think that is a good reason to label someone a woman-hating asshat.

Saying that opposing abortion makes you a woman hater is analogous to saying that proponents of gay marriage hate straight people.  You can twist and exaggerate my words all you want, but my opposition to abortion has always been that I consider it murder.

But yeah, Twistkill is right.  You're supporting abortion for a different reason than why we're opposing it, which makes things tricky.

Date Posted: August 06, 2007, 10:34:57 PM

If you picked 3 or 4, you are a woman-hating asshat. -100 points!

You don't see ANY hypocrisy in by that style of accusation?

Oh, and there's also the whole ad hominem thing, which makes for poor debating.

Also, if you truly feel that those are the sides of the argument, maybe you should read the posts a little more, since you're obviously assuming that our positions on abortion are all relative to your stance on it.

[Anna]

I think that humans are different from animals because of the degree of self-awareness we are able to achieve. A fetus does not develop self-awareness until some time after birth. At the early stages, which is when most abortions happen, it's not much better than a plant.

But by that logic, it's also completely ethical to kill babies for a short while after they're born.  Are you for that as well?

No, because after they are born they no longer require the use of the uterus. The woman can give the baby up for adoption if she doesn't want it.

They obviously have sex because it feels good.  But that shouldn't be an excuse.  If you went into a candy store and started eating the food, yes, it would feel good.  But, as with any actions, there are consequences.  You can't just tell the police officer, "Well, I'd rather not pay the fine...I just did it because it was pleasurable."  The world doesn't work that way.  It never has, and it never will.

Making abortion illegal will not stop people from having sex. The world doesn't work that way. It never has, and it never will. Your analogy sucks anyway because having sex is not illegal.

Oh snap.  My analogy "sucks."  I know, it's hard to compete with yours, where getting pregnant is like getting hit by a train.

Too bad I wasn't comparing getting pregnant to getting hit by a train.

Date Posted: August 07, 2007, 12:27:29 AM

When people use the "sex for pleasure? no abortion for you!/punish teh sluts!" argument, what they want is to either force women to not have sex, or force them to be pregnant/give birth against their will if they do have sex. Since people are not going to stop having sex anytime soon, what this means is that they want to reduce women to walking incubators; this is the patriarchally approved position of women in society. I think that is a good reason to label someone a woman-hating asshat.

Saying that opposing abortion makes you a woman hater is analogous to saying that proponents of gay marriage hate straight people.  You can twist and exaggerate my words all you want, but my opposition to abortion has always been that I consider it murder.

I didn't say opposing abortion makes you a woman hater. I said that opposing abortion on the grounds that women deserve to be punished for having sex for reasons other than procreation makes you a woman hater. If it was really all about the life of the fetus, the sluttiness of the woman would never have come up.

But yeah, Twistkill is right.  You're supporting abortion for a different reason than why we're opposing it, which makes things tricky.

You can't just ignore the rights of the woman. The fact is that men cannot have their right to bodily autonomy violated by pregnancy. If women lose the right to bodily autonomy when they become pregnant, then they can't be said to have equal rights with men. The issue is not fetal life vs. fetal death, it's women's rights vs. fetal rights.

Date Posted: August 06, 2007, 10:34:57 PM

If you picked 3 or 4, you are a woman-hating asshat. -100 points!

You don't see ANY hypocrisy in by that style of accusation?

Oh, and there's also the whole ad hominem thing, which makes for poor debating.

I tend to get a little pissed off when people talk about wanting to deny me my rights.

Also, if you truly feel that those are the sides of the argument, maybe you should read the posts a little more, since you're obviously assuming that our positions on abortion are all relative to your stance on it.

What other sides are there? Adding a few more exceptions into the mix wouldn't make much difference.

[Shivorken]

Too much passion going into this debate!

Anyway, my opinion is abortions are absolutely and always will be humanely immoral but, it is inevitable in some cases where the child ( if not aborted ) will have to live a life without any parental love and support. This will destroy the child and if he/she does does not suicide early in life from all the heartache and misfortune, there is a likely chance they will become people to commit crime as they grow older.

If you choose to not have an abortion and abandon the child, then you sir, are an 'asshat'.