Abortion

[Anna]

[SNIP]

The same is true with rape.  You may not like what happened to you, but unfortunately, you're now a mother, and it's your responsibility, not through your actions, but through someone else's, to take care of your child.

If it's consensual, you have to take responsibility for your actions.  If it's rape, you have to take responsibility for someone else's actions.  But either way, a baby is a responsibility, BECAUSE it has value.

Now you've dropped the "for your actions" part of the "taking responsibility" argument.

Note the highlighted part.  I didn't drop anything.

Your argument turned into to two separate arguments; you're saying a woman who had consensual sex should be treated differently from a woman who was raped. This has nothing to do with the fetus. You're trying to use abortion to enforce your personal moral beliefs about sex.

But they do say (analogous to consensual sex), "You should have been watching, you should have been paying attention."

That's analogous to using birth control.

Saying that it's a woman's fault that she got pregnant while having protected sex is as ridiculous as saying that a person who crosses the street carefully is at fault for getting hit by a car.

[Smegma]

You're trying to use abortion to enforce your personal moral beliefs about sex.

So is everyone who has an opinion about abortion.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Your argument turned into to two separate arguments; you're saying a woman who had consensual sex should be treated differently from a woman who was raped. This has nothing to do with the fetus. You're trying to use abortion to enforce your personal moral beliefs about sex.

Against my better judgment, I'll have to ask you to enlighten me.  What do I think the treatment should be for a woman who had consensual sex, what do I think the treatment should be for a woman who was raped, and how do I feel differently about the two?

[Anna]

Yeah, but nobody says "if you didn't want to get hit by a car, you shouldn't have crossed the street."

But they do say (analogous to consensual sex), "You should have been watching, you should have been paying attention."  Or (analogous to rape), "That driver was out of control.  There was nothing you could have done."

Date Posted: August 07, 2007, 04:05:44 PM

I don't know if anyone mentioned what happens to the child.. if the child is born to an unwilling parent - a parent unwilling to care of the child. Did you consider that, or did you just get lost on whose fault it is when a woman gets pregnant.

Didn't get lost at all.  It's called adoption.  And even if the child has lousy parents, they are still capable of accomplishing great things.  For example, the man who performed the first heart transplant (I forget his name) came from a less-than-spectacular community.  But he applied himself and didn't let his poor childhood experience hold him back.

So how many kids are you planning to adopt?

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

So how many kids are you planning to adopt?

Probably none, because I'll be busy with my own family.

[Anna]

Your argument turned into to two separate arguments; you're saying a woman who had consensual sex should be treated differently from a woman who was raped. This has nothing to do with the fetus. You're trying to use abortion to enforce your personal moral beliefs about sex.

Normally I'd be against this, but enlighten me.  What do I think the treatment should be for a woman who had consensual sex, what do I think the treatment should be for a woman who was raped, and how do I feel differently about the two?

As far as I can tell, you think a woman who had consensual sex is more deserving of forced pregnancy than a woman who was raped, and this is because you think sex for pleasure is bad and worthy of punishment.

So how many kids are you planning to adopt?

Probably none, because I'll be busy with my own family.

So if abortion is made illegal, who would adopt all those kids who would otherwise have been aborted?? It's almost like you only care about them as long as they're not already born.

[Smegma]

So if abortion is made illegal, who would adopt all those kids who would otherwise have been aborted??

No one, they'd go towards feeding the bigger populace.

[BondJamesBond]

So how many kids are you planning to adopt?

Probably none, because I'll be busy with my own family.

I rest my case? There are at least 1.2 million homeless children in the United States alone. Every kid that is put into the adoption center costs tax payers. Besides that, consider the emotional and psychological distress the children experience?

You talk about abortion being some easy way out of responsibility... But you say just toss unwanted children into an adoption center and hope they can make something out of themselves.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

As far as I can tell, you think a woman who had consensual sex is more deserving of forced pregnancy than a woman who was raped, and this is because you think sex for pleasure is bad and worthy of punishment.

Of course I feel that way.  It's the same as saying a guy who intentionally cut off his hand is less deserving of a prosthetic than a soldier who required an amputation because of a shrapnel wound.  I still think that the amputees should be given the same treatment, just as I feel that both women should have the baby (to put it in your words, "should be treated the same way").

I feel that way, not because sex outside of marriage is wrong (I believe it is, but it's not the basis for my argument), but instead because people are willing to have sex frivolously, not thinking about the future, caring about the future, or planning for the future.  If you can have sex three times a day, seven days a week without getting pregnant, okay.  I'm not going to stop you because 1) It's not my business, and 2) Even if it was, you wouldn't listen.  But as soon as you have a human life growing inside of you, it's your job to care for the child.

Saying that (and I wish I had thought of this earlier) a forced pregnancy is punishment is the same as saying that an STD is punishment.  I'm all in favor of treating STDs, if possible.  And if there was a method of dealing with a pregnancy that took the strain off of a woman but preserved the baby's life, I'd be in favor of that as well.  I don't think that a woman should stay pregnant to punish her; I think she should stay pregnant so that the child will live.

So if abortion is made illegal, who would adopt all those kids who would otherwise have been aborted?? It's almost like you only care about them as long as they're not already born.

Probably someone who was unable to have their own children would go for adoption, or even homosexual couples.  Or people with excess money and the means to do so.  Or even charities that have been designed to do that exact task.

You talk about abortion being some easy way out of responsibility... But you say just toss unwanted children into an adoption center and hope they can make something out of themselves.

Is it better to give them a chance to make something of themselves, or to consider it a foregone conclusion?

[Anna]

As far as I can tell, you think a woman who had consensual sex is more deserving of forced pregnancy than a woman who was raped, and this is because you think sex for pleasure is bad and worthy of punishment.

Of course I feel that way.  It's the same as saying a guy who intentionally cut off his hand is less deserving of a prosthetic than a soldier who required an amputation because of a shrapnel wound.

I don't think it's right to pass judgement on people like that.

  I still think that the amputees should be given the same treatment, just as I feel that both women should have the baby (to put it in your words, "should be treated the same way").

Not really, considering that only the women who consented to sex get the "it's your fault, deal with it" line. It's a very malicious thing to say IMO.

I feel that way, not because sex outside of marriage is wrong (I believe it is, but it's not the basis for my argument), but instead because people are willing to have sex frivolously, not thinking about the future, caring about the future, or planning for the future.  If you can have sex three times a day, seven days a week without getting pregnant, okay.  I'm not going to stop you because 1) It's not my business, and 2) Even if it was, you wouldn't listen.  But as soon as you have a human life growing inside of you, it's your job to care for the child.

Saying that (and I wish I had thought of this earlier) a forced pregnancy is punishment is the same as saying that an STD is punishment.  I'm all in favor of treating STDs, if possible.  And if there was a method of dealing with a pregnancy that took the strain off of a woman but preserved the baby's life, I'd be in favor of that as well.  I don't think that a woman should stay pregnant to punish her; I think she should stay pregnant so that the child will live.

I understand that the fact that you value the life of the fetus is your main argument against abortion. But the very first thing you said in response to me was "Aside from that, if you're going to have sex (the evolutionary goal of which is to produce offspring), you'd better be prepared for the consequences." That's your anti-sex bias showing. It's not your place to tell people what the consequences should be for doing things you disagree with. And since it only applies to women, it makes you look like you don't like women very much.

[a-4-year-old]

Yeah, the problem with that argument is that we end up saying that because you constantly bitch about "I have rights"

You pissed your right to whatever it is you are talking about away when you conceived a baby, The fetus has the right to live and you don't get to kill it. I don't bring it up because I am somehow a horrible sexist alpha male as you somehow see everyone who has a differing position on abortion.

[urraka]

This topic isn't going anywhere, since from one side {LAW}Gamer_2k4 and a-4-year-old cares about the fetus and Anna doesn't.

What I don't get is... why do they care about the fetus? It's not really a human been. You can think of it just like any other living entity.

There is also the people who thinks abortion is only valid in case of rapes... well, that's only bullshit. If you are against abortion it's because you care about the fetus. People who say abotion is valid in such cases don't realize that they don't give a damn about the fetus.

And there's also people like me who don't give a fuck about anything.

[Smegma]

Fuck HUMAN BEENS!


Plus, it will be a human (or most likely), abortion makes certain that it wont.

[SirJamesaford]

LMAO... well ya got a point perroAzul, a fetus isnt a human been....im certain of that.

[Anna]

I don't think they care that much about the fetus. It's my suspicion that they just care so little for women that the life of the fetus is worth more by default.

Anyway I found a good post about the pro-choice position: Why I’m Pro-Choice

It's interesting that abortion and teen pregnancy rates are lower in countries where abortion is legal, people have access to birth control and comprehensive sex education, and sex is considered normal.

[Dascoo]

So if abortion is made illegal, who would adopt all those kids who would otherwise have been aborted?? It's almost like you only care about them as long as they're not already born.

Gay couples. Alot of new gay couples. My mom is the nanny of a chinese boy adopted by two gay men....Also straight couples enable to reproduce, so they go for adopting a child.

[frogboy]

so your wife turn fat and your vag gets wide just so you can give away some kid that you should've killed off legally? or maybe the infection from the coathanger because you can't kill the baby legally will cut into your medical bills since communist healthcare systems are also unethical.

[jap_man]

Why can't you just allow women to make their own decisions with their own lives just like how people make the decision to smoke or drink or to live certain lifestyles.

Because she's also making her own decision with someone else's life, and that's wrong.

A Fetus isn't human, nor is it "life" at the stage that it's in. It is part of a woman and she should have the right to do whatever she feels like with it, moral or not.

when you think about what can be done with aborted fetuses (ie. stem cell research) it can serve a use which can go towards helping people.

That's like saying it's alright to kill mentally challenged people so we can dissect and study their brains in order to help others in the future.  People don't have abortions because they want to further stem cell research (except in South Park).

No, because mentally challenged people are actually alive and as long as they have consciousness, can interact with other's they deserve and should remain alive.
I'm not sure how you misinterpreted my argument but what I'm meaning to say is if fetuses are already being aborted and people are so pissed off about the "right's of the fetus" (which is absolute bullshit mind you) and the fact that we are taking away a "life", that "life" that was taken away can be put to some use. Just like how some people when they die, donate their bodies to scientific research. I'm in no ways saying that abortions should be done with the sole intention of fueling stem cell research, just like people who donate their bodies to science don't die with the sole intention of donating themselves to science.

Also Law gamer, if in the future you have a girlfriend or fiance or even a wife who unexpectedly got pregnant, during a very fast, very busy time of your life (for both you and your fiance) I guess it's up to you what you want to do and only you. I can't tell you what you can and can't do. Just like how if I or anybody else for that matter was in the same situation you have no right to tell what I can and can't do.

[andrelie]

ok... i dont know what we are talking about here... can somebody please tell me? (short is better then long!!!! )

[Smegma]

A Fetus isn't human, nor is it "life" at the stage that it's in. It is part of a woman and she should have the right to do whatever she feels like with it, moral or not.

This argument is moot because they don't care whether its a human or it looks like a pig fetus at whatever ****ing age. Thing is, if not aborted, it has a much higher chance of being a living human being. I can't see why you people can't grasp the concept of FORESIGHT, or maybe you can.

Once again, I'm not against abortion, but this is just how it should be viewed.


Its like, if butterflies are endangered but you are allowed to hunt and killer caterpillars and cacoons because "They aren't butterflies".