Author Topic: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?  (Read 21906 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mancer

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 285
  • Legacy of Poontage
Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« on: August 23, 2007, 03:22:21 pm »
This has been bothering me for a while now, but I think that grenades might be overpowered. It isnt the damage they deal that I am concerned with, its the rate at which you can throw them.

Let me elaborate:

Rather than take skill to aim with a grenade, often times most players just spam them as soon as their ammo is empty. Dropping off 4 grenades in less than a second is a lot of players last defense towards someone who is rushing them. Not saying this tactic is 'illegal' or anything, but doing something like this really takes away the skill from grenades.

Why is it that most or nearly all of the kills/deaths in a game of Soldat are from grenades? My opinion is that the rate of fire for grenades should be lengthened by about a half second/a whole second. Why? Doing this actually returns skill to the grenades, people will be forced to learn how to use them correctly, rather than bash that E button as fast as you can to spam them all over the place.
I have a Mac so I can't play with you guys no more :(
(psst MM make a Mac version)

Offline JonWood007

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 292
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2007, 03:34:44 pm »
IMO grenades are fine as it is. I die more to M79s than I do to grenades.

Offline LtKillroy

  • Flagrunner
  • ****
  • Posts: 779
  • Killroy was here
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2007, 03:38:50 pm »
Nades are fine becuase of the fact that you get 5 max, and that's only on some servers. Now back in 1.2.1 (I think) when you could have 12 max, not that was crazy. Nades are fine, nade haters bug me sometimes.
L'audace, l'audace, toujours l'audace

Offline Mancer

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 285
  • Legacy of Poontage
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2007, 04:07:50 pm »
12 max was a bug, and it was definently was not the standard.
I have a Mac so I can't play with you guys no more :(
(psst MM make a Mac version)

Offline Blackout

  • Major(1)
  • Posts: 13
  • "To Punish And Enslave"
    • Delta Covenant CZ Clan
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2007, 04:38:57 pm »
Nothing wrong with grenades in my opinion, learn to dodge them, or kill your opponent faster.

Offline Chariot

  • Flagrunner
  • ****
  • Posts: 604
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2007, 05:35:22 pm »
I take pride in my ability to make direct hits with a single nade when I need too. Of course, they don't always register, but if it's a close-up one-on-one and I run out of ammo, I can toss out a single nade and hit the enemy. People just need to practice being good with them, rather than shooting them out every which way.
Vidi Vici Veni
I saw, I conquered, I came

Offline jbigz

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 334
  • Tasty
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2007, 06:23:12 pm »
Nades sure do pack a whollop, but I think they are fair. If something is so unfair and everyone else does it... why not exploit it yourself? I always ask myself that when people think a gun is unbalanced... :P

Offline JonWood007

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 292
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2007, 06:39:03 pm »
Well the thing is with nades is that no matter who you are, no matter what gun you use, you always have nades at your disposal. Plus they are limited.

Offline Jordak

  • Major(1)
  • Posts: 18
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2007, 07:19:06 pm »
I would say that the easiest ways to fix this are just to play in servers that have max grenades of   2-3 and not too many nade-kits near the opening of a vertical tunnel (so that someone can not continuously spam them down the entrance)

Offline a-4-year-old

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1918
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2007, 09:01:54 pm »
Grenades: You can't really consider them "overpowered" because there is no weapon to compare it to because everyone has it. So even if you made it a super nuke it wouldn't matter because it isn't overpowered.

All the guns have been getting damage reductions, more bink and more movement acc and the grenades stayed mostly the same. They need to be knocked down a level so someone might actually get a kill with a gun.
If we hit the bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. -Zapp Brannigan

Offline mar77a

  • Global Moderator
  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1295
  • mad
    • random stuffs
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #10 on: August 23, 2007, 09:12:23 pm »
IMO if you're going to die you usually have only one or no grenades left.

Offline Poop

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
    • SCTFL
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2007, 09:15:35 pm »
While its true that nades are seperate in relation to weapons and thus cannot be called overpowered since everyone has equal access to them. But there is a  problem where nades are currently getting a tremendous percentage of in-game kills, especially in clanwars. Currently, the standard amount of nades in clanwars is 3. This means you start with 1 and get 2 with a nade-pack, not many nades at all, however grenades are still getting around 25% of kills in clanwars. This is a really high amount IMO and if possible should be attempted to be lowered.

Quote
Why is it that most or nearly all of the kills/deaths in a game of Soldat are from grenades? My opinion is that the rate of fire for grenades should be lengthened by about a half second/a whole second. Why? Doing this actually returns skill to the grenades, people will be forced to learn how to use them correctly, rather than bash that E button as fast as you can to spam them all over the place.

I disagree. Nade-spamming is not nearly a problem compared to people who use nades intelligently, and can generally get 2+ kills with only 3 nades. Someone whose spamming will get max 1, and most of the time 0.

Most people wont like this, but I believe I suggested it before also. A good way of balancing nades is to make them like secondary weapons. Instead of being able to throw nades while you are shooting a primary, you should "switch" to nades just like to switch to secondaries, and then throw them. This may be bad for the interface since then you will 3 "forms" of weapons, nades, secondaries and primaries. However I think it is something to consider to balance the current power of nades, and hopefully make nades less effective like they used to be.

Nades used to be approximately 17% of kills pre-1.3(I think it was 1.3). And this was with a 4 nade limit, now with 3 they account for around 25% of kills. The reason they increased was because of nade-lag being fixed in 1.3
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 09:18:14 pm by Poop »
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstien

Offline ElGato

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 381
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #12 on: August 23, 2007, 09:18:00 pm »
Not what this topic is about but I hate the way the grenades work. Aim for the feet and don't throw fast, dumb. But as far as the speed at which you can throw them? Whatever, it is usually only done in an act of desperation and hardly works, aim is always the way to go.



Edit:

Most people wont like this, but I believe I suggested it before also. A good way of balancing nades is to make them like secondary weapons. Instead of being able to throw nades while you are shooting a primary, you should "switch" to nades just like to switch to secondaries, and then throw them. This may be bad for the interface since then you will 3 "forms" of weapons, nades, secondaries and primaries. However I think it is something to consider to balance the current power of nades, and hopefully make nades less effective like they used to be.

Honestly Poop in practice I don't see that working like you think... There is no way to be positive but I think people would use nades all at once with this thus leading to more nade kills. I know for me since I can throw grenades when I please a lot of my kills are the result of shooting them after I have already hit with a grenade, not that many are grenade alone. But who knows.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 09:22:18 pm by ElGato »
[fist] Black Powa

Offline excruciator

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1216
  • Asshole by Nature
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #13 on: August 23, 2007, 10:31:48 pm »
you brought up a good point mancer
now days, guns are losing grounds, they become less and less important.

let me explain..
many players, mostly experienced players, they no longer kill their opponent by pure gun skills.they chuck a nade and then fire a burst of 3-4 bullets, which would result instant kill. This tactic is overused by automatic users, mainly to achieve a speedy kill that normally a auto could not achieve. Very effective yet extremely annoying. There is no difference from a short range m79 kill.(yet nobody complained this combo)

I played many experienced players, personally,  they SUCK at mid-longrange shootings, where the gun skill are involved.
this combo allows a bad gunner to achieve the same amount of kills as a experienced player.
which is very unfair both in the players prospective and in the game's prospective(Its SHOOTING game, not a nade-chuckling game)

Quote
Quote
Most people wont like this, but I believe I suggested it before also. A good way of balancing nades is to make them like secondary weapons. Instead of being able to throw nades while you are shooting a primary, you should "switch" to nades just like to switch to secondaries, and then throw them. This may be bad for the interface since then you will 3 "forms" of weapons, nades, secondaries and primaries. However I think it is something to consider to balance the current power of nades, and hopefully make nades less effective like they used to be.

Honestly Poop in practice I don't see that working like you think... There is no way to be positive but I think people would use nades all at once with this thus leading to more nade kills. I know for me since I can throw grenades when I please a lot of my kills are the result of shooting them after I have already hit with a grenade, not that many are grenade alone. But who knows.

a nade can only achieve 1 hit kill when hit on the legs, this works very well if the target is above you, and it would not work if the target is below.

so lets think, if a player has 4 nades, and he chuck them all, 2 nades makes 1 kill each, and the other 2 nades makes 1 kill, which brings the kill count to 3

now lets imagine a guy that chucks nades + a burst of 3-4 bullets, if all nades hits, that guy would make 4 kills, 1 more than the spammer.

so in the end the power of nade was lowered. which means the systems works
 
« Last Edit: August 23, 2007, 10:33:55 pm by excruciator »
Always remember the succubus...

Offline Poop

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 333
    • SCTFL
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2007, 12:06:34 am »
Quote
There is no way to be positive but I think people would use nades all at once with this thus leading to more nade kills. I know for me since I can throw grenades when I please a lot of my kills are the result of shooting them after I have already hit with a grenade, not that many are grenade alone. But who knows.

Although you disagreed with my system, you seem to have posted exactly the reasons why it should be implemented. If you throw all nades at once, you will get less kills than if you throw them smartly and then pick people off with your primary(As I stated in my post and as you stated also). When you hit someone with nade and it brings them to 1% health, then you shoot 1 ak shot and kill him, that is essentially a nade kill, even though it shows up on the console as ak.

Also you seem to disregard the fact the time it would take to switch over to nades, in which amount of time you can be dead already (just think of all those times you just died before throwing off that knife). Many people when they see someone will automatically throw a nade or all nades, with this feature that wont be possible, so what do you do, switch to nades or keep using primary? Theres a tradeoff.

If you think about it more deeply than you did Elgato, you will notice my suggestion will reduce the total amount of nade kills. Now only playtesting can show how much it reduces it by, but im just posting a basicsuggestion. Working out the details is MM's job  :D
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."
-Albert Einstien

Offline ChromedGun

  • Camper
  • ***
  • Posts: 252
  • Angel of Death
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2007, 01:58:41 am »
I sure hate nadespammers but there's really nothing to do about it in a weapons-balancing way.

Another thing I hate is when I'm trying to throw a grenade (holding 'E') and someone kills me, thus eliminating the grenade. BS. I think the grenade should atleast fall armed to the ground or something (like CS).
CS does what Poop suggested, a single slot for grenades. The thing is that this would drastically change gameplay as people are used to be able to chuck a nade or two down that tunnel or towards someone. If grenades would get themselves a single slot, I think that they should a little stronger, larger blast radius and so on.

Wait, singleslotted grenades = M79 for everyone?

@Kryp -- go buy some skills. use /command to bring up the commands.

Offline Clawbug

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1393
  • 1184!
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2007, 02:56:10 am »
You say they need no skill? Maybe the spamming, but you lose all your nades on it. Why the fuck you go too near the enemy, if you know heshe will spam them?

CTF situations: The first one who hits qwith grenade, will win the 1v1 situation. Unskilled? Learn to hit, you will be pro. Same applies to DM. Height difference is compensated with the thing which makes grenades to deal more damage on legs than it does to head.

I have never personally heard valid reasons for nadespamming being "lame". What about actually keeping distance....?
Fight! Win! Prevail!

Offline a-4-year-old

  • Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 1918
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2007, 06:41:24 am »
First the legshot thing makes no sense and hasn't been fixed for a while for such a well known glitch.

I don't think that the fate of the player should be completely resting on who gets the successful grenade. I also don't think that someone should be able to save themselves when they have no ammo and almost no health and they just toss a grenade and kill you immediately.

The gun almost becomes a sidearm for these people with 3 and 4 grenades, and that is just stupid.
If we hit the bullseye the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate. -Zapp Brannigan

Offline SirJamesaford

  • Flagrunner
  • ****
  • Posts: 763
  • SirJamesaford is still in the early Beta stage.
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2007, 07:07:20 am »
First the legshot thing makes no sense

Ive always wondered why its the legs that matter as opposed to the head...
And if the dam breaks open many years too soon
And if there is no room upon the hill
And if your head explodes with dark forebodings too
Ill see you on the dark side of the moon

Offline Spasm

  • Soldier
  • **
  • Posts: 241
  • Elite CTF Owner
    • Elite CTF
Re: Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2007, 07:16:16 am »
Grenades are grenades and should be as powerful as they are.  EVERYONE gets the same maximum amount of "power" regardless of what primary/secondary weapon you choose.
Owner/Founder- Elite CTF -  http://elitectf.com
OwnedVision - http://ownedvision.com
--An EliteCTF Production.
Snipe & Slice - Saw & Law - One Shots