Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?

[excruciator]

True, it is pretty hard for someone to throw a well placed nade. But then again, it seems that after you mastered the throw the gun skill are close to obsolete. You just have to learn to hit 3-4 bullets before blasting enemies away with nade. (You can just use HK if you want to skip the gun learning) Its more effective than gunning, also is easier than gunning.

Point out where I am wrong and I shall explain to you

I'm not going to spend time sifting thorugh your your flameing. But here is something for you to look at- Nades are not overpowered. Now please explain to me why they are not.

jeez If you can't point where my wrong you can just say so, don't worry it won't make you look more ignorant than you already are.

2 would be retarded because then it could not sadisfy people with cronic nade dependecy like you.
I know how you would play, I 1 on 1ed you,  you are very dependent on nade, and if you are ran out of nade Id say your skill is the same as a major. You can't make a kill with the gun!

A lot of my kills are made with my trusty Minimi. Infact that's one of the reasons why the nades aren't overpowered- I don't need to use nades to kill. I'm saying the nades are not overpowered because they are not overpowered; I wouldn't be a good Beta tester if I only buffed weapons that I personally use. Now it just looks like you are resorting to petty flaming instead of giving real facts.

Good, I like people that knows how to handle a gun well, and I respect that, the point is there are a lot more people out there that can't gun. Infact after you mastered nade you are fine. There is a lot of packs around so you dont have to worry about the supply, also you can at least make 2-3 kill before you die, hey! not many people can even get 2-3:1 KD ratio!!!

I flame because Lord cannot bring up a good arguement and he seems to question my credibility, sure my stats are guesses but they are based on my personal experiences and facts, The numbers might be wrong but the general idea behind it are not!

Also I flamed you SDFilm because you won't tell me where I'm wrong(won't tell me or CANT tell me) and you phrased it
in a way that seem that is my fault that you can't point out my mistakes, Putting the blame on me(which I have absolutely nothing to do with it)

[SDFilm]

you phrased it in a way that seem that is my fault that you can't point out my mistakes, Putting the blame on me(which I have absolutely nothing to do with it)

You are making something up and then claiming that you are being blamed for it. Why?

I've already pointed out where you are wrong or at least how the grenade is not overpowered. Would you like me to quote my posts for you?

But as you insist, please explain to me how.....

* Soldat secret revealed! - If you click in that hidden space that is labled "9" under the Barrett, you'll find a secret primary weapon! It's called the FN Minimi; but only a few soldat players know of it's existence, apparently.

no its actually;
Soldat secret revealed! - You dont have to learn how to aim a gun as long as you learn to how you throw nades!

You may have just been exaggerating, but even so, please explain how this statement is even similar to the truth.

[excruciator]

No, you are blaming me for the fact that you cant come up with an reasonable arguement, If you did, im sorry, can you say that again so I can answer your question.

I dont really know how to phrase it, Im just gonna say this, just go to a random DM server, and choose any automatic gun(since it tolerates error more than a semi HK would be a exellent choice because of its firing speed and spread, or minimi, very large clip, and good spread) and start spraying it, and throw nades right after 2-4 hits.

You'll see how effective it is and how easy it is for you to win a match. I mean I saw tons, literally tons of people like that getting kills after kills.

because nade can: deal a lot of dmg with relatively short interval, no need to swtich weapon for it, can be used with a primary contemporarily, relatively large clip(belt, whatever you might call it) and chance to 1 hit ko someone.

So basically its more effective you nade + gun combo someone than to gun someone down.  So...why learn something that is less effective and much harder??

[SDFilm]

No, you are blaming me for the fact that you cant come up with an reasonable arguement, If you did, im sorry, can you say that again so I can answer your question.

I can't blame you for that. It's simply impossible to be able to blame you for something that only ever happend in your head. As I said before- you are making something up and then claiming that you are being blamed for it. Why?

I dont really know how to phrase it, Im just gonna say this, just go to a random DM server, and choose any automatic gun(since it tolerates error more than a semi HK would be a exellent choice because of its firing speed and spread, or minimi, very large clip, and good spread) and start spraying it, and throw nades right after 2-4 hits.

You'll see how effective it is and how easy it is for you to win a match. I mean I saw tons, literally tons of people like that getting kills after kills.

because nade can: deal a lot of dmg with relatively short interval, no need to swtich weapon for it, can be used with a primary contemporarily, relatively large clip(belt, whatever you might call it) and chance to 1 hit ko someone.

So basically its more effective you nade + gun combo someone than to gun someone down.  So...why learn something that is less effective and much harder??

You're right, they are indeed effective, but it is all part of the balance. When used correctly, grenades help to counter the height advantage which is why they are the only weapon to be lethal to the feet instead of the head. Grenades are an auxiliary weapon; yes they can be very affective when used well, but they certainly don't make skilled primary weapons obsolete.

Nades only become really cheap in a cramped map where the server has combined a high nade allowance and a fast nade box respawn time. In that situation, nades loose their 'auxiliary' status and players can freely nade-spam without having any repercussions. But even then, a skilled player can defeat a nade-throwing noob because they just don't use the tactics right.

If nades need any nurfing, it should be to the box spawning time longer so that players are free to spam but at the expense of having less nades for the rest of the game until they die. But the bonuses time includes all the other bonus packs.

[Supernaut]

Let's all stop using nades so excruciator can show off some skill and kill us all.

[excruciator]

lets not make this too easy for me

[Supernaut]

We should only use knives, nades and m79 to piss you off. Every damn overpowered weapon in soldat you could think about.

[excruciator]

lol sure. Easy kills...

[Lord Frunkamunch]

I flame because Lord cannot bring up a good arguement and he seems to question my credibility, sure my stats are guesses but they are based on my personal experiences and facts, The numbers might be wrong but the general idea behind it are not!

I said you lost your credibility when you had to resort to flaming to try and prove your point. And the very fact that your entire "general idea" is based on personal experiences from someone who is biased much more than the average player against nades (i.e, to the point of choosing not using them when it is you your advantage to do so) seems awkward reasoning from the start.

[excruciator]

1st off, you have to take a side to make an arguement, so leave the bias part out.
2nd, Yeah sure they are my personal experiences, but I think the principles are the same.
I use the same weapons, play in the same server, use the same secondary, same default key, so I doubt it that my personal experience would be very different from someone elses.

I resort to flaming because sometime I feel like I'm speaking with a bunch of mindless baboons. and because people are critisizing my abilities rather than argueing whatever we are argueing.

also not choosing to use a weapon is just a personal choice. A lot of people choose not to follow the general audience.


Now instead of critisizing my ability to reason why dont you come up with some reasonable arguements since I havent heard any from any of you.(SDFilm has some but...)

anyone of you want to list any real disavantage of nade over other weapons? any disavantage that applies no matter whats the situation? or at least common enough to met?

[Supernaut]

You need to stop firing your primary/ stop reloading for a while to throw a nade.
It has a crappy range.
It is hard to aim.
You need to aim for the feet.
It is limited.
Everybody has some.


There is no disadvantage for any weapon at point blank range (apart from killing faster or slower than other weapon) so your question is inadequate.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

anyone of you want to list any real disavantage of nade over other weapons? any disavantage that applies no matter whats the situation? or at least common enough to met?

See, there's the thing. If there was another weapon you could choose instead of nades, then maybe there would be a point in arguing that they were overpowered when compared to the other weapon. But that's not the case. Nades are a class of their own, and so by what standard are you going to grade them? Now, so far you have gone by the standard "nades and gun" versus "full gunner" and from what I've seen, they're balanced.

Alsoz, JSYK, a 'bias' is not which side of the argument you choose. It is a preexisting notion that influences your decision.

[ElGato]

1st off, you have to take a side to make an arguement, so leave the bias part out.

Bias and taking a side are different, whether you think so or not.

2nd, Yeah sure they are my personal experiences, but I think the principles are the same.
I use the same weapons, play in the same server, use the same secondary, same default key, so I doubt it that my personal experience would be very different from someone elses.

That's where the bias comes in, other people with THE SAME experiences as you don't have the same intense opinion on certain things. We have very very similar experiences and yet a lot of us strongly disagree with you, weird huh?

I resort to flaming because sometime I feel like I'm speaking with a bunch of mindless baboons. and because people are critisizing my abilities rather than argueing whatever we are argueing.

First off flaming is dumb no matter what, it makes you look like an idiot and doesn't make what other people are saying any less true. We can all see through that. Second, we are questioning your abilities because that could be where the bias comes from. If you are playing poorly and getting owned by these weapons you could form a strong opinion based on your passion alone, even though not many other people play like you and have the same problems.

also not choosing to use a weapon is just a personal choice. A lot of people choose not to follow the general audience.

Ya but doing so simply because you don't like it is dumb in a situation when you want to win, especially if you don't have to sacrifice using your favorite weapon to do so.

Now instead of critisizing my ability to reason why dont you come up with some reasonable arguements since I havent heard any from any of you.(SDFilm has some but...)

anyone of you want to list any real disavantage of nade over other weapons? any disavantage that applies no matter whats the situation? or at least common enough to met?

First off I don't think the nades should be judged on advantages or disadvantages vs other weapons, they are independent and
thus can be used by everyone. Nades are a big part of game play but you know what, I like it. If you want to change that petition the regular servers you play in to change the nade limit to something lower. And nades do take skill to use them all effectively, despite what you say.

Date Posted: November 05, 2007, 05:12:12 pmDamn Frunkamunch beat me to some of the points in my post. :p

[excruciator]

see? that what Im talking about.... No real arguement... you simply replied that nades are in a league of their own and cannot be judged. You know what I think? You are avoiding the arguement. If I was so wrong about everything then you could get something out and crush me with it. But the fact is you keep avoiding it by stating how impossible it is and how biased I am.

Sure taking a side in an arguement is different than bias. But if you are taking a side of course you are gonna support the side you picked! and of course you gonna say things that are not favorable to the other side, and of course, then people are gonna call you biased! I agree that those are not the same thing but the fact is that bias vs taking a side does not have a fine line between them.

Many people joined it, But I didn't. Thats the difference. But we all agree that to a certain extent everyone felt that nades are extremely good against everything. And we all at some point in the gaming career *cough* that we felt the wrath of the nades. (when is the last time you fought a great gunner?? when is the last time you fought a nade user... They could have the same KD ratio but the first one is much rarer and respectable)

Jeez Elgato, the mp5 overpowered thread sure made you look at a moron.....

Thats why we are different, see I do want to be good, but I just don't like to take shortcuts. And you know what? I would not want to won If I had to whore my way to the top. Just lame. And so F***ing noob.

I don't blame you for liking it. I think MM never meant to make weapon that way but it just happened. The guns are not powerful enough to be standing alone. Thats why most of you nade combos. Trying to achieve the alternative to a 1 hit KO solution. And it pretty much impossible to get to the other side of a ctf map if you don't whore that way. I don't like it as much as you do....wait, but you do like whoring...

The point is that nade are vital to the game. So I would say.... 75% dmg no matter where it hits, 1 nade, and longer respawn pack time.




 

Date Posted: November 05, 2007, 08:48:53 pm

You need to stop firing your primary/ stop reloading for a while to throw a nade.
It has a crappy range.
It is hard to aim.
You need to aim for the feet.
It is limited.
Everybody has some.

1st one, untrue, you can still fire it when you throw. Sure the aim is crappier but a hit is a hit.
2nd, sure, but is it can be easily learned, so I wouldnt say that is a permanent solution
3.You dont have to, aim anywhere is good, I mean feet would excel but you dont have to. Not really a restriction
4. Sure, but still not common enough since you spawn with them.
5. Not much of a restriction.

Still, gratz for being the first one brining up reasonable arguement.

[ElGato]

I think we can all agree what I said about darkangel is actually fact and not flame. :p But aside from that what we said IS a real arguement, you can't compare it to other guns. All you can say is that they are too good and say why, but in the end it really comes down opinion and you simply seem to always have a different one than most other people. Put your own server up and run it with no nades? Make a league where nades are set to 1? I don't know what to tell you, because I can't seem to relate to anything you say. Don't want to take shortcuts? Stop using the steyr, it's too good. All you say is that we have no point... I have yet to see you make a stronger point than any of us.

[Supernaut]

1. You can't fire and throw at the same time. you can start firing after and before you threw a nade.  While throwing nade you stop using your primary, that's why you can stop reloading spass with it.
2. Of course it needs to be easily learned. Like playing with ruger, spass, hk5, m79 and bla bla. So what?
3. Aim everywhere may leave the enemy with enough hp to kill you.
4. It is common enough when there are 2 nades max at server settings. Sure many servers have more, but it's still server owner's personal choice.
5. It just shows it doesn't have any advantage over anything so it can't be overpowered.

[excruciator]

1. No you can still charge the nade and firing at the sametime so its a advantage.
2. every weapon can be learned. Its not a advantage nor a disavantage
3. a nade would deal 50% dmg instantly. So after hitting a nade it would be 50% life vs 100% life, and the chance that the guy with 100% life to die is close to none. In conclusion, what you said is a lie.
4. still too uncommon, nade's nade should still be cut.


Date Posted: November 08, 2007, 11:51:50 am

I think we can all agree what I said about darkangel is actually fact and not flame. :p But aside from that what we said IS a real arguement, you can't compare it to other guns. All you can say is that they are too good and say why, but in the end it really comes down opinion and you simply seem to always have a different one than most other people. Put your own server up and run it with no nades? Make a league where nades are set to 1? I don't know what to tell you, because I can't seem to relate to anything you say. Don't want to take shortcuts? Stop using the steyr, it's too good. All you say is that we have no point... I have yet to see you make a stronger point than any of us.

I've been using steyr since 1.3.1, a version that only few actually uses this underpowered gun.
and wtf kind of point is "you cant compare it"
That is denying the arguement more than a point.

and you should take sometime and read all of my posts. If nade were so not overpowered, why everyone depends on them so much in making a kill??? Why everyone uses them so much? People are not stupid, If steyr it got better there would be more people using steyr, Minimi got a boost now I see minimis everywhere. There must be a reason why nades are so popular. Not because it looks good. Its because is fundamentally better! and none of you dared to face the fact.

No one yet had answered this question of mine because if you did this arguement would be long over.

[a-4-year-old]

Grenades have elevated to a position higher than they should be. Some people think the grenades are fine, excruciator thinks they are retarded. I somewhat agree.

Grenades should be an offhand, a short range damage buff. Right now it's more effective than some of the primaries.

In clans, grenade skill is more important than weapon skill.
grenades should not be a one hit kill weapon. giving everyone a possible one hit kill takes a lot of the uniqueness out of each engagement. takes strategy out of the game, and makes it a whole lot more boring.

Even if you think the grenade is balanced, the game is a whole lot less fun with the way they are set up right now.

Getting rid of the grenades entirely takes out an element of the strategy, lowering the amount doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that the grenades do too much damage.

[ElGato]

I've been using steyr since 1.3.1, a version that only few actually uses this underpowered gun.
and wtf kind of point is "you cant compare it"
That is denying the arguement more than a point.

No, it is a point because everyone has them so you can't compare them to guns. You can say list nade's advantages and disadvantages vs other guns as a point, a smart person will always be using both so it doesn't make sense. I don't remember steyr ever being underpowered but whatever, that's not the point. All I'm saying is your logic of nades are too good so I won't use them is ridiculous, if it was a choice of nades over a primary or secondary then it might make sense but it's not. Everyone has them, put up your own server and have it limited to 1 nade. Tada!

and you should take sometime and read all of my posts. If nade were so not overpowered, why everyone depends on them so much in making a kill??? Why everyone uses them so much? People are not stupid, If steyr it got better there would be more people using steyr, Minimi got a boost now I see minimis everywhere. There must be a reason why nades are so popular. Not because it looks good. Its because is fundamentally better! and none of you dared to face the fact.

1.Decent people don't depend on nades for kills.
2.They are used all the time because they are easy to obtain and you don't have to sacrifice anything else to use them. To use the minimi I would have to stop using the steyr, barret, whatever. And they obviously help to kill, no matter if they did 100% damage or 10%.
3.Ya, they are popular because they are better than... not using them. What the hell.... If everyone went by style alone we would have a lot more videos and a lot less good players.

No one yet had answered this question of mine because if you did this arguement would be long over.

And you say that almost every post when we actually do answer every question.

Date Posted: November 08, 2007, 12:19:09 pmAhh some decent points actually!

Grenades have elevated to a position higher than they should be. Some people think the grenades are fine, excruciator thinks they are retarded. I somewhat agree.

Grenades should be an offhand, a short range damage buff. Right now it's more effective than some of the primaries.

If I played someone with equal skill who only used nades when I only used guns they would get raped. Any gun.

In clans, grenade skill is more important than weapon skill.
grenades should not be a one hit kill weapon. giving everyone a possible one hit kill takes a lot of the uniqueness out of each engagement. takes strategy out of the game, and makes it a whole lot more boring.

Once again I don't agree with the first line but the rest is a very good point. Although it isn't a one hit kill always it does take a lot of uniqueness out and I do actually agree that is a problem, all battles go almost the same. But if you lowered the damage, what would change? People wouldn't rush as much because nades are a saving grace when rushing and it would just be another spray competition in almost every clanwar. Also they usually only kill in one hit when they hit the legs, which I think is rather important. If they didn't it would just be a battle for height all the time thus removing another element from play.

Even if you think the grenade is balanced, the game is a whole lot less fun with the way they are set up right now.

I can't argue or agree here, I guess I don't remember when they were a whole lot different.

Getting rid of the grenades entirely takes out an element of the strategy, lowering the amount doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that the grenades do too much damage.

It would solve the problem for excruciator, but not for others I s'pose. But I still can't think of a justified reason for grenade damage to be nerfed so much that it would affect gameplay. It would change a lot.

[excruciator]

No, it is a point because everyone has them so you can't compare them to guns. You can say list nade's advantages and disadvantages vs other guns as a point, a smart person will always be using both so it doesn't make sense. I don't remember steyr ever being underpowered but whatever, that's not the point. All I'm saying is your logic of nades are too good so I won't use them is ridiculous, if it was a choice of nades over a primary or secondary then it might make sense but it's not. Everyone has them, put up your own server and have it limited to 1 nade. Tada!

*Elgato brings up the point of no arguement, again.

1.Decent people don't depend on nades for kills.
2.They are used all the time because they are easy to obtain and you don't have to sacrifice anything else to use them. To use the minimi I would have to stop using the steyr, barret, whatever. And they obviously help to kill, no matter if they did 100% damage or 10%.
3.Ya, they are popular because they are better than... not using them. What the hell.... If everyone went by style alone we would have a lot more videos and a lot less good players.

NB.: Fear, never generalize a point.

2) *Elgato brings up a weird arguement "people only uses nades because they dont have to become bad at another primary, not much of a point in my opinion... Retarded also...

3) comparing using them to not using them. :/ whata hell, of course using them is better than not using them. I cant argue with that but it feels like Elgato won't face the truth.

Explain why all of a sudden Minimi become more popular.




Date Posted: November 08, 2007, 12:30:48 pm

Grenades have elevated to a position higher than they should be. Some people think the grenades are fine, excruciator thinks they are retarded. I somewhat agree.

Grenades should be an offhand, a short range damage buff. Right now it's more effective than some of the primaries.

In clans, grenade skill is more important than weapon skill.
grenades should not be a one hit kill weapon. giving everyone a possible one hit kill takes a lot of the uniqueness out of each engagement. takes strategy out of the game, and makes it a whole lot more boring.

Even if you think the grenade is balanced, the game is a whole lot less fun with the way they are set up right now.

Getting rid of the grenades entirely takes out an element of the strategy, lowering the amount doesn't solve the problem. The problem is that the grenades do too much damage.

well said, Elgato, read it while you are at it.

Sure good players don't depends on nades, but sucky players can achieve the same skill with nade+gun combo, that just isnt fair. + I think at least half or more of the  Ruthless member and EF members are also in that category, they are not great at guns but their nades skill can compensate, their gunskills. With the few exception of vets like Blade and sneaky etc.
Nades skill is supposed to help the primary gun skill, not compensate it.