Grenades: To nerf, or not to nerf?

[ElGato]

There is absolutely no way to argue with you because I am answering all your questions and you ignore what I say. Well screw it, I can't convince you but I can take solace in the fact that you won't convince anyone who has a say in the balance because you can't defend your points. You can only repeat them and dismiss mine and other's. And that is a rather large claim to make about R7 and EF. Very large.

[excruciator]

the same applys to you. Jesus how can you argue with the point of "you cant argue" , thats retarded. If you can actually points out things like: U missed the fact that nades takes a long time to reload(example, not fact) or somethin like that I would agree to you. But there arnt many disavantage to nades are there?

[ElGato]

This is my last post in this thread, I need to leave for work. My point isn't you can't argue, my point is you can't compare nades to guns. Everyone can use nades and a gun thus it is balanced. You may not like the fact that nades play a big part in some battles but you can't say they are better than guns, that is ridiculous and even if it were true I would think making guns better would be a better idea. I will admit there are no disadvantages to nades, but should there be? If there was who would use them? What would be the point? You can say you have the best gun skill and you should win because of it but I think a person who has decent gun skill and can aim a nade should win. Opinion. There are other points about nades that no one has even mentioned on why they should stay as good as they are (example: evening a battle for the person without height) and I doubt you would even consider those. Whatever, fight the good fight but try and find a better way to do it.

[a-4-year-old]

No you cannot compare grenades to weapons. But that is not the reason they should be nerfed. They are too good at killing, even in the wrong hands a grenade is pretty powerful. (i would consider myself the "wrong hands") So powerful that it takes some of the fun out of the game. If everyone gets a really powerful weapon, then they do not need as much skill when they have a crutch like this. I have seen clanners that get raped from a distance because they can't shoot for crap and their weapon is secondary to their grenades, maybe that is the solution? no.

A good example of how the grenades excel would be CTF_Ash. this map is grenade heaven. grenades are key to winning on that map. there isn't really a counter for the grenade.

[-Vis-]

This is my last post in this thread, I need to leave for work. My point isn't you can't argue, my point is you can't compare nades to guns. Everyone can use nades and a gun thus it is balanced.

So if we give everyone 100 nades and make them spammable at 10 nades per second, they'll still be balanced, because everyone has them, right?

No. Nades aren't being compared to individual guns. They're being compared to the guns as a whole. The question is whether nades are responsible for too many kills, and whether guns in general should play a larger part in deciding the outcome of an encounter. At the end of the day, it comes down to opinion.

There is no fact in saying nades cause too many kills. That's just what some people believe. They're not wrong to believe that, that's just their opinion. I happen to agree, although I'm not particularly concerned with whether they're changed or not, although I would like to see a slight increase in the time between nade throws, to help prevent spamming, but that's besides the point.

The point is, excruciator, no matter how many valid points people throw at you, you'll probably never change your opinion, and they're unlikely to change theirs. So unless you have a better reason why nades should be nerfed (besides all the stuff you already said), there's no point in continuing to post in this thread.

[excruciator]

This is my last post in this thread, I need to leave for work. My point isn't you can't argue, my point is you can't compare nades to guns. Everyone can use nades and a gun thus it is balanced.

So if we give everyone 100 nades and make them spammable at 10 nades per second, they'll still be balanced, because everyone has them, right?

No. Nades aren't being compared to individual guns. They're being compared to the guns as a whole. The question is whether nades are responsible for too many kills, and whether guns in general should play a larger part in deciding the outcome of an encounter. At the end of the day, it comes down to opinion.

There is no fact in saying nades cause too many kills. That's just what some people believe. They're not wrong to believe that, that's just their opinion. I happen to agree, although I'm not particularly concerned with whether they're changed or not, although I would like to see a slight increase in the time between nade throws, to help prevent spamming, but that's besides the point.

The point is, excruciator, no matter how many valid points people throw at you, you'll probably never change your opinion, and they're unlikely to change theirs. So unless you have a better reason why nades should be nerfed (besides all the stuff you already said), there's no point in continuing to post in this thread.

hah 80% of the people uses m79 is pubs back in 1.3.1, why did it got nerfed then, since everyone uses them.

+ vis, you are a realistic player, of course it doesnt concern you because the guns are just as powerful as nades if not more, in realistic the gun is actually more capable than nades.

[Supernaut]

There is no fact in saying nades cause too many kills. That's just what some people believe. They're not wrong to believe that, that's just their opinion. I happen to agree, although I'm not particularly concerned with whether they're changed or not, although I would like to see a slight increase in the time between nade throws, to help prevent spamming, but that's besides the point.

That's actually the only point I agree with.

Date Posted: November 08, 2007, 03:32:20 pm

hah 80% of the people uses m79 is pubs back in 1.3.1, why did it got nerfed then, since everyone uses them.

Weren't you the one bragging about generalizing?

[-Vis-]

hah 80% of the people uses m79 is pubs back in 1.3.1, why did it got nerfed then, since everyone uses them.

+ vis, you are a realistic player, of course it doesnt concern you because the guns are just as powerful as nades if not more, in realistic the gun is actually more capable than nades.

The m79 is a primary weapon, and as such, can be compared to each other gun individually in terms of balance. You can't do that with nades, as I already stated. Nades are a supplement to your primary weapon, and everyone has them regardless of their weapon choices.

And for your information, I play normal just as much, if not more than, r/s. The reason it doesn't concern me is because I don't see it as a big problem. My arguments in this thread revolve exclusively around normal mode.

[Supernaut]

I don't have a clue why a person who can aim a good nade at you excruciator should lose a fight against you just because you follow the rules of code of no nades. Really I don't. If he can kill you with help of the nades he probably deserved that. Grenades always complemented our lacking (or not) gun skills. I also think about all those poor barret users who would suffer from grenades not being able to kill in 1 hit.

Then again there are new players who can do that too, but, come on, that's why people brag about m79.

[excruciator]

I don't have a clue why a person who can aim a good nade at you excruciator should lose a fight against you just because you follow the rules of code of no nades. Really I don't. If he can kill you with help of the nades he probably deserved that. Grenades always complemented our lacking (or not) gun skills. I also think about all those poor barret users who would suffer from grenades not being able to kill in 1 hit.

Then again there are new players who can do that too, but, come on, that's why people brag about m79.

lol I dare you to 1 on 1 me.

Date Posted: November 08, 2007, 03:52:05 pmand indeed, "our" lacking, I think people deserves to lose if they suck at guns, such as you.

Granades always complemented our lacking [of] gun skills

[Lord Frunkamunch]

Not only do you ignore every single main point in his post, but you take one sentence completely out of context to flame, and even edit it to mean something completely different. If I wasn't convinced you were a moron before that post, I sure as hell am now.

The reason I'm more or less done with the topic is not because of any of that "unable to prove a point" bullfeck you've been spouting hypocritically, but because I know that no one capable of changing anything will ever take you seriously.

[excruciator]

Not only do you ignore every single main point in his post, but you take one sentence completely out of context to flame, and even edit it to mean something completely different. If I wasn't convinced you were a moron before that post, I sure as hell am now.

The reason I'm more or less done with the topic is not because of any of that "unable to prove a point" bullfeck you've been spouting hypocritically, but because I know that no one capable of changing anything will ever take you seriously.

and you are done, thank you and goodbye.
Well, its still a quote isnt it? no matter how much I edit it, its technically still a quote.

Sure, I accept the fact that nades cannot be compared. But then what happens? you are gonna say "ohh since there is nothing to compare to it sure is balanced" The fact is, its not.

Sure they can kill me with nades, sure you can all pick the cheap and quick way, but unbalanced its unbalanced, hell if you are good with nade why bother with the weapons? It essencially made weapons less important than what they were programmed for.

and also, I dont think he deserves to win when In a 1 on 1 he had time to throw 3 nade that could deal approximately 150% of my life before I was able to gun him down with my steyr with a hit rate of roughly 80%

[Lord Frunkamunch]

blah blah blah, im stupid and i stil wet my bed

by the way, i really did say this

No, I think editing a quote kinda loses the point.

[Ziem]

As long as EVERYONE has nades, they can't be overpowered... ( saying the same thing like billionth time sux ;E )

[a-4-year-old]

As long as EVERYONE has nades, they can't be overpowered... ( saying the same thing like billionth time sux ;E )

Thats a load of crap. What if grenades killed everyone on the map? wouldn't that be overpowered? or what if grenades did absolutely nothing? wouldn't they need to be changed?

[Kerrazyeye]

I dont know if its been suggested, but I am totally in favor of having nades detonate after say...2-3 seconds. Whether they are in the air or not. Nades that hit a soldat just bounce off, drop down. It always bugged me that a nade could hit a poly, and explode 2 seconds later, but if it hit a soldat, immediately detonated.

[excruciator]

blah blah blah, im stupid and i stil wet my bed

by the way, i really did say this

No, I think editing a quote kinda loses the point.

Notice that my in my quote I only rearranged the position of the words
No it actually doesn't lose its point because I edited exactly the way I wanted to be.

Date Posted: November 10, 2007, 11:13:40 am

As long as EVERYONE has nades, they can't be overpowered... ( saying the same thing like billionth time sux ;E )

Thats a load of crap. What if grenades killed everyone on the map? wouldn't that be overpowered? or what if grenades did absolutely nothing? wouldn't they need to be changed?

QFT

Date Posted: November 10, 2007, 11:14:06 amI would like to see nades that can be gunned down. So the shooter couldnt exploit the fact that you can throw a nade and fire your primary at the sametime. and give some consequences to people that spam

[The Owls]

Grenades are what makes soldat, soldat.  Without them, we'd just have another point and click shooter game.  But with them, we have a surprisingly complex game that we have all come to know and love. 

The balance on the grenades shouldn't come from shooting them from mid air (worst balance idea I've really ever heard), or weakening them so they don't kill when hitting the feet.  What balances the grenades is the fact that they're limited.  Servers can change this, which is actually like a weapon mod.  Playing in a server with 2 grenades, vs a server with 4 grenades, is completely different.  The amount of grenades you have is what balances them.

Excruciator, I'd imagine you're used to playing in pubs such as u13 where the grenades are set to 4.  Having 4 grenades at your disposal is indeed, just a bit of overkill.  That is where most of the games nade spammers are born and raised too, which is probably why you hate them so much.

Now while above I have been stressing that the amount of nades you have determines the balance, I do believe that grenades do need a bit of change themselves, mostly to counter the nade spammers.  All grenades really need is a slower throwing interval, so people can't unload all their grenades within a few seconds on a single enemy.  Not only will this kill grenade spammers, but it will bring back skill to grenades, and kill most last ditch nade spam efforts.

[excruciator]

But with them, we have a surprisingly complex game that we have all come to know and love.

well come to saturday night live everybody, today features soldatforums funny man The Owls!

Date Posted: November 10, 2007, 12:57:03 pm

The balance on the grenades shouldn't come from shooting them from mid air (worst balance idea I've really ever heard), or weakening them so they don't kill when hitting the feet.  What balances the grenades is the fact that they're limited.  Servers can change this, which is actually like a weapon mod.  Playing in a server with 2 grenades, vs a server with 4 grenades, is completely different.  The amount of grenades you have is what balances them.

How is it limited since you can get them back by simply go to a base or die?

Excruciator, I'd imagine you're used to playing in pubs such as u13 where the grenades are set to 4.  Having 4 grenades at your disposal is indeed, just a bit of overkill.  That is where most of the games nade spammers are born and raised too, which is probably why you hate them so much.

true, but I don't play much u13DM anymore, I usually go there just to choose the 1st ranking player and 1 on 1 him, the server I usually play has 2 nades but it still feels like too much since some players just keep nading me because they can't beat me at gunning.
people might say" ohh man just stay away" True however they usually force me into a tight corner and unload their entire arsenal onto me. It doesn't aways work. Instead of a 20 to 6 victory they might get to 20 to 14 just because of that.

Now while above I have been stressing that the amount of nades you have determines the balance, I do believe that grenades do need a bit of change themselves, mostly to counter the nade spammers.  All grenades really need is a slower throwing interval, so people can't unload all their grenades within a few seconds on a single enemy.  Not only will this kill grenade spammers, but it will bring back skill to grenades, and kill most last ditch nade spam efforts.

couldn't agree more. You shouldn't have enough time to unload more than 1-2 nade on a single target.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

Plus, adding that will fix accidentally dropping a nade at your feet and suiciding.