If these are soldat mapmakers...

[adarius]

This post is aimed especially at Niko, Blue-ninja, Bgretydews, and especially Demonic, who is supposed to be a moderator (haha...funny)

I'm sorry but wow, I thought I would enjoy map making in an awesome community full of amazing soldatian map makers. I WAS COMPLETELY ****ING WRONG.  I seem to have found a section of the forum for pompous, arrogant, hot-air filled ****heads to gather and flame anyone that isn't one of them.  I tried to make a map to the best of how I knew and it took me two days, a short time but hey, I'm new so I was still learning.  I read guides and decided to do the basics first, kept working on them and then decided to release one of mine, and one a friend was working on, we both were working together and bouncing ideas.  So I uploaded the maps, put in pics, and asked for constructive criticism and suggestions for a new mapper that would help.

What did I get?  Nothing but a giant ass topic of high 'n mighty mappers calling me lazy, a noob, saying I couldn't map worth **** and on top of it all, a moderator calls them crap and locks the topic...OH WOW THAT REALLY WANTS TO MAKE ME MAP MORE!  Oh wait I forgot...IT DOESN'T.  So, instead of helping out a new mapper and telling them what they should improve on for what they are doing, all they give is stupid ass comments of the mentality of a 1 year old...no wait I'm sorry a 1 year old is smarter than that, I just dissed a 1 year old...crap.  Well wow, isn't that amazing. I'm sorry I can't give you ****ing godly maps made in a year that I worked on to perfect to the tiniest little detail and is so amazing it's praised by everyone.  I'm sure even if I did that you would still call it crap.

Oh and, I couldn't care less if I'm banned for this.  It's the truth, and the truth disgusts me.  This isn't a forum for mapmakers, it's a forum for assholes, flamers, and idiots.  So, have fun, because I've said my peace, and if you delete it, I just feel better cause it means you know I'm right and/or you're scared of the truth.  Farewell!

Edit: I could have put this in mapping discussion, but this was the forum where the act of stupid people being even more stupid was commited(see above list).  So this is where it shall belong.

[Eagles_Arrows]

Most of the mappers here can't map for ****, either.  It's all about the pretty visuals now, but the gameplay is still more important.  That's what most of us fail to realize.

If you really want constructive criticism, you can always PM those who do not post often, and they're usually the more kind ones: Keron Cyst, Wraithlike, me, Avarax, etc.  There are times when criticism can sound harsh, but for the most part we're trying to help you.

And don't blame Demonic for every negative thing he says.  He usually posts stuff like that due to his hatred for the mapping community.

[Blue-ninja]

*insert hate here*

When I looked at your WTF map overview, I didn't care about the visuals, I cared about how it would play in-game.

[Iq Unlimited]

Wow this is a lot of whine. If you cant take criticism don't post maps here. Sorry, its just how some of us are here at SF.com.

[VijchtiDoodah]

Hahaha.  Welcome to the mapping section.

It's been...what?  Two years since I stopped posting here because of all the ass kissing and back scratching over a bunch of underdeveloped, uninspired, cookie-cutter maps?  There were some invigorating times in the days of lore, but they've gone the way of every veteran of these forums.

This is why I don't like Anna's Polyworks -- nothing against the developer or the program, but I loathe the fact that it makes mapping accessible to the many, the proud, and the terminally stupid.  Let's hope MM's "paintshop" mapping scheme for Crimson Glory follows a different fate.

[Snow]

Dang. My ass-sniffing buthole compy screwed up posting my response to your last thread. I had offered some constructive criticism. So I'll try and remember what I said...

Oh and VijchtiDoodah... isn't it a good thing that mapping is accessible to the many? I guess I can only offer an analogy as an example with the little time I have atm. When it comes to developing independant games for instance. 2D Indie games have been flourishing and there have been some hits spriging up. It used to be, that to produce a game, especially independantly, not only did you have to do the character/level design, artwork, music, soundfx, etc, but you also had to code and program it from ground up. Of course those that stuck with it and worked hard to learn programming gained an appreciation of the craft.

Then came flash and other prebuilt 2d engines like Game Maker. Now the craft was accessible to many. Tons upon Tons of crappy shit called "games" spewed onto the internet. But among those "game designers" there were a few, who had not the capacity to learn programming, limited time and just wanted to get their ideas out there.

They had a tool which allowed them to focus on the game itself without having to tool every piece of code for it. If the prebuilt engine was capable of their vision.. they could make a game. Some favorites sprang up. Mine happen to be Knytt, Knytt Stories and Deathworm.

Polyworks might make it a bit less difficult to make a good map, but a good map is still a lot of hard work and there are devoted mapmakers here that put in all the effort but at least can finish their maps a bit sooner and in a much safer (less glitching) software.

Ok, back to the constructive criticism...

I can understand what you were aiming at with your maps. You want a constant fast, frenzied fragfest, so there's no real need for much scenery, colour or shading. It would seem the layout alone would suffice. However it doesn't matter how good the layout is, the lack of colour, scenery or shading.. well basically the flatness despite showing lack of effort would get boring quick. You had a start with the colouring in the second map. Still, you want a map that employs a minimalist design so that the focus is more on the fast gameplay. You can still do that, but maintain a good looking map that entices the player into that fast frenzied mood. Here's my suggestions.

Psychology in some cases is half of the map. Though there are many maps with many different themes - a lot of which well don't really fit a deathmatch scenario, some fit perfectly like Factory for instance. So first you pick a theme or at least a look. Then with that look you pick an appropriate texture, palette and lighting. Colours of course effect everyone psycologically in some way. Grey is gloomy for most. Orange is warm. Red attracts. Then comes appropriate scenery and the finishing touches.

I'm only going to focus on the first map. When I saw the first map and read your intention for it, a pitfight came to mind. A pitfight, is usually a dirty no holds barred fight (sometimes in a cage) in some dark concrete underground parking garage. Well, you know that. Anyway. So here are some elements to work with: Concrete, undergound (enclosed), maybe a cage, it's dark, cold and it's grimey. Because of the layout of your map, you obviously can't make it look like an underground parkade, but you can definitely add these elements to it. You can chose some colours first. Since the map will be a dark area, the texture and background colours should match and work with the darkness. So for examples, dark navy blue, spruce green, dark indigo, etc. The platforms could be cracking and partially eroded or worn concrete slabs. Some could have big rivited metal plates holding cracked portions together. This adds a hard cold look. On these slabs you have stains and grafitti (sceneries). Make sure there are also obstacles where you need them to augment the players travel a bit. So dips or chunks missing from the slabs. Then add lights and shading. The lights could be those caged gas lamps. Again that adds to the hard and cold look. It could be brighter where you want most of the fighting to occur, say an open area and a bit darker in other less travelled parts. The player still has to see the fighting areas clearly of course. If you want a true pitfighting theme, you can add a wire mesh cage to an open area. From this point on you, improve, build, playtest, shape etc.

K, I'm really tired and passing out at this point lol. I hope this gives you an idea. And some pointers on your layouts:

map 1: CTF is usually a balanced and mirrored map. In your map, it is unbalanced as one team has to climb and fight upwards for it, where as the enemy team has gravity to their advantage and can get to the flag quicker. Tho the teams do the opposite when going back, the top team still has the advantage in defense.

map 2: Nice start on some colours, but too empty. With just 1 platform where everyone spawns, it will become a headache getting spawnkilled, and players would get bored really fast jumping and jetting around in the open expanse below shooting at eachother.

I don't feel like I wasted energy, I and everyone else knows what you're getting at, but you guys were in a rush to get these posted online. Soldat will be around for a long time. There's no hurry. So sit back, grab some beers, think of some themes, sketch stuff out and test layouts. Go ahead and make simple maps like these BUT ONLY for the purpose of just layout tests. THEN, apply your theme, add your magic and make the REAL map. Test that sucker out, fine tune it and then post it.

If it happens to be a shitty map or has shitty waypointing or perhaps a shitty layout. No sweat. It still sucks and is humiliating, BUT you're a beginner. It's expected. Guaranteed you will get some positive feedback or pointers and you can improve your next design.

OMG. I have to stop typing now. Good luck in the future.

--Snow.

[~Niko~]

Don't flame on me, it wasn't my fault, i still think you should spend more time in every map and find a theme. I don't think you don't will be a great mapmaker, this is only the start, so i hope you do other map and post it here to get some criticism.

PS: There you will find hardly ever anyone who give you interesting stuff obout how to improve your map, also you can try to register and post your maps in www.realsol.com.

[adarius]

When I looked at your WTF map overview, I didn't care about the visuals, I cared about how it would play in-game.

Then how about trying to play it in a server with a large amount of other people and seeing it actually play?

...

Well, thank you Niko, after a flame or two you seem to have turned around a bit.  Oh, and thanks for the link, I'll check it out after school. Oh um...after Gameclub I mean! xD

and...@IQ:  Whine....wrong, nothing but pure fact.  Besides, nothing in that post was constructive criticism at all.  Wait I take that back, I think someone gave a small "try to do this" after their flame.

Thank you everyone who posted, I'm curious as to why Demonic hasn't yet posted in this topic.  Maybe he just hasn't been on yet.  Oh well, and I'm still trying to work on the maps, I am working on the larger map right now and trying to create a better layout that would prove more interesting.

[Demonic]

adarius, look around this section.

See the thousands upon thousands of maps? Some are pretty, some are not. Some were made in a month, some were done in a day. Custom scenery, default scenery, daring layouts or boring cliché-s. You can find it all, whatever a perverted preteen would desire to fulfill his Soldat map needs. And yet... it all sucks.

People will not download the posted maps, not even if it's waypointed. The hassle of clicking the link and unpacking the download into the Soldat folder is too much for these maggots. What do they do? They click the overview posted, and whatever they see, they'll just brown nose. 'Nice map!' 'Looks great!' 'Omg!'. All is worth shit.

I bashed you, yes. I only write two types of replies: either give constructive criticism to help the mapper, or bash the living daylight out of him. Both are for the greater good: these two were the only things that have helped me through out the years of addiction. Bashing and constructive feedback.

Now, look at your creations. Start mapping first, you don't need to release every polygon you lay: make a few experiments, until you've got the basics in your hand, and can make an actual map. Then I'll help you. In the meantime? Bash, bash and bash.

Also, wrooooong forum. *moves*

[Iq Unlimited]

and...@IQ:  Whine....wrong, nothing but pure fact.  Besides, nothing in that post was constructive criticism at all.  Wait I take that back, I think someone gave a small "try to do this" after their flame.

No, your whining about how people criticize other people on this site. It's fact, but it's still whine.

[adarius]

Wrong IQ, they aren't criticizing, its called flaming.  Criticism is actually helpful.  I'm voicing this, the first to make a voice, others who didn't want to say anything for fear of punishment now can do the same.

@Demonic - I said it probably should have been here, and said why it wasn't.  But still, you don't even wanna see my first 5 maps, they're nothing but pure mayhem and nonsense.  I try to develop skills, share my current results and hear what others think should be done to improve upon what's there.  Not come to hear a ****load of retarded comments.

In the famous words of a great mapper from BF2, "If you continue to flame them, we won't have any amazing new maps to play anymore."  I think he strikes a cord there.  (I haven't played BF2 for almost a year now so I don't remember the guys name... sorry)

@Niko: Your web address is wrong, it's .org xD

[~Niko~]

You're right . When do you will upload a map with more things? I want GIVE CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM TO IT!!

[adarius]

Lol I'm still trying to figure out how to do stuff with the help of the guides.  I'm messing around with the advanced poly construction right now, and the advanced textures.  Once I get polys down I should be able to make good maps.  I'm good at concept/scenery/spawns, but I suck at the polys. Sooo unless you want some crappy poly maps it'll be a little while. (and from what I've seen, these people will think my simple polys are crap.) =)

[Snow]

Quads man. Learn quads.

[Mr. Domino]

I seem to have found a section of the forum for pompous, arrogant, hot-air filled ****heads to gather and flame anyone that isn't one of them.

Section of the forums? Anyway, I would be inclined to agree with you if you did not make your "WTF" mappack appear to be the second coming of Christ, or at least far, far better than the sum of its few parts. When your overview link depicting a dozen or so random polygons is called "WTF is that," well, that about sums it up. You write:

"We are new mappers and we took an entire day just to get a basic layout down, then another day to try to actually make them seem interesting."

Looking at your "WTF was that" map which consists of two polygons, I know I can't help picture the two days of planning and constructing:

"So, what you're going to do with your triangle, Tim?"
"I think I'm going with an isosceles."
"Ooooh, terrific choice! The gameplay shall be superb!"

I understand and have seen that most people are poor critics of themselves, and that any level of output looks fantastic in their eyes. Certainly, there is no harm in making such beginning attempts public (contrary to what many whiners will cry), but you must expect such output to be ridiculed just the same due to such a lack of effort and understanding. Instead of posting something along the lines of, "Here are my first maps. Please advise on what I should do to make them better," you released a mappack. A mappack of admittedly lazy and random maps.

What I would suggest is that you read Wraithlike's great guide and just continue mapping. Do not listen to anyone. Understand that you will improve with practice, and not every early map will be worth saving let alone releasing. Look at other maps you like and dissect them, learn how to use all of Polyworks' features, and request input from map makers whose maps you enjoy as needed. What's important is that you enjoy your maps, and, hell, if you enjoy playing DM over two polygons, then so be it. Just don't expect any others to do the same until you yourself better understand how to construct a map and what you think would be fun.

[~Niko~]

Quads man. Learn quads.

It's not necessary, use anna's multitexture techniche: For me is the best... and you can add so many textures that you want... 8+ is easy to merge with Rainriders texture merger. (If you mean use quad in multitextured)

[The Geologist]

I'm voicing this, the first to make a voice, others who didn't want to say anything for fear of punishment now can do the same.

Lawl...first off, you're far from the first to voice this opinion.  Second, the fact that you get so upset amazes me.  People don't keep their mouths shut out of fear of punishment, they just learn to deal with being flamed and put out something better.

They're maps for an online game.  That's it, sheesh.  No need to hop on here to start calling people names or swearing, 'cause it doesn't do much for your case about the "other people" being such jerks.

Also, it's trail by fire man.  Expectations for maps are high.  Just about everyone who has gotten good at making maps went through the same "omg they're flaming me" routine as you did, so don't act like it's the first time this has happened.  And from what I've seen your maps need some major work.

Why not look to other maps for clues or ideas?  You'll see that many of the best maps don't just have smatterings of triangles laid around, but they those triangles are connected to form more complex, smoother shapes. 

No one likes maps with just triangles man.  Yea, it might be fun in game with you and your clan friends...great.  Use the map then.  But other people may demand something of a higher quality, and with your practice should come the results to do that.  Doesn't just happen in a day or two either.

So you have two options.  Either learn to take flames and other comments in stride, or just quit now and sulk about it.  I'd go with the former, but that's just my opinion.

[Keron Cyst]

^
That's not just your opinion.

[Underworld]

What a hastle for a map,just try again and try harder...i also tottaly agree with Demonic 90% does indeed only click the overview says nice map and leaves thats why a map with good visuals will always score better in this forum then on a server,dont cry because of bad reply/critisisl just make another map and another ul get better.
 

[Blacksheepboy]

Hahaha. Welcome to the mapping section.

It's been...what? Two years since I stopped posting here because of all the ass kissing and back scratching over a bunch of underdeveloped, uninspired, cookie-cutter maps? There were some invigorating times in the days of lore, but they've gone the way of every veteran of these forums.

This is why I don't like Anna's Polyworks -- nothing against the developer or the program, but I loathe the fact that it makes mapping accessible to the many, the proud, and the terminally stupid. Let's hope MM's "paintshop" mapping scheme for Crimson Glory follows a different fate.

Whew...you've got that right. I must admit, at times I am one of them. Polyworks has admitably made map making incredibly easy to the masses. That has its pros and cons. Maybe good for the veterans with new features etc, but not good to the mapping community as a whole. Well, the veterans have to have their time to pass away to let the new take their possition. Whether that even happens or not, only time can tell. It hasn't really happened yet, and I guess that it probably won't be happening any time soon.

I would have to say, whether this has/did happen to you Adarius, some people of the forums do post crap like "you call this a map?!" etc...I don't need to elaborate on the topic. I find that incredibly degrading for the new mappers with little experience, but whether it happens to you or not, know that only the few selective forumers post crap like that. The majority of us have some common sense to not post that, and to discourage such.

I must say, I do like topics like these. They encourage good constructive discussion. They have certainly shaped me into a better forumer throughout time as I see how they things work, and how a community on a forum works. This forum has taught me a lot in general believe it or not about random things in life.

Well, suck it up and I certainly encourage you, Adarius, to stick around and deal with the crap that goes on in the forums. In every situation, you get idiots, jerks, and those "nice people" who are curtious and know most everything. I didn't read all of your post, but from the 1st paragraph, I could see where you were coming from.

Peace, and good luck with the rest of your "endevours."

Edit:

Hella, Demonic made some good points (of course).