The beginning

[KorrupT MerC]

This is where sin comes into play, God does not cause the suffering nor the deformities, sin does, but God wants us to overcome such things and follow him.

Though it does raise a question in the back of my head, why did God allow sin to be allowed in the first place? (starting with the devil, lucifer(ty svirin))

[Svirin Kerath]

This is where sin comes into play, God does not cause the suffering nor the deformities, sin does, but God wants us to overcome such things and follow him.

Though it does raise a question in the back of my head, why did God allow sin to be allowed in the first place? (starting with the devil, lucius(that is his original name i think, cant remember))

Well, exactly, that's a good question. Why even create Lucifer, if he, being omniscient, knew what he would do later?

And God, being omnipotent, can still alter the nature of the suffering resulting from sin, because he has the power to do so. So then why doesn't he?

It is at this point that many theologians say "well, we cannot possibly understand god." But that seems a cop-out to me, and not the least bit unfair. Why do we stop questioning at this point? Why isn't there a satisfactory answer? If god created this universe to be consistent, (and if he is omniscient and omnipotent, he would have no need to make it inconsistent), then there is an objective "truth," or explanation of everything. Obviously we can't know everything about the universe, but we should be able to know about what is applied to us, and what we can't learn from nature god has to reveal himself. Why won't he reveal these answers, yet he'll reveal to Moses that it's a sin to eat pig meat?

[Graham]

Svirin to a point you made a page ago which I didn't quote because I forgot to copy it and I am about to leave....

God did made Adam and Eve, the earth, and He knew what they were gonna do. However it doesn't mean just cause they fell short God is to blame. If you tell a friend to not run head first into a wall and he does... does it mean you are to blame? You knew he would get hurt and you told him not to do it.  If a parent tells a child to not get into drugs because they know the child has a chance of becoming an addict or doing something they regret should the parent be blamed if the kid sneaks out and becomes an addict? I had this debate with Vijcht a while ago and while we never really finished because I just kind of got tired of the same old debate getting tossed around and no answers being accepted it looks like a common trait to deny any good that free will may do in this argument, also to take all the responsiblity of someones actions away from them.  Thats one idea people love to believe... that nothing will be after death because they don't want to be dealt punishment  in the afterlife. To me that is ignorance out of fear.  However to make this perfectly clear because I know people think this isn't true for some idiotic reason... Christians do sin, they get punished for sin,  they have to make right any wrong they have done to anyone during the sin, Christians believe we are accountable for every action good or bad. I know that will cause even more debate but for some reason people tend to see Christians as people that never sin and if they do they will burn in hell for all eternity...

[Svirin Kerath]

Svirin to a point you made a page ago which I didn't quote because I forgot to copy it and I am about to leave....

God did made Adam and Eve, the earth, and He knew what they were gonna do. However it doesn't mean just cause they fell short God is to blame. If you tell a friend to not run head first into a wall and he does... does it mean you are to blame? You knew he would get hurt and you told him not to do it.  If a parent tells a child to not get into drugs because they know the child has a chance of becoming an addict or doing something they regret should the parent be blamed if the kid sneaks out and becomes an addict? I had this debate with Vijcht a while ago and while we never really finished because I just kind of got tired of the same old debate getting tossed around and no answers being accepted it looks like a common trait to deny any good that free will may do in this argument, also to take all the responsiblity of someones actions away from them.  Thats one idea people love to believe... that nothing will be after death because they don't want to be dealt punishment  in the afterlife. To me that is ignorance out of fear.  However to make this perfectly clear because I know people think this isn't true for some idiotic reason... Christians do sin, they get punished for sin,  they have to make right any wrong they have done to anyone during the sin, Christians believe we are accountable for every action good or bad. I know that will cause even more debate but for some reason people tend to see Christians as people that never sin and if they do they will burn in hell for all eternity...

I'm not sure why you brought up the "Christians sin," as I don't have an issue with that.

As for the rest of your argument, I don't really have an issue with that either. My issue here isn't with free will as much as it is with the choices themselves, and their consequences, both of which are things god has total control over. But as it was, Adam and Eve weren't even told the consequences, so i think my analogy is a bit more pertinent. Basically, given a bunch of possibilities, they were told that one was bad, but they weren't told why. They, in ignorance, chose that one possibility (and they were pretty ignorant to believe the devil).

God could have done more to prevent this, but more importantly, he arranged things in such away that what would happen did.

It's like he built a house of cards that was meant to come crashing down when just the one wrong one was pulled out, rather than a sturdy structure that stood strong after one brick was removed.

[KorrupT MerC]

Well, exactly, that's a good question. Why even create Lucifer, if he, being omniscient, knew what he would do later?

And God, being omnipotent, can still alter the nature of the suffering resulting from sin, because he has the power to do so. So then why doesn't he?

It is at this point that many theologians say "well, we cannot possibly understand god." But that seems a cop-out to me, and not the least bit unfair. Why do we stop questioning at this point? Why isn't there a satisfactory answer? If god created this universe to be consistent, (and if he is omniscient and omnipotent, he would have no need to make it inconsistent), then there is an objective "truth," or explanation of everything. Obviously we can't know everything about the universe, but we should be able to know about what is applied to us, and what we can't learn from nature god has to reveal himself. Why won't he reveal these answers, yet he'll reveal to Moses that it's a sin to eat pig meat?

Refer back to being tested to whether, even though you are suffering, will you still show your love and obedience to God, and if you do you will be rewarded in Heaven, if not you will be banished to Hell. I believe that would be the most satisfactory the answer can get, it seems cruel to us because we are the ones suffering, though if we werent the ones suffering but on-lookers and we observed everything that happened in this world, we may have a better understanding of why such things are happening.

Free will is our gift and our curse, God knows what we are going to do, but that does not mean we are stripped of our free will because he already knows what is going to happen as some would mistakenly take that as our path already being set. He knows what we will do before we do it but he did not choose it for us, we chose that, he just knew we were going to make that certain choice before we did. As he is Past, Present, and Future. So because we have free will, we cannot blame God for what we did wrong and we cannot ask him to intervene to the point of a drastic change, although, miracles do happen.

Its a test, if you cannot view life as such, then most of the answers your looking for cannot be answered.

[Graham]

 

Adam and Eve weren't even told the consequences

Genesis 2:17
 

God could have done more to prevent this, but more importantly, he arranged things in such away that what would happen did.

So you want a world in which God makes every move for you? Or do you want one to pick and choose what you think is right or wrong.

God isn't some trickster behind a bush waiting for someone to pass... He put the tree in because He wanted us to have free will. Slaves are not followers.

It's like he built a house of cards that was meant to come crashing down when just the one wrong one was pulled out, rather than a sturdy structure that stood strong after one brick was removed.

Earth is still  here.. so is Christianity.. so is God... We just have less contact with Him now... the card house didn't explode yet...

[KorrupT MerC]

God isn't some trickster behind a bush waiting for someone to pass... He put the tree in because He wanted us to have free will. Slaves are not followers.

Thats actually a great way of putting it, free will couldn't exist if there were only things that represent good, it would defeat the purpose. For free will to exist there has to be an opposing view, that way we can make a choice of which we prefer

[Svirin Kerath]

Refer back to being tested to whether, even though you are suffering, will you still show your love and obedience to God, and if you do you will be rewarded in Heaven, if not you will be banished to Hell. I believe that would be the most satisfactory the answer can get, it seems cruel to us because we are the ones suffering, though if we werent the ones suffering but on-lookers and we observed everything that happened in this world, we may have a better understanding of why such things are happening.

Free will is our gift and our curse, God knows what we are going to do, but that does not mean we are stripped of our free will because he already knows what is going to happen as some would mistakenly take that as our path already being set. He knows what we will do before we do it but he did not choose it for us, we chose that, he just knew we were going to make that certain choice before we did. As he is Past, Present, and Future. So because we have free will, we cannot blame God for what we did wrong and we cannot ask him to intervene to the point of a drastic change, although, miracles do happen.

Its a test, if you cannot view life as such, then most of the answers your looking for cannot be answered.

I don't really want to get into free will, because it can get so convoluted with the knowing-what-we're-gonna-do-but-letting-us-"choose"-anyway thing.

I'll address more on suffering. If it is a test, then it should be given to everyone, to be fair.

It's like.. say you're in school, and everyone is in the same class, but for some strange reason, the teacher gives some students a really hard test, while others she gives tests with lesser degrees of difficulty. You can tell it's harder because those students begin to get visibly frustrated, eventually they become intensely frustrated. And while you can understand the concept of a "harder" test, you have no idea what that test is actually like, as you can't take it yourself.

And that still makes suffering of innocent children who die before the age of reason pointless, as the test is unnecessary because they go to heaven anyhow.

[Will]

so as I can understand from your post, that non-existant god (by my opinion) is a saditst that enjoys to make people suffer. Why doesn't he just kill me right now, he would rid the world of an infidel or maybe that's why he won't touch me?

[Svirin Kerath]

so as I can understand from your post, that non-existant god (by my opinion) is a saditst that enjoys to make people suffer. Why doesn't he just kill me right now, he would rid the world of an infidel or maybe that's why he won't touch me?

Now there are two things to consider. One is that there is no god and your challenge went to no one, and all suffering is the result of flaws in terms of nature's ability to foster human life, or simply organisms and chemicals doing their own thing.

Another is that there is a god, and it either choses to allow suffering or is unable to prevent it. Such a god that could not prevent it would then probably be unable to kill you right now, while a god that could probably has little feelings for humans at all and wouldn't care enough about you to kill you anyhow.

[Twistkill]

Gaaah, not the contradiction of omniscience and omnipotence...

I can't even explain it, someone else help me out here.

God loves us to the point of free will, and when we suffer, God does not give us anything that we cannot handle... they are tests of our faith. He doesn't intervene because than we wouldn't have free will anymore, but he still knows what choice you're going to make. If you don't believe in him, then he still loves you, he simply wishes for you to choose whether or not to believe in him. We cannot explain his actions, so if you're going to try and continue to question what God does, we simply can't answer you... and, if you don't believe in him, this doesn't even affect your life anyway.

You could care less about him, and yet you're trying to disprove millions of people's belief based on some analogies...

[KorrupT MerC]

honestly, he's not trying to make anyone change their faith, thats up to the person, free will . Lets not forget, its a discussion, no one is forcing their opinions on anybody, its just everyone is coming to an understanding, and im actually enjoying it, as i wanted, its opening my mind up a bit although my views havent changed, its interesting to see the questions he has.

BUT... we have gone a bit off-topic here.

[Svirin Kerath]

You could care less about him, and yet you're trying to disprove millions of people's belief based on some analogies...

Jesus tried to disprove the Pharisees using analogies, also known as parables, as well as use them to revolutionize Jewish faith. I'm not trying to disprove anything, though. I honestly don't know what is true. Personally, I think it's arrogant to assume there is no god on the grounds that it's "unthinkable," or "seems impossible," because that's merely a matter of perception, and just as a god can seem so unreal and impossible to one person, a god can seem real and essential to another.

I will argue that people suffer through things that they can't handle, cases that lead to suicide, or death due to a lack of a "will to live." The latter's more debatable, but suicide is a good indicator of someone's not being able to handle something, because it indicates that their human tendency towards survival has been totally overridden by despair.

But yeah, way off topic.

Creationism and Intelligent Design are possible. I want to get out of the way that I have no problem with anyone who believes in them on matters of faith.

But the only scientific explanations so far are the big bang, which I take with a huge grain of salt, and evolution, which I take a much much smaller grain of salt with.

None of the above are completely reliable, because they occurred before written history, and we cannot test backwards in time.

If I had to bet on one though, it would have to be evolution, and I will tell you why.

It cannot be tested, because we can't go back in time, but it can be disproven, and it can be used to make predictions. So far it hasn't been disproven (though many would have you believe otherwise), and it predicted in the late 1800's what we found in the 20th century and later; namely, biological/genetic evidence, paleontological evidence, and geological evidence. *Braces self*

[ghg]

God isn't an explaination as to how the universe just exploded out from nothing. It just brings up the same question as to where god came from and in the infinite time it existed, why he suddenly decided to make the universe.

[panda_bear_smoking]

i have never seen a real anwser to this question



everything was created by god but who created god

[Pie]

i have never seen a real anwser to this question



everything was created by god but who created god

It's the same,
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
If god is the chicken, how did he come into existence(if he exists) if there was no greater being from which he could come from and vice versa, There is no real answer to that particular question, there is always a but.

[Graham]

i have never seen a real anwser to this question



everything was created by god but who created god

Oh my... you are so smart... with that one thought everything I have ever believed is crumbling around me... my world is in ruins.


Even though I doubt you actually have asked this to a Christian I will give you an answer. Christians believe God is all-powerful He is the only thing that has always been and will always be. Its faith... if you can't accept that answer then you will never get a "real" answer, basically its your fault.

[mar77a]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The chicken. Here's the logical explanation: if the egg had come before the chicken, then this FIRST egg would've been different from all the eggs we know nowadays. Why? Simple because it needed no chicken to develop correctly. However, we see that eggs do need the mother chicken and according to genetic we should be seeing 'independent' eggs these days, which we don't. Therefor, the chicken was first.

Bit off topic.

[Mangled*]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Archäopteryx did.

[a-4-year-old]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

The bible says that the chicken did.