Is the Barret balanced?

[Blah]

I see a lot of complaints about the m79 on this forum (many of which I share), but I really feel like the barret is worse.  The start up time has done very little, in my opinion, to disuade people from using it, and it is not much weaker than before.  My problem with this gun, and why I think it needs to be toned, is that it has the best range of any gun in the game, the fastest bullet, and kills in one shot.  I really don't see what the counter is here.  With the m79, you can at least stay away (assuming the map permits it), but staying far away from the barret won't do anything as they can still shoot you.  Personally, I'm not a huge fan of any of the 1 hit kill weapons, but the barret seems especially unfair as it is a 1 hit kill that is undodgeable.  I know that you can bink it, but this is pretty spotty (sometimes they shoot right through the bink), and the range on the barret allows them to shoot you before you can bink them anyway.  I don't really have any solution in mind, but I'm curious if anyone else thinks that this is a problem.   (Note: I am _not_ saying that the barret is an easy gun to use or that it is a "noob" weapon.  The barret is, in fact, one of the harder guns to use.  But that doesn't change the fact that it's overpowered.  And it can really ruin the game if a few decent barreters are on the other team.  You just keep getting shot without being able to dodge or do anything.  No fun.)

[Gold]

Its completely fine how it is.

[Blues]

I like it, it's fine as it is.
I actually like it more with the start up time.

[Mr. Domino]

The start up time has done very little, in my opinion, to disuade people from using it, and it is not much weaker than before. 

I'm no Barret fan, but nothing should ever be done to a weapon in an attempt to stop people from using it. I think the Barret would be perfect if people could stop preloading shots to still be able to fire right away.

[Blah]

Well I guess what I meant is that I've seen about the same number of people using it, and its effectiveness hasn't really decreased.  Maybe it's partly because of the preloading, but I just don't see how this weapon is balanced.  The only real counter seems to be to attack in groups (and hope they shoot your buddy first) or just plain hope that they miss you.  Otherwise, if they're good, you're pretty much dead, which can result in some pretty aggrivating matches.    I'm not sure that anything can be done without changing the barret drastically, as it seems to me that it is a flawed concept to make the gun with the longest range and fastest bullet also a 1 hit kill.  It would be nice if it were at least _in theory_ possible to dodge the bullet, as it is at least possible to dodge the m79.   If I were going to propose anything be done about it, I guess I would suggest that the bink be increased a little more, as I don't see the bullet speed being reduced (although that would be nice too--I can always hope).

[Emperor]

I think barret is fine as it is. If you change it too much, it loses the sniping properties it's supposed to have.
Although i rarely use barret, I have no problem with others using it now.

[Camping_carl]

that lag shot is bull crap im a pull the trigger see reactions kinda guy.. i cant hold it that long.. and i dont want to wait for a bullet to leave the freaking barrel it needs to be out of the barrel before i even lift my finger from the fire button..

[Plonkoon]

The barret is meant for camping, and the movement penalty makes it require skill and practice to use as an assault weapon.  I like it how it is.

[General Wong]

This discussion thread is just like all the ones about rugers and m79s. If you are angry after a particularly bad game against ruger, m79 or barret wielders, don't come here trying to get their weapon weakened. I for one use the sniper like an assault rifle because I AM GOOD AT IT. Don't go making the barret weaker just because you think that barrets are too powerful. Maybe you need to learn a few things about the barret. I may be able to take out 2 or 3 people with a LAW, barret, and nade combo. But in my experience, you can damage the barret wielder's aim with a few good shots from an auto. That makes it EXTREMELY hard for the barret wielder to actually hit you. That's how I defeat barret wielders when I'm not using a barret myself. The minimi is one gun useful for such an attack. All in all, I think that the barret is fine the way it is.

[Blah]

Don't go making the barret weaker just because you think that barrets are too powerful.

That doesn't make any sense...If I think it's too powerful, and if the majority of other people agreed (which doesn't seem to be the case), shouldn't it be looked into?  And I didn't come here after a particularly bad game.  I came here after having played Soldat for a decent amount of time with what I consider to be a problem.  As far as I understand it, this forum is for weapon balance discussions.  That's exactly what this is, and I have tried to present it in a dispassionate and productive tone.  I would appreciate it if you would do the same.

I'll be honest here.  My main problem with the barret is that it just makes the game less fun for the other people.  It's not easy to use, I'll give you that.  But in the hands of people who are good with it, it sucks the fun out of the game.  It simply is not fun to get repeatedly shot with a bullet that travels a million miles an hour and kills you instantly.  As I see it, Soldat is an action game.  Most of the fun comes from the gun battles.  But the barret lets you kill somebody from the other side of the screen without even giving them a chance to retaliate.  There's just not much fun (or action) in that.

At least the m79 has a counter.  Stay out of its range (which on some maps is undoable, but I digress).  If maps weren't full of m79ers, I don't really that the gun itself would be an issue.  But the barret has no limit to its range.  The _only_ "solution" is to bink it, but this is not always effective and besides, the barret has a better range than your auto.   A barret user can zoom and shoot the auto before he even sees the barret.  Even if this doesn't happen, the barret's start up time is counteracted by its near-infinite bullet speed.  Before the auto's bullets even gets to the barret user, the barret can fire and kill the auto.

Can someone explain how it is fair that a gun that has an undodgeable bullet and the best range in the game kills in 1 hit?

[General Wong]

In real life (and in the game), the barret, a gun originally meant "to pierce tank armour"-(from Mike Marcinkowski the designer of the game), would obviously kill with one hit. If you propose that the barret not be a one-hit kill, then go ask mike to change the name of the gun and decrease the damage drastically. See how players take it. You don't seem to use the gun very often, but for players like me who use the barret at least half the time they play, that would be like cutting off an arm in a hand to hand fight. The zoom with the scope is not always very effective because only people who have honed their skill with the barret can hit you everytime. Only a few people I know can get off a shot and kill every single time (like Love_Soth). In my 1.5 years of experience playing soldat, I've been killed a lot more times by m79s, rugers, deagles, or autos than by barrets.

[Blah]

Well first of all, real life has very little bearing on Soldat other than to supply the names of the guns.  Yes, the barret would kill anybody in one shot in real life, but so would all of the other guns (assuming you hit the person in the right place, anyway).  So I guess by your logic, we should change the name of pretty much every gun.  Besides, realism is and should be sacrificed in the interest of making the game more enjoyable.

Secondly, though, I wasn't really suggesting that the barret shouldn't be a 1 hit kill.  (Although, does anybody have any opinion on making it a 1 hit kill if it hits the torso or head, and do like 80% damage if it hits the legs?  Come to think of it I don't know if this is even feasible with soldat's hit detection.)  I wasn't really proposing anything to be honest, I just wanted to gauge whether others thought that it was a problem or not.

And I realize that some of the points that I have brought up are applicable only to people who have spent a long time honing their skill.   But the problem I see is that barret skill (as opposed to skill in the other weapons) can completely take over the game.  If someone is really good with an ak-47 for example, or a ruger, or even a m79, you at least get a chance to retaliate or dodge or do something.   If someone is really good with a barret, you're pretty much dead.

[jrgp]

I think it is fine how it is, why would you want to make it stronger, Its a one-shot-one-kill?

If anything it should be to make the bullet go through more bodies, so like if 4 people are in a line and you shoot the first one they should all die, or atleast should be sevearly wounded.

Also, I personally think the startup time was a bad idea, I didn't see a problem back in 1.2.1 when it didn't exist.

[Blah]

I think it is fine how it is, why would you want to make it stronger, Its a one-shot-one-kill?

I'm not sure anybody was really advocating making it stronger.   Other than the 2 people who voted for that and the person who complained about the start up time....

[MofoNofo]

Remove/make start up smaller. Who the hell wants to hold a mouse button for as long as the barretts trigger is.. like, by the time the bullet goes out, they nade and bink you

[General Wong]

I think Blah just has a personal vendetta against barrets and barreters. I'm pretty sure that Michal gives changing the damage of the sniper so that it does less damage to certain parts of the body a SOLID NO. You pretty much contradicted yourself by saying that the head should have more damage etc. when shot because that makes it REALISTIC. But earlier, you said that soldat is valued for its UNREALISTICNESS. Please stop complaining about the barret, as 8 people out of 10 so far have said that the barret is FINE the way it is, or it should be IMPROVED by decreasing reload or hold time.

[DaArbalest]

Well first of all, real life has very little bearing on Soldat other than to supply the names of the guns.  Yes, the barret would kill anybody in one shot in real life, but so would all of the other guns (assuming you hit the person in the right place, anyway).  So I guess by your logic, we should change the name of pretty much every gun.  Besides, realism is and should be sacrificed in the interest of making the game more enjoyable.

Secondly, though, I wasn't really suggesting that the barret shouldn't be a 1 hit kill.  (Although, does anybody have any opinion on making it a 1 hit kill if it hits the torso or head, and do like 80% damage if it hits the legs?  Come to think of it I don't know if this is even feasible with soldat's hit detection.)  I wasn't really proposing anything to be honest, I just wanted to gauge whether others thought that it was a problem or not.

And I realize that some of the points that I have brought up are applicable only to people who have spent a long time honing their skill.   But the problem I see is that barret skill (as opposed to skill in the other weapons) can completely take over the game.  If someone is really good with an ak-47 for example, or a ruger, or even a m79, you at least get a chance to retaliate or dodge or do something.   If someone is really good with a barret, you're pretty much dead.

I pretty much support the idea of one hit kill on torso or head and 80%on the limbs. 

Sure, it's true that you can't retaliate against a one-hit kill weapon like Barret, but you can still outsmart it.  If you know the map, stay in constant motion, have someone to cover you (teammwork), do some unpredictable movements, and learn from your mistakes. You make it that hard for a sniper to get you. Soldat might be unrealistic but it's not completely mindless.

You could argue that Barret outrange you, but is it invincible even in 1vs1?  No.  Their are ways to counter it.  Traditionally the way would be anti-sniper with a sniper.  The logic is upside down but it's plausible.  This way you can scout ahead by following ur barret's shot to foresee any waiting dangers.  However, it's still possible to counter a barret without using a barret.  If you predict likely camp spots you can enter it from high altitude (angles).  Remeber that the snipers vision is still  one screen in zoom, THERE ARE ALWAYS BLIND SPOTS.  Now even if your out of fuel you can always leap-run, this way your constantly shifting between two positions which gives u a probability to EVADE the shot.  Why? Because simply the barret shot is NOT that fast. It may look fast but it still takes around a sec to travel through one map, maybe slower. One sec is enough for the common probability factor(some call it luck) to take a effect.  I strongly suggest that you analysize the M-82 and it's capabilities in game to find a way to counteract them.  You will find that it's shots lose velocity dramatically after about 3 screens (not too sure on this one, but should be close to it) and you often have to aim a slight bit higher on what your aiming to actually hit it. 

Check this post and see if it changes you view a bit: http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=2475.0

Bad moments happen in games, but we just have to it take it like a man and find a way to overcome them.  There is always a way. 

P.S. Please DO NOT resort to hacking.

[Blah]

Remove/make start up smaller. Who the hell wants to hold a mouse button for as long as the barretts trigger is.. like, by the time the bullet goes out, they nade and bink you

Wasn't that the point of the start up time?   Why should it be removed if its accomplishing what its intended to do?  (Although from what I understand, there is some way to work around the start up).

I think Blah just has a personal vendetta against barrets and barreters.

Well I think I was pretty honest.  I said why I didn't like barrets and the negative effect that I feel that they have on the game.  I'm not sure I would call it a vandetta, but whatever.  Although I don't see why you feel the need to attack me.  I just stated my opinion and asked if anybody agreed.  I haven' t insulted anyone for using the barret; I haven't called it a "noob" weapon; I haven't said it should be removed.  I just wanted to know if I was alone in thinking it was a little overpowered.

I'm pretty sure that Michal gives changing the damage of the sniper so that it does less damage to certain parts of the body a SOLID NO.

Well if he has then nevermind.  I wasn't aware of this, but I'll take your word for it.

You pretty much contradicted yourself by saying that the head should have more damage etc. when shot because that makes it REALISTIC. But earlier, you said that soldat is valued for its UNREALISTICNESS.

What are you talking about?  I'm confident that if you reread through my posts I _never_ advocated locational damage to make Soldat more realistic.  I suggested it as a possibility, but not to make Soldat more realistic.  Rather, I suggested it as a possible balancing tool.  You can disagree with me, but please don't try to distort what I write.  My view on realism in Soldat is that when realism conflicts with gameplay, gameplay should win out.  That doesn't mean that realism and gameplay are always in conflict or that they can't occasionally go hand in hand.


Also, I'm really trying to discuss more than anything, whether or not you see it as complaining.

Edit: Lol, I don't think I ever suggested resorting to hacking, and I never intend to.   I realize that it loses speed after like 3 screens, but I'm more concerned with the barret's immediate zoom and fighting it while it is on the same screen as you.  Within that range, as far as I can tell, it is pretty much functionally undodgeable.

"Traditionally the way would be anti-sniper with a sniper. "

I understand, but if the counter to a weapon is using the same weapon against itself, that seems to indicate a balance problem, to me anyway.

As for the other ways to counter it, like spraying probably camping spots, I understand those too.  But my problem is more with the weapon itself than with the specific tactic of camping with it.   In my experience, the barret, even with the start up time, often has time to shoot you before you can bink him.

As for irregular movement patterns, I make use of this tactic myself, of course.  And the jump running is a good idea simply because you can go faster.  But it seems to me that you shouldn't have to move in a weird manner and then pray that the particular barreter isn't good enough to hit you.  There should be something proactive to do rather than just hope that they miss because you move in a weird pattern.  Certainly, there's something proactive that can be done against the other weapons.  The m79 you can stay away from (map permitting), the autos you can kill before they kill you.  There isn't a similar counter against the barret, if you get my meaning.   You have to hope for operator error to save you in many cases..

"Bad moments happen in games, but we just have to it take it like a man and find a way to overcome them."


I understand this too.  And honestly, this topic was not created because of one bad experience.  it was created because of an issue that I have seen in the game for a long time.  (I _think_ I've been playing a little over a year?  I think I started in the spring of last year.  I don't really remember when I started to be honest.)  Everyone complained about it in 1.2.1 of course, but since then people seem to have accepted it.  Basically, to me it seems like it has many of the same issues it had in 1.2.1, so that's why I made this topic.









On a sidenote, it seems that there are nearly as many barrets in servers as there are m79's.  So even if none of them are particularly skilled, there's still a good chance that one of them is going to manage to hit you, and then you die.

[TDL]

Barret is fine as it is. Apart from one, really nasty thing that annoys me atleast.
Bink carryover.

I found this thing out a while back. When I get shot and have barret (thus getting me enormo bink) and decide to change to my trusty second weapon. The weapon will have the bink too. The bink takes almost five seconds to disappear (atleast with socom) and duriing that time you just can't hit a soldier sized target that is whatching you from a sunchair while sipping soda. Or anyother kind of soldier.


It's nice to see how well Blah has behaved.

[Zamorak]

It's perfectly fine as it is right now.
1 shot from most auto's and barret is fucked..