Was this designed to be as anti-intuitive as possible?

[peebs]

Soldat is fun as hell to play, but I've been messing with defining "way points" for the bots for the past couple HOURS.  What a waste of time!  This is completely frustrating and pointless.  Whoever designed Soldat really needs to RE-THINK how the bots are programmed to work.  There are a LOT easier ways to get things done.  I'm not just talking out my ass either - I'm a game programmer myself for over 12 years.

I'm sorry, this is just terrible.  This entire system is completely against intuition, and every little thing breaks it.  Please redesign how the AI works - it will make things easier on everyone.  Having waypoints that need to be pixel perfect is a waste of time.

~Sean

[Plonkoon]

He was a feaking teenager when he made it.  And It's really not that important how good the bots are because the game was meant for multiplayer.

[jrgp]

I do agree with peebs on this.

I would reccoemend that MM would redo the waypoint system, but then all of the maps with existing wapoints would have to be redone, and alot of new work would be done for nothing.

So, maybe it is better that nothing is changed.

[Mistercharles]

^Not nessecelery. Soldat could still be compatible with the old map files.

[peebs]

Sorry, I was a little frustrated with my first post.  But honestly, there are much better ways to program the AI.

It's basically a path-finding issue.  There is so much information on path-finding, and implementing a simple version of it in Soldat would be really easy (compared to how I imagine the current AI is programmed to function).

One easier system would be to allow the map designer to fill the map full of 2d rectangles that represent different areas.  Then link together the rectangles that are touching.  Then define paths from one flag to the other.  The bot can randomally choose one path.  His only job is to follow the scripted path via going from rectangle to rectangle.  The bot would choose when to thrust/jump on his own, based on where he calculates he needs to leave his current rectangle to get to the next one.

This type of system is used in Sierra adventure games where you click on one location, and the main character needs to walk from his current location to where you clicked.  It's very easy, and maps only need to have maybe 20-50 rectangles, which translates into a very small tree datastructure.

Here's a quick example I drew in paint:



It's very easy for the bot to figure out how to go from rectangle A to rectangle F.  All the bot thinks about is rectangles - nothing else.  It just follows the paths that are available (which are defined by the map designer).  The map designer could suggest path "ABCDEF" and "AGHIF", and the bot can randomly choose either one, or choose a path based on where he is (if he's in D, then he knows to choose ABCDEF because D is in that path).

This is just one design that would be a million times easier to implement and use than the current one.

~Sean

[VijchtiDoodah]

Waypoints work just fine if you know how to use them, and you can do exactly what you described above.  There was a great waypointing tutorial on the old forums, I'll try to find it for you.

Edit: Looks like they were carried over.  Everything you need to know and more here.

[Keron Cyst]

That rectangle function would be a million times easier to use, but I don't know if it's a million times easier to implement as you claim... and besides, if Marcinkowski was somehow insanely persuaded to code that, I'd be out of a job!

If you don't like playtesting, moving a wypt. a few pixels, playtesting, moving a wypt. a few pixels again, playtesting, etc. you won't like waypoints, because that's really all they are; a perfectionists' beloved. Perhaps I can give you a few pointers on the current waypoint system (which, unless MM is given a billion Euros, will never be changed; more demanding people than you regarding waypoints have also met to a wall of no avail).

For one, always play in Windowed Soldat if you don't already, and play so long that you eventually memorize the movement behavior of soldaten. That way you'll have to waypoint-playtest-waypoint-playtest less and less.