Author Topic: Solutions to decrease the M79  (Read 5575 times)

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Offline Bjarne Betjent

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Solutions to decrease the M79
« on: March 19, 2008, 03:52:27 pm »
I want to share some of my thoughts of what could been done with the M79 to make it to more of a "fair" weapon.
Please say what of this suggestions you actually likes, if you don't like any of them, please say so, but add what of them is the best if you're forced to choose one.

- Take away the "granade effect" you miss someone badly, but still kill them because they are at low health, wich isnt possible with any other weapon

- Increase the reload time a little.

- Dunno what it's called, but like the sniper, you need to hold down the mouse button for a little time before the shot actually fires. Dosnt have to be as long as the sniper, but just a little, so M79's can't kill immediately it sees someone.

- Had one more thing to suggest, but cannot remember what, LOL ;D

Offline PaFel

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2008, 03:57:35 pm »
Damn... couldn't yo' all leave this bloody grenade launcher alone?! Let's add startup time to every weapons except aug! It would be fair! Of course the game would begin even more realistic!... The names of weapons could be changed to "S*ity GL", "OMG Barrett SuX coz it'S .50 CAL! like CANON!". Hey. It really have no sense...

Offline Vilho

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2008, 04:02:31 pm »
What's the big deal with M79, I can't understand that you're creating these solutions just because you don't like it.

Damn... couldn't yo' all leave this bloody grenade launcher alone?! Let's add startup time to every weapons except aug! It would be fair! Of course the game would begin even more realistic!... The names of weapons could be changed to "S*ity GL", "OMG Barrett SuX coz it'S .50 CAL! like CANON!". Hey. It really have no sense...

And by the way: PaFel's right.

Offline Bjarne Betjent

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2008, 04:04:52 pm »
This is my opinion + many others opinions - It's overpowered.

Offline ghg

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2008, 04:15:42 pm »
Apparently every fecking weapon is either overpowered or nerfed for being overpowered. Why not just triple player health?

(Ok feckergot software, lemme post already 5 odd times)
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Offline PaFel

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2008, 04:23:31 pm »
... Technical info about standard 40mm grenades...

...last column is best...

El_Spec

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2008, 04:41:53 pm »
More of a weapon balance suggestion.

But I do agree that the M79 does needs a delay like a Barrett.  Its too damn easy to kill players with it.

Offline Thinkto urself

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2008, 04:51:26 pm »
The M79 is fine with or without a nerf, you see someone with a M79, you have a steyr aug, ak, or anyother long range automatic, they're doomed, I don't see why so many players are unable to avoid the M79's grenade. It seems like the M79 itself frustrates players, even though it doesn't rack in as many players as other guns. The paranoia of the M79 launcher is way over used. As said before, it doesn't rack in as many kills as other guns, and it is very easy to dodge a M79 grenade.

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Offline PaFel

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2008, 04:58:37 pm »
Agree with Thinkto. It's mainly psychological effect. Caused by "anti-M79 propaganda". ;D

El_Spec

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2008, 04:59:41 pm »
Compared to the speed and damage bullets from the automatics have will have no effect to a M79.  It takes several shots to take someone down, the M79 can instantly kill an attacker. Unless you're from a far range, the M79 is the dominant weapon.

Offline Espadon

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2008, 05:02:53 pm »
What about bink for the M79?

It could also have a side effect that it encourages using the weapon as an indirect-fire weapon, like in real life.
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Offline Pragma

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2008, 05:09:32 pm »
More of a weapon balance suggestion.

But I do agree that the M79 does needs a delay like a Barrett.  Its too damn easy to kill players with it.

I disagree.  It's easy to kill at point-blank, or suicide other players, but it takes skill to use this at range.  For the most part, that makes it barely any better than using plain grenades.  Its pretty well balanced, provided the opposition knows how to cope with it's strengths.  Its just fine the way it is.

I play using the m79 almost exclusively, and I've learned that the only reason why it's a nuissance to other players is because they're not adapting their tactics accordingly.  You can't fight an m79 user like you would someone with a AUG - you can't just hover and out-aim your opponent - you have to move, and select your cover carefully too. :)

That said, I get pwned all the time by pros in the pub servers.  Even in good games, my K/D ratio is total crap since using this thing gets you killed - a lot.  Experienced players know the weaknesses of all weapons and how to exploit them.

Rugers, and Baretts are more than a match for this weapon due to a punishingly high damage capacity and accuracy well outside the m79's range.  MP5s also rip up m79 users since it's easy to spray a whole clip at point-blank range while the m79 is still reloading.  I've died due to combat knife and grenade strikes almost as many times as I have from regular weapons fire - mostly because of the reload time on my own weapon.

Also, it's only effective as an assalt weapon in solitary combat.  Target #2 usually has my number since I'm still reloading.

Honestly, the m79 is a so-so support weapon, but it's real strength is as a CTF machine.  Rushing with three grenades on your belt allows you to deplete a sizable chunk of the opposition in their base, and then 'nade boost out before they can respawn.  However, a team with even just one good sniper, ruger or MP5 on defence can make that a no-go very quickly.

Date Posted: March 19, 2008, 06:05:30 pm
The M79 is fine with or without a nerf, you see someone with a M79, you have a steyr aug, ak, or anyother long range automatic, they're doomed, I don't see why so many players are unable to avoid the M79's grenade. It seems like the M79 itself frustrates players, even though it doesn't rack in as many players as other guns. The paranoia of the M79 launcher is way over used. As said before, it doesn't rack in as many kills as other guns, and it is very easy to dodge a M79 grenade.

This.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 05:12:10 pm by Pragma »

Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake.  Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big old storm right in the eye and says, "Give me your best shot. I can take it."

Offline PaFel

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2008, 05:15:32 pm »
Pragma, I fully agree with you. M79 should be used as team support weapon.

And yes, it's assault weapon. Good tactic is to throw few frag's at enemy base and then shoot with M79. That creates big explosion that at least pulls enemies away so you can get flag and run out covering by Mk.23 fire.

Btw: out for today.

Offline Duck Boi

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2008, 05:45:01 pm »
I think, a smaller speed and more damage, so people get splashback from point blank shots
And I thought m79 had a delay? Just very very short..

Offline Ziem

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2008, 06:15:04 pm »
M79 is ok. It's overused by noobs - just due to the fact that it's 1-hit kill.

It has 3 sec reload.
It has 40 bink (1.5 -  +15 bink.)
It has moveacc.
It has short range.

What's wrong with it?

Offline Snake

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2008, 06:21:26 pm »
M79 is ok. It's overused by noobs - just due to the fact that it's 1-hit kill.

It has 3 sec reload.
It has 40 bink (1.5 - +15 bink.)
It has moveacc.
It has short range.

What's wrong with it?

I agree with Ziem

Offline Espadon

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #16 on: March 19, 2008, 06:29:32 pm »
Bink should be 80~100. 40 still isn't enough bink to be easily pressured by autos.
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Offline Graham

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #17 on: March 19, 2008, 06:29:41 pm »
You can unload enough bullets(with all weapons) onto a player with a m79 while they are reloading to kill them. If you miss then its your fault. M79ers have to learn how to play against everyone else. The barrett was nerfed because it could shoot across entire maps at a fast rate. The only weapon to have less range than a m79 is the spas.

In short, if you can't are constantly being killed by one weapon.. YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG! Stop crying cause you run headstrong into a m79er and lose.
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Offline Espadon

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2008, 06:30:27 pm »
Map choice also is a factor though. Ugh, not ctf_Ash again.
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Offline Mastadi

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2008, 08:57:27 pm »
I believe m79 should have bigger self-damage. It would prevent kamikazing with it.

Offline Lord Frunkamunch

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2008, 09:25:20 pm »
- Take away the "granade effect" you miss someone badly, but still kill them because they are at low health, wich isnt possible with any other weapon

That's because most other weapons DON'T FIRE GRENADES.

As you may or may not know, grenades have this nifty habit of exploding. It's kinda what makes them useful at a weapon instead of a glorified slingshot.
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Offline Ziem

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2008, 02:39:50 am »
I believe m79 should have bigger self-damage. It would prevent kamikazing with it.
Kamikazing? Where? On 16 ppl ctf pub? Rotfl.

If you can't stop M79'er and he 'kamikazes', or you can't dodge a nade, you simply deserve to die.

Bink should be 80~100. 40 still isn't enough bink to be easily pressured by autos.
Yeah, let's have a short-mid range weapon with bink like barret.. M79 is almost useless against autos on main route.

Offline Hair|Trigger

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2008, 05:56:28 am »
The thing with m79 if anyone really cares.... is that it annoys the HELL out of people who go against it.¬  Even i get pessed off at it.¬  We should really do something to make it less annoying, not reduce its power.¬  like make it a nuclear bomb?¬  give it the realistic specs that was mentioned before and give everyone something to laugh about.¬  Yeah we should do that, for one version, we should make the m79 like this, so it kills EVERYONE on the map including the person firing.¬  Then when the next version comes, it is back to normal but nobody will call it "noob".¬  ¬ lol
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 06:01:00 am by Hair|Trigger »

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Offline ViN

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2008, 06:26:37 am »
Wow, if you can't avoid an m79 or a nade on open spaces, sucks to be you.
M79/spas are the easiest weapons to fight against if you're an auto user.
I guess most of the haters are people from public servers, who move like bots.

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Offline Pragma

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2008, 09:16:31 am »
I believe m79 should have bigger self-damage. It would prevent kamikazing with it.

Uh, dead is still dead my friend.  Increasing the self-damage amount would only make the kamakazi more dead than normal. :)

Date Posted: March 20, 2008, 10:03:55 am
Wow, if you can't avoid an m79 or a nade on open spaces, sucks to be you.
M79/spas are the easiest weapons to fight against if you're an auto user.
I guess most of the haters are people from public servers, who move like bots.

Exactly.

While I've never played in gather, or a pro match, there are enough pro players in pub to give us all a taste of how to actually play.  Rolls, backflips, SPAS boosting, 'nade boosting, weapon stripping, fast-knife throwing, and most importantly m79 dodging - literally a league apart.  It is by their presence alone that I have learned how to use my weapon of choice more effectively.

And you know what, I get 'sploded, stabbed and shot a bunch myself.  Do I blame the game mechanics?  Hell no.  In a very Socratic way I understand that we all know nothing and, by extension, we all suck; yet there is this potential to have it all if only we're paying attention.   So I just pick myself back up and resolve to do better next time.

The whiners need to seriously play some old-skool Quake with some real professionals, and get fragged to hell and back with someone running the map with 90+ rockets in their inventory.  Talk about unbalanced weapons.  Soldat probably has the most balanced weapons configuration in a multiplayer game since Starcraft.

----

The solution here is simple: someone should start a normal mode server that doesn't allow the m79 as a weapon choice.  Better yet, ask the "Elite!" guys to set one up as "Run and Gun" as a counterpart to "One Shots"; no nades, no m79 and no LAW.  People looking to better their skill at dodging bullets, instead of bombs, can log in and frag away.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 09:20:49 am by Pragma »

Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake.  Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big old storm right in the eye and says, "Give me your best shot. I can take it."

Offline 8th_account

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2008, 10:19:06 am »
To all you wnb pros who consider M79 to be "fine" and tell everyone from Joe Pubber to SCTFL winners to "learn to dodge," here are some month long snips from various servers.

Semi-pro gather... most used primary, 50% more kills than barret...
Array
(
    [Grenade] => 52255
    [M79] => 32812
    [Steyr AUG] => 30937
    [Ruger 77] => 30694
    [Barrett M82A1] => 22899
    [Combat Knife] => 22806
    [Ak-74] => 21023
    [Desert Eagles] => 19864
    [Spas-12] => 17428
    [HK MP5] => 16977
    [LAW] => 7141
    [Selfkill] => 6297
    [FN Minimi] => 4163
    [Hands] => 3359
    [Chainsaw] => 508
    [XM214 Minigun] => 275
)

Pro gather before the 1.5 WM was used... 2nd most used primary, almost trice as many kills as barret...
Array
(
    [Grenade] => 17697
    [Desert Eagles] => 14699
    [M79] => 11694
    [Ruger 77] => 11595
    [Combat Knife] => 8284
    [Steyr AUG] => 6833
    [Barrett M82A1] => 6348
    [Spas-12] => 6151
    [Ak-74] => 5963
    [HK MP5] => 4148
    [Selfkill] => 3013
    [LAW] => 1688
    [FN Minimi] => 1412
    [Hands] => 934
    [Chainsaw] => 158
    [XM214 Minigun] => 57
)

sctfl10 server... 4th most used primary, twice as many kills as barret... still pretty bad.
Array
(
    [Grenade] => 34795
    [Steyr AUG] => 28495
    [Ak-74] => 25724
    [Ruger 77] => 17458
    [Combat Knife] => 13473
    [M79] => 13077
    [HK MP5] => 11160
    [Spas-12] => 8986
    [Barrett M82A1] => 6445
    [Desert Eagles] => 5996
    [FN Minimi] => 2585
    [Selfkill] => 2174
    [Hands] => 2051
    [LAW] => 1793
    [Chainsaw] => 182
    [XM214 Minigun] => 153
)

Offline Bjarne Betjent

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #26 on: March 20, 2008, 12:01:30 pm »
You can unload enough bullets(with all weapons) onto a player with a m79 while they are reloading to kill them. If you miss then its your fault. M79ers have to learn how to play against everyone else. The barrett was nerfed because it could shoot across entire maps at a fast rate. The only weapon to have less range than a m79 is the spas.

In short, if you can't are constantly being killed by one weapon.. YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG! Stop crying cause you run headstrong into a m79er and lose.

Lets say one map was just finished on a ctf server, a new map starts and you're rushing forward with a auto or something, in the middle of the map, u meet a M79 guy, who instant pushes his fire button, and explodes you.
What the hell can you do? There is no wepons who can compite to the M79

Offline Graham

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2008, 12:21:54 pm »
You can unload enough bullets(with all weapons) onto a player with a m79 while they are reloading to kill them. If you miss then its your fault. M79ers have to learn how to play against everyone else. The barrett was nerfed because it could shoot across entire maps at a fast rate. The only weapon to have less range than a m79 is the spas.

In short, if you can't are constantly being killed by one weapon.. YOU ARE DOING SOMETHING WRONG! Stop crying cause you run headstrong into a m79er and lose.

Lets say one map was just finished on a ctf server, a new map starts and you're rushing forward with a auto or something, in the middle of the map, u meet a M79 guy, who instant pushes his fire button, and explodes you.
What the hell can you do? There is no wepons who can compite to the M79
Oh my gosh.... you mean a weapon is good for a certain situation? Should the spas be nerfed cause its a good close range weapon? Should the barrett be nerfed cause it is good for defense? Should the Minimi be nerfed cause its easy to spray with?

M79s are good for rushing and getting maybe 2 kills unless the user is skilled. Then again you can see an entire screen infront of you if you simple move your mouse a little forward. Which gives tons of time for a simple backflip which nulls the initial shot, leaving the m79er defenseless. Although I see where you are coming from... it took me MONTHS to master this move, during this time I played at least 5 hours a day.


Also good job on reading my previous post...

Quote
Stop crying cause you run headstrong into a m79er and lose.
@ii

Offline Bjarne Betjent

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2008, 12:37:38 pm »
IMO, the M79 are the ultimate weapon in too many situations, the only weak point about M79 is range, and thats it..

Offline PaFel

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #29 on: March 20, 2008, 01:50:19 pm »
Just pray that MM won't make a M32 MGL for M79 place. 6 grenades in magazine, sound like MP5 SD6 and fire int like in spas...

Offline ghg

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #30 on: March 20, 2008, 02:21:22 pm »
Use the M79 then?

Seriously, it is the ONLY weapon I've never really had trouble with. Maybe saws?
Just jump out of the way, they have a very limited shooting arc.

How is a long range sniper rifle designed to take out tanks not able to combat a short range grenade launcher?
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Offline PaFel

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #31 on: March 20, 2008, 02:25:00 pm »
How is a long range sniper rifle designed to take out tanks not able to combat a short range grenade launcher?

It's "skill"...

Offline Outcast

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2008, 02:59:28 pm »
I believe m79 should have bigger self-damage. It would prevent kamikazing with it.

I believe kamikaze is when the target and the player die, which would increase in your case.
o/

Offline ghg

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2008, 03:04:39 pm »
How is a long range sniper rifle designed to take out tanks not able to combat a short range grenade launcher?

It's "skill"...
So needs decreasing because skilled players can kill you with it? Gahh.
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Offline Pragma

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2008, 08:45:07 pm »
To all you wnb pros who consider M79 to be "fine" and tell everyone from Joe Pubber to SCTFL winners to "learn to dodge," here are some month long snips from various servers.

<stats snipped for brevity>

Thank you for injecting some acutal data into the discussion.  However a wise man once said: there's lies, damned lies and statistics. :)

I'm not trying to be thick-headed here, but that data lacks context.  I'd like to see those numbers weighted by the number of times the player spawned with each weapon; basically the K/D ratio for each weapon type.  Without that, there's no way to be sure that proportionally more people just happen to like using the m79 over most of the other weapons.

Also I disagree with drawing a line between the m79 and the barrett and claiming that something's wrong.  The barrett has a very low rate of fire and is most effective as a support weapon for carefully taking out one nuissance at a time.  FWIW, that's how it's used in real life.  I wouldn't ever expect it to dominate.

Date Posted: March 20, 2008, 09:41:47 pm
IMO, the M79 are the ultimate weapon in too many situations, the only weak point about M79 is range, and thats it..

*sigh* ... and the reload rate, and the firing arc, and the M.A.D. at close range, etc...

Just remember what ol' Jack Burton does when the earth quakes, the poison arrows fall from the sky, and the pillars of Heaven shake.  Yeah, Jack Burton just looks that big old storm right in the eye and says, "Give me your best shot. I can take it."

Offline Espadon

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2008, 09:11:36 am »
+3 seconds respawn time [lolol] for M79 selfkills would make people more careful about kamikazi'ing? :P
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Offline tehsnipah

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2008, 10:11:26 am »
m79 is alright, except they should have a law that no noobs are allowed to use it
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Offline PaFel

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2008, 10:51:23 am »
m79 is alright, except they should have a law that no noobs are allowed to use it

So how you would learn how to use it in no n00bish way? ;D

Offline Akira

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2008, 03:27:06 pm »
The M79 is one powerful weapon: It kills you instantly on a direct hit. It can boost, kill people beside it, blow up several people with one shot, etc. etc..

It has the most SUCKY arc ever, if you compare it to 1.3.1, it's a huge difference, trust me. It also has the third longest reload of all primary weapons, PLUS it's 1 shell per clip.

You have to be really good if you want to be pro with M79, because it's very hard to shoot a screen-long with it. You must not only have speed and aim the correct angle, but you must make sure you press it off right too. Usually, a lot of people say it's "point-and-click", but it's not that easy.

I personally both love and hate the M79. I love it because of the power and how easy it just floats into the enemies' heads, how the bang hits my ears and allows me to return that flag... It's wonderful.
I also hate it, just because after I miss that shot (damn wall, who put you there?), I have to wait 4 seconds (I'm guessing this is wrong, but whatever), an eternity when you are getting those ruger's bullets shot into your forehead... I hate it when other people use it better than me, throw a small nade in front of them, run past it and boom the ground near it to boost their bodies in the speed of light...

Every weapon needs to be balanced, and the M79 is balanced in this way: You have one, powerful shot. Which gravity loves more than I love strawberries, and which you can shoot as fast as I can do pushups on top speed. It also has a huge chance of blowing yourself up because it already has a big selfhurting percentage. And you must be very good to be able to live 4 seconds between each shot, making sure you are in range of killing your opponent WHILE making sure he hits you as little as possible.

Come on, do you really feel it's necessary to nerf it even more? It's already nerfed to the extent!

In my opinion, there is no need of nerfing this weapon. Compare it with 1.3.1, and you will love it now if you are an anti-M79 player.
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Offline STM1993

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #39 on: March 21, 2008, 09:18:35 pm »
Eew, the M79 is good enough. Like everyone else said:

1. I only have 1 shot, though its explosive and its insta-kill IF it hits directly.
2. I need to reload for 180 ticks = 3 seconds (+6 ticks for fire interval)
3. Movement Acc 3
4. Bink 40. And +15 in 1.5? That'd be 55!
5. Close-ranged due to low bullet speed, arc and slow moving projectile

Easily defeated by:
1. Long Range Combat - Eg: Barret and Ruger
2. Slow projectile ; may be easily dodged
3. Possible self-damage if "kamikazee"
4. 3 seconds reload! Dude, that amount of time is enough for a good gunner to kill him.
5. It's own bink and movement acc. It'd make it even more difficult to aim the M79 if under fire or moving.

Offline Gortaak

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #40 on: March 25, 2008, 08:53:19 am »
Lets say one map was just finished on a ctf server, a new map starts and you're rushing forward with a auto or something, in the middle of the map, u meet a M79 guy, who instant pushes his fire button, and explodes you.
What the hell can you do? There is no wepons who can compite to the M79
Hit the prone key. Thats how you beat an m79 at close range. Everyone does thier little back flip to gain some range on the m79. Every m79er knows this, and predicts accordingly. They all either shoot straight forward, or shoots up. They dont expect you to go prone and dodge under it, then while you are doing this, you shoot thier fakking face off. Out of the last 2 months of me playing (because of coming back from a huge break) I have less deaths to m79s than just about all of the autos. ( I have a stats tracking program) Now this helpfull little trick doesnt work every time, but it works enough times to make it worth it.

Morale of the story: CHANGE YOUR FACKING TACTICS. Every one who whines about this gun, whines about it because they cannot beat it. They whine because they make themselves an easy target. Its not about " LEIK ZOMG DUN RUSH TEH M79 U NAB, DATS WAI U LOZ OLL". You can rush it, just learn to fakking dodge. And yes 8th account, even in gathers, and clan wars, learn to fakking dodge the SLOW MOVING, HUGE, BULLET.

And who the fuck really gets killed by kamakazi's enought to get pissed off by it nowadays anyway? I think ive been kamakazied like 5 times in teh past week.

Just leave the weapon alone. Its a good gun, in the hands of the people that know how to use it. It has strenghs and weaknesses just like any other guy. Learn to adapt and exploit, not whine and nerf. Adapting to guns and situations is what seperates the shat players from the good and fantastic players.

ZOMG NERF, is not the solution to everything.
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Offline Maek|

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #41 on: March 25, 2008, 09:37:41 am »
Gortaak, I love you. I have used m79 often since version that didn't have secondary weapons, and I have some skill with it but its annoying when people call noob when i hit "lucky shots" ass they call it.
Soldat since 1.0.5

Offline √úberschall

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #42 on: March 25, 2008, 10:20:31 am »
- Take away the "granade effect" you miss someone badly, but still kill them because they are at low health, wich isnt possible with any other weapon

Maybe that's because.... it IS a completely different weapon? Why does everyone always want all the weapons to be as equal as possible? If you take the blast radius out, we don't need a grenade launcher at all.
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Offline darkangel

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #43 on: March 25, 2008, 03:27:59 pm »
CLOSED ( THE USER WAS BAN FOR THIS POST)

Date Posted: March 25, 2008, 04:26:45 pm
is easy to fight against m79ers just get use to it
redemption for the redemtion...cause I&#039;I&#039;ma Fallen Angel.
do u have what it take to be a fallen angel??

Offline 8th_account

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #44 on: March 25, 2008, 08:37:29 pm »
Hit the prone key.
...
And yes 8th account, even in gathers, and clan wars, learn to fakking dodge the SLOW MOVING, HUGE, BULLET.

The world of Soldat isn't only black and white. A miniscule amount of the kills due to the M79, at least in clanwars, are in either the category "long range" or "kamikaze." It's the greyscale that racks up the kills and annoys. In this range an M79 shell cannot easily be dodged on-the-fly. You can however deliberately provoke and feint people into missing, assuming you know where they are, and have a usable directional momentum to act accordingly, considering the map layout and the enemy's own directional momentum. For this to be to your favour as often as possible, you have to sacrifice pace. A sacrifice that shouldn't have to be made in a fast-paced game just because the enemy may or may not be carrying an M79. A sacrifice only RS and trenchwar losers are willing to do.

Offline √úberschall

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2008, 09:01:45 pm »
You're saying that as if you'd lose all the momentum forever once you encounter an M79 which clearly isn't the case.
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Offline Gortaak

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2008, 11:09:09 pm »
Hit the prone key.
...
And yes 8th account, even in gathers, and clan wars, learn to fakking dodge the SLOW MOVING, HUGE, BULLET.

The world of Soldat isn't only black and white. A miniscule amount of the kills due to the M79, at least in clanwars, are in either the category "long range" or "kamikaze." It's the greyscale that racks up the kills and annoys. In this range an M79 shell cannot easily be dodged on-the-fly. You can however deliberately provoke and feint people into missing, assuming you know where they are, and have a usable directional momentum to act accordingly, considering the map layout and the enemy's own directional momentum. For this to be to your favour as often as possible, you have to sacrifice pace. A sacrifice that shouldn't have to be made in a fast-paced game just because the enemy may or may not be carrying an M79. A sacrifice only RS and trenchwar losers are willing to do.


Hitting the prone key still works in that "grayscale" area. It works in the air. It ESPICALLY works well when you are rushing the m79, as they are going to shoot forward and you are going to fly under it. Seriously just give it a shot a few times. Its like the same way you dodge the barrett. But like I said, it doesnt ALWAYS work. But works enough so that its a better idea to use. It doesnt make them miss every time. And certainly not when you JUST respawn. But it saves you enough times to make it worth it.

I also agree with you in "tricking" them to take the shot. Also just dead stopping in place on certain maps works well too. Take Nuubia for example: You are grabbing red flag, either up or low, and the m79er is up or low (opposite of where you are). You keep moving at a constant pace, untill the edge where it opens untill mid. If you stop, RIGHT there, the m79 will miss you.

But the entire point of my posts, are to say that the m79 doesnt need to be nerfed. Its not as difficult as most of the noobs that scream nerf think it is.

And of course, there are the people that are just amazing with it, and hit you no matter WHAT you do. But does that mean it needs to get nerfed? In that case, nerf everything. Actually, take all the guns out of soldat, and make everyone hug each other. That would be fair and ballanced right?

And before you say Im defending it because thats all I use. I use the AK, Steyr, Mp5 and Spas, more than I use the m79.

And Im sorry if my post came off as me trying to flame or be an ass. Im not. Apologies in advance.

:)
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Offline 8th_account

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2008, 06:57:17 am »
Only dodging isn't good for much. Most decent clanners combine it with worming and jetting up and down to get the most out of it. But even so, it's only useful for a handful of the times and will only work in specific situations.

Even if it worked, you saying that it does won't prevent it from being overused in pubs and sctfl.

Offline √úberschall

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2008, 07:39:24 am »
FFS. The M79 is a different weapon. You're always phrasing your arguments as though the M79 shouldn't get any kills at all.
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Offline ViN

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #49 on: March 26, 2008, 07:40:15 am »
This is where climbing helps alot, easiest way to avoid a M79 bullet is to have high speed, and do a latebackflip just after they shoot.
Almost all of the people who whine about m79 being overpowered, are simply noobs, or total idiots, who are rushing into an m79'er.

Geekier than you!

Offline 8th_account

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2008, 08:00:51 am »
FFS. The M79 is a different weapon. You're always phrasing your arguments as though the M79 shouldn't get any kills at all.
They're various counter-arguments against Gortaak's claims that M79 doesn't need a tweak because you can dodge.

And how should we teach every new player to dodge then? Accomplishing this task would surely decrease M79 usage. Maybe if we all hold hands and wish real hard it'd come true.

Offline poopdogg

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2008, 08:02:02 am »
FFS. The M79 is a different weapon. You're always phrasing your arguments as though the M79 shouldn't get any kills at all.
They're various counter-arguments against Gortaak's claims that M79 doesn't need a tweak because you can dodge.

And how should we teach every new player to dodge then? Accomplishing this task would surely decrease M79 usage. Maybe if we all hold hands and wish real hard it'd come true.
lets hold hands ;D weeeeeeeeeeeeeee

(Sorry if I am unintelligent, since the knowledge I have only comes from a school text book...)

Offline √úberschall

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2008, 08:07:41 am »
Why "teaching"? If you're good enough, you can dodge shots from a little distance. Maybe you can't dodge the close range ones then. Well okay, you can't dodge a short range shot with the spas either because it's too strong at that and that's it's effective range. The M79 is made to own you at middle/short range so why decrease it even in that range?
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Offline Gortaak

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2008, 09:26:12 am »
No, but seriously. Why nerf it? Why is it, that you nerf every single gun? Its not over powered ffs.  Havent you heard the phrase "dont fix it if it aint broke"? Say you do smash this thing with the nerf ANVIL, and no one uses it. There will be another gun that every single noob will flock too. Then you will destroy that with the nerf stick, and so on, and so forth, untill there is NOTHING LEFT. All this fucking nerfing is going ot ruin this fakking game. Everyone is always going to whine/cry/bitch about the gun that ownes them the most.

If you wanna talk about overpowered, look at the damn ruger. Anyone with atleast decent aim can drop you in 2 shots before you can kill them. Unless you rett or worm the shit outta a ruger. If you are an auto user you are just fucked. But you know what? Just because it takes about a week of practice to use it good, you wont nerf it. You probably will add MORE damage to it.

Look at the m79 in comparason to the other guns that surround it. It get one shot, that moves slow, hardly registers when you need it to, 3 seconds to reload it after every shot, and horrible range unless you know what you are doing with it. And you are talking about "Tweaking" it? YEAH OK. Since when does the beta team tweak anything that is "overpowered"? They just smash it with their nerf cannons, and ruin it.

And who really care if noobs flock to one gun? So what its easy for them, thats how they get into the game. If you make EVERY gun super fucking hard to kill with, then there wont be very many new people. Games need easy guns for new people, so they have fun, and keep playing the game. Eventually they will get bored and experiment with other guns, and then the problem is solved. And before you all say, WELL OMG THEY KILLD ME IN TEH ONE SHOT, HOW IZ IT FUN FOAR ME? LIEK NOT FARE! Well, look at it this way, you all have one year + on any noob that joins this game. How is it fun or fair for them, when they can barely get 1 shot off at you, before you rape their face off? Soldat thrives on new player, and needs a steady influx of them to keep this game going. Let them have one fucking gun that they can have fun with to get addicted to this game.

And as for :
Quote
Only dodging isn't good for much. Most decent clanners combine it with worming and jetting up and down to get the most out of it. But even so, it's only useful for a handful of the times and will only work in specific situations.

Have you ever tried to do it? Seriously? Saying that it only works in specific situations is completely wrong. It works in 90% of situations. Here, I will go into a pub filled with these guns, make a demo of me dodging 90% of shots, with this tactic, and show you how its done. Ill also make a demo of it in a gather, or an sctfl match when it starts (or any other league match for that matter). Just because a gun kicks the shit outta people that are too lazy to try not to get hit by it, doesnt mean you should just jump on the bandwagon and nerf it untill extinction.

And over used? What about grenades? Those are the MOST USED weapon, EVER.  They can kill in one shot, or damn close to it most times. Look on EVERY server that has stats enabled, and the top killer WILL be nades. Why dont we just get rid of them? People kamakazi with those, nade  spam your base, and you can drop all 3 of them in a blink of an eye into an enemies face, you can boost off of them/ with them. Anything that you can whine about with the m79, can apply to grenades, execpt grenades are more plentiful.
And here to even bring in your old lists to PROVE my point:

Liek omg 20 THOUSAND more kills than m79? OH GEEZE!
Quote
Semi-pro gather
  [Grenade] => 52255 <----
    [M79] => 32812 <---
   
What is this? 6 THOUSAND more than m79?
Quote
Pro gather before the 1.5 WM was used... 2nd most used primary, almost trice as many kills as barret...
Array
(
    [Grenade] => 17697 <---
    [Desert Eagles] => 14699
    [M79] => 11694 <---
   
Oh and sctfl 10, and m79 has  1/3 as many kills as nades, and 1/2 as many as steyr and ak? Less kills than the knife? Wow, not much whoring if you ask me.
Quote
sctfl10 server... 4th most used primary, twice as many kills as barret... still pretty bad.
Array
(
    [Grenade] => 34795   <---
    [Steyr AUG] => 28495
    [Ak-74] => 25724
    [Ruger 77] => 17458
    [Combat Knife] => 13473
    [M79] => 13077 <---


So, by your reasoning, we should nerf nades too, because they are the most over used weapon in the game. Remember, anything that a m79 can do so can nades, with a bit less range.
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Offline Ziem

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2008, 12:22:11 pm »
Gortaak - ...
If you wanna talk about overpowered, look at the damn ruger. Anyone with atleast decent aim can drop you in 2 shots before you can kill them. Unless you rett or worm the bollocks outta a ruger. If you are an auto user you are just fecked. But you know what? Just because it takes about a week of practice to use it good, you wont nerf it. You probably will add MORE damage to it.
Nah... Ruger sometimes (I'd say, against experienced player, 60%?..) can't really kill in 2 shots. And it take a *bit* more time to be good with it, than just a week.

And with m79?... I don't whine about it, but it's so damn overused that it deserves for a nerf (like +15 bink // 1.5/gath ftw.)

So, by your reasoning, we should nerf nades too, because they are the most over used weapon in
?
Everyone has nades = everyone can use it = they are balanced.


Btw. Do you know who the hell is Skoskav? ;E ...

I agree with that M79 is overused for *some reason*...

Offline √úberschall

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2008, 12:29:07 pm »
And with m79?... I don't whine about it, but it's so damn overused that it deserves for a nerf (like +15 bink // 1.5/gath ftw.)

No. Why would you nerf a weapon just because of that? Then, newbies will grab a different weapon and that becomes overused and you'll want to nerf that, too, right?
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Offline 8th_account

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2008, 12:39:15 pm »
No, but seriously. Why nerf it? Why is it, that you nerf every single gun? Its not over powered ffs.  Havent you heard the phrase "dont fix it if it aint broke"? Say you do smash this thing with the nerf ANVIL, and no one uses it. There will be another gun that every single noob will flock too. Then you will destroy that with the nerf stick, and so on, and so forth, untill there is NOTHING LEFT. All this fecking nerfing is going ot ruin this fakking game. Everyone is always going to whine/cry/twat about the gun that ownes them the most.
1) It's getting nerfed because it's exceedingly overused.
2) That phrase does often apply. Too bad that the M79 is relatively "broke." It's an overwhealmingly popular weapon for offensive close-mid range combat.
3) Nerfs aren't as common anymore as you think they are. Perhaps you're still upset about the changes from 1.2.1 --> 1.3 --> 1.3.1? Behold the changelogs for the WMs I were responsible for:
http://nopaste.biz/38597 1.3.1 --> 1.4
http://nopaste.biz/38598 1.4.1 --> 1.4.2
http://nopaste.biz/38599 current 1.5 draft

Quote
If you wanna talk about overpowered, look at the damn ruger. Anyone with atleast decent aim can drop you in 2 shots before you can kill them. Unless you rett or worm the bollocks outta a ruger. If you are an auto user you are just fecked. But you know what? Just because it takes about a week of practice to use it good, you wont nerf it. You probably will add MORE damage to it.
Do some reasearch / Play some gathers / Look at WM above.

Quote
Look at the m79 in comparason to the other guns that surround it. It get one shot, that moves slow, hardly registers when you need it to, 3 seconds to reload it after every shot, and horrible range unless you know what you are doing with it. And you are talking about "Tweaking" it? YEAH OK. Since when does the beta team tweak anything that is "overpowered"? They just smash it with their nerf cannons, and ruin it.
1) The bullet doesn't always move "slowly." When rushing (which is when the M79 is the most overwhealming for the other players), the shell's muzzle velocity could be as high as 160, and theoretically even higher. That means a speed between spas' and socom's normal muzzle velocity.
2) Poor hit registration isn't a reason to make a gun stronger. All guns are affected by it.

Quote
And who really care if noobs flock to one gun? So what its easy for them, thats how they get into the game. If you make EVERY gun super fecking hard to kill with, then there wont be very many new people. Games need easy guns for new people, so they have fun, and keep playing the game. Eventually they will get bored and experiment with other guns, and then the problem is solved. And before you all say, WELL OMG THEY KILLD ME IN TEH ONE SHOT, HOW IZ IT FUN FOAR ME? LIEK NOT FARE! Well, look at it this way, you all have one year + on any noob that joins this game. How is it fun or fair for them, when they can barely get 1 shot off at you, before you rape their face off? Soldat thrives on new player, and needs a steady influx of them to keep this game going. Let them have one fecking gun that they can have fun with to get addicted to this game.
One starter weapon? Don't be so negative. I'm aiming for ten. Wouldn't that be more fun and dynamic?

Quote
And as for :
Quote
Only dodging isn't good for much. Most decent clanners combine it with worming and jetting up and down to get the most out of it. But even so, it's only useful for a handful of the times and will only work in specific situations.

Have you ever tried to do it? Seriously? Saying that it only works in specific situations is completely wrong. It works in 90% of situations. Here, I will go into a pub filled with these guns, make a demo of me dodging 90% of shots, with this tactic, and show you how its done. Ill also make a demo of it in a gather, or an sctfl match when it starts (or any other league match for that matter). Just because a gun kicks the bollocks outta people that are too lazy to try not to get hit by it, doesnt mean you should just jump on the bandwagon and nerf it untill extinction.
With "decent claners" I ment gather+ or above actually. But yeah, do some pubs as well. gl hf with that.

Quote
And over used? What about grenades? Those are the MOST USED weapon, EVER.  They can kill in one shot, or damn close to it most times. Look on EVERY server that has stats enabled, and the top killer WILL be nades. Why dont we just get rid of them? People kamakazi with those, nade  spam your base, and you can drop all 3 of them in a blink of an eye into an enemies face, you can boost off of them/ with them. Anything that you can whine about with the m79, can apply to grenades, execpt grenades are more plentiful.
And here to even bring in your old lists to PROVE my point:

Liek omg 20 THOUSAND more kills than m79? OH GEEZE!
Quote
snip


So, by your reasoning, we should nerf nades too, because they are the most over used weapon in the game. Remember, anything that a m79 can do so can nades, with a bit less range.
Everyone carry around nades. It's not at all a primary weapon. Technically it's a tertiary.

Offline √úberschall

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2008, 01:39:13 pm »
If you want ten starter weapons, we don't need weapons at all. The M79 is used by beginners because it's easys to have first success with it and nothing more if you're not really good. That would mean if you want ten starter weapons, screw all weapons and only leave the AK left or whatever.
There's no point in nerfing a gun because many newcomers use it. And yet again, you make it sound as if you were of the opinion that the M79 should be nerfed just because it kills. You would never get the idea to talk about dodging the AK-74. Or the AUG. Nobody goes on there and says "You can't dodge it's bullets, nerf it!". Yes, the M79 can kill you if shot at you, just like every weapon. And I don't know how much further you want to nerf it to shy newbies away from it. It is, afterall, a grenade launcher and that also attracted me when I first started playing because it kills in one hit, afterall. Bink or whatever, a newbie doesn't care, he most likely doesn't even know what bink is. He just sees that if he hits someone, he kills. Or even several people. So the only reasonable nerf would be taking away the one hit kill ;).
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Offline Gortaak

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2008, 01:45:28 pm »
I play gathers and clan wars every day, more so than pubs, and I seriously never have any fakking trouble against the m79, execpt the second I spawn and I get sploded, but that doesnt matter. And I do play against good players as well.

As for the pub comments, YOU are the one that brought up the comment about a pub filled with them. So my response was to show you, it doesnt matter, you can still dodge it.  And making a demo of dodging them in gathers was to prove that you can dodge it and still rush.


As for the Nade comment, You were the one bringing up stats comparing it to other weapons and how many kills it got. Everyone has nades, sure, but everyone can have a fecking m79 as well. Your points are completely mute.

As for your ruger comment. You go play some gathers, and YOU do some research. The ruger is a 2 shot gun, anyone with decent aim can pop you off in 2 shots, and hell, they got 4 of them, so if they miss thier 1st shot, they can still drop you pretty fast. Espically on Laos. All they gotta do is stay at range, or even rush you. It doesnt matter. But I dont care, keep it the way it is.


But I DO agree with all 10 being easily accessable to all players. More diversity would be nice. And best of luck to it. But it will NEVER happen.

Oh and ubershall, I completely agree with you, execpt taking away the 1 hit kill, that would ruin it compeltely.

But bleh, none of this will sink in anyways, so its like arguing with a wall. :/
« Last Edit: March 26, 2008, 01:47:23 pm by Gortaak »
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Offline √úberschall

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2008, 02:11:41 pm »
The one hit kill thing was just to show that there's no way to nerf the M79 in order to decrease it's popularity amongst newbies. I wasn't serious.
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Offline Ziem

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2008, 03:03:20 pm »
But bleh, none of this will sink in anyways, so its like arguing with a wall. :/
And vice-versa, I'd say...

Offline 8th_account

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #61 on: March 26, 2008, 05:08:50 pm »
Gortaak, nades have little to nothing to do with with how the primaries are balanced to eachother. And desipte what primary you choose, you'll always have nades. Naturally they're going to be used a lot and be responsible for plenty of deaths.

Apparently you haven't played gathers nor done research, because in the 1.5 WM ruger is a lot closer to 50/50 between 2-hit and 3-hit kills.


Also, you two lack Imagination. Of course M79's popularity can be cut without making the gun crap. Ever tried pre-1.2 versions? They had a good "design flaw" that prevented M79 from being rush friendly. Every weapon can be balanced.

Offline The Philanthropist

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #62 on: March 26, 2008, 06:27:59 pm »


Offtopic: I have a quick question mainly because balance boy is posting in this topic. What weapon are you comparing the m79 to on how to much to nerf it? Whats your base, perfectly balanced weapon? Or are you kind of shifting everything around all at once?

Offline 8th_account

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #63 on: March 27, 2008, 04:56:23 am »
There's no "guide line weapon" which to compare the others with. The weapons in general was decided to be buffed a tiny amount, while bringing their strenghts, usability and usage closer to eachother. But the primary that was changed the least was the Ak. So you could almost say that the 1.4.2 Ak is the other weapons' role model for this version.

Offline Xxypher

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2008, 05:25:09 pm »
F11.
One of my favorite weapons.

Offline Ralphy

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #65 on: April 04, 2008, 01:35:54 am »
It's to Damn easy to kill someone with a ruger. But noone cries about it.
Seriously, The only noobs are the ones complaining that it's a stupid noobish weapon

f11, Fav Wep

Offline Eclipse

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2008, 04:07:25 am »
[sarcasm] Lets let the HK shoot arrows and the barret shoot LAWs. OOh And lets have the M79 shoot grenades as its a grenade launcher [/sarcasm]

Like all 1 hit kill weapons, it has a downside.

F11
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Offline M.rSnow

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Re: Solutions to decrease the M79
« Reply #67 on: April 05, 2008, 06:43:14 am »
This would turn the m79 into a poo shooter. "Take away the explosion effect". Its a Granade propeller. If it dosn't have the boom its a poo shooter.
Lapis: You need a vacation or a bullet though the head both works just fine by me.