Grenades - Need to be nerfed

[excruciator]

Who is we? Make it a poll and then we'll see.

I don't think it's a problem.

We is me and everyone that wants to nerf the nade. We is the people in weapon balance discussion, we solve problems from "core".

Newcomer eh? Better read the sticky and section rules.

[mxyzptlk]

Excrutiator, you're still on this? I thought we all agreed that the nade didn't need nerfed. It's only ever an instakill if it hits the feet, and if it isn't, it knocks the person back to have a chance to recover.

[excruciator]

Excrutiator, you're still on this? I thought we all agreed that the nade didn't need nerfed. It's only ever an instakill if it hits the feet, and if it isn't, it knocks the person back to have a chance to recover.

My view to nerf thy nade is stronger than ever.

Instakill - Way too good! Only what? Only this good?
Knockback - Also very good, completely messes up the other guy's aim, the delta damage would be over 50%, which is nearly impossible win unless the other guy is suddenly struck by a stroke.

[Platehead]

The grenade isn't much of a main weapon - it's not always possible to get a nade pack - and unlike guns, you cannot reload it without getting the nade packs.  So once they're spent, you either sniff around for more or resort to gunning.  In that, it is quite a bit of a sidearm.  Besides, it's not like the nade was a weapon to choose or something - everyone gets one at startup, and can continue refilling.

By the way, for your reply to my previous post, I have yet to see a good CTF server or gather that allows flamer

[jerich]

Excrutiator, you're still on this? I thought we all agreed that the nade didn't need nerfed. It's only ever an instakill if it hits the feet, and if it isn't, it knocks the person back to have a chance to recover.

My view to nerf thy nade is stronger than ever.

Instakill - Way too good! Only what? Only this good?
Knockback - Also very good, completely messes up the other guy's aim, the delta damage would be over 50%, which is nearly impossible win unless the other guy is suddenly struck by a stroke.

If I'm not mistaken the grenade should kill in one hit anyways(it's a freckin grenade) and grenades should knockback people if they are in the vicinity of the blow up range.

And about soldat being changed...from my experience, the previous soldat versions were more fun. Of course, I did get used to the new versions and I do still like it, but not as much as I did back then. So slowing gameplay with the nerfing of grenades probably won't do any good for me at least(and a lot others).

We is me and everyone that wants to nerf the nade. We is the people in weapon balance discussion, we solve problems from "core".

Newcomer eh? Better read the sticky and section rules.

So far I only see you and Extacide, and I don't really care to check the previous pages to who else. But, as far as I can see, the majority lies against this idea. Also, the weapon balance discussion is not a place were we solve. We challange/debate issues at hand and the makers have the final say. And even with the fixes, that doesn't mean we solved all the problems. That is why we discuss here, otherwise this would be called the weapon balance solutions thread. Lt KillRoy is obviously not a newcomer, he's just challenging you to show that the majority is against the idea which I don't see a problem with.

[Ziem]

Without nades (or with nerfed nades, whatever..) Soldat would be even more defensive - so no. I also don't wanna see even more rugers.

[STM1993]

Grenades have been some of the key elements of Soldat. The grenade has been a powerful support weapon.

- Knocks back enemies
- Does heavy explosive damage
- Kills in 1-hit if it hits the legs (unless there's a vest)
- Can be thrown at different trajectories/speeds
- Tactical uses such as using it as a land mine
- Can be used to boost yourself or aid in boosting

Grenades are very powerful, but limited in the number of grenades allowed to be carried, and usually a server does not allow more than 3. Any user without a grenade is at a major disadvantage.

Without nades, everyone's gonna rely purely on guns. And with that, like what Ziem said, everyone's gonna be more defensive. We'll see more long-ranged guns rather than short-ranged ones. And actually, short-ranged guns aren't very popular as compared to the long ranged ones. Think: DEs, MP5, Spas-12, M79 vs AK-74, Steyr Aug, Ruger 77, Barrett, FN Minimi.

And after that, without nades, they lose their 1-hit kill ability. What do they turn to? More M79s and more Knives. There goes the balance. Plus, the gameplay becomes slower again.

Grenades have not changed ever since a certain version. I guess the grenades should be left as they are. Besides, we're slowly gonna re-buff all the weapons in Soldat in future when the balance is complete. If we must really nerf the grenades, the most is just a minor damage reduction and make a slight increase in self-damage.

[Platehead]

Yeah maybe self damage would be an appropriate buff
The point of underuse of short ranged guns is very good... and as STM1993 said, there will be more M79s, i.e. more whiners.  Not needed.

[offtopic]
Lol today I was trying to kamikaze without using the M79... it's heaps fun, (only works when they hover close to you)... lay three nades, then step on them and walah!!!!! hope they get caught in the explosion
[/offtopic]

[blackdevil0742]

I don't think the nades are too powerful, however, it's the servers that need to realise that giving the players nades at spawn is a bad thing. On my server(I see grenades as bonuses) I only allow one nade and because of that the players don't start off with one and it also reduces nade spam.

[SDFilm]

Nade spamming itself isn't so bad, it just becomes a problem when the nade packs spawn so fast that throwing all your nades away doesn't matter since you can easily get more.

[STM1993]

Too bad there isn't an option to set how many nades are available upon spawn, rather than always being 1/2 (rounded down) on the maximum number of nades that can be carried.

[excruciator]

The grenade isn't much of a main weapon - it's not always possible to get a nade pack - and unlike guns, you cannot reload it without getting the nade packs.  So once they're spent, you either sniff around for more or resort to gunning.  In that, it is quite a bit of a sidearm.  Besides, it's not like the nade was a weapon to choose or something - everyone gets one at startup, and can continue refilling.

By the way, for your reply to my previous post, I have yet to see a good CTF server or gather that allows flamer

Think of nade packs as a reload.
Then the weapon would be much more powerful than a main. eventhough you have to go to the base to reload. + the fact that it insta reloads would potencially balance out the problem.

Date Posted: October 01, 2008, 11:49:23 am

Excrutiator, you're still on this? I thought we all agreed that the nade didn't need nerfed. It's only ever an instakill if it hits the feet, and if it isn't, it knocks the person back to have a chance to recover.

My view to nerf thy nade is stronger than ever.

Instakill - Way too good! Only what? Only this good?
Knockback - Also very good, completely messes up the other guy's aim, the delta damage would be over 50%, which is nearly impossible win unless the other guy is suddenly struck by a stroke.

If I'm not mistaken the grenade should kill in one hit anyways(it's a freckin grenade) and grenades should knockback people if they are in the vicinity of the blow up range.

And about soldat being changed...from my experience, the previous soldat versions were more fun. Of course, I did get used to the new versions and I do still like it, but not as much as I did back then. So slowing gameplay with the nerfing of grenades probably won't do any good for me at least(and a lot others).

We is me and everyone that wants to nerf the nade. We is the people in weapon balance discussion, we solve problems from "core".

Newcomer eh? Better read the sticky and section rules.

So far I only see you and Extacide, and I don't really care to check the previous pages to who else. But, as far as I can see, the majority lies against this idea. Also, the weapon balance discussion is not a place were we solve. We challange/debate issues at hand and the makers have the final say. And even with the fixes, that doesn't mean we solved all the problems. That is why we discuss here, otherwise this would be called the weapon balance solutions thread. Lt KillRoy is obviously not a newcomer, he's just challenging you to show that the majority is against the idea which I don't see a problem with.

And if I am not mistaken, granade should not explode on contact, its a freaking granade.

The previous version were of course more fun. Mp5 dealt more damage and ak had a real niche. No weapon completely dominates the battlefield. The gun dealt more damage therefore they mattered more. Naturally, people rely on nades when the gun gets sucky. And thats been the overall trend for the past couple versions.

If you think stronger gun would spoil the gameplay? then perhaps you should turn to realistics.

Date Posted: October 01, 2008, 11:56:54 amSTM, you are right. All players, no matter what weapon they use, they all trys to achieve the potencial of one hitters. Thats the trend. So in term of importance and main uses, there are only 4 weapons. M79, ret, knife and nade. Thats the essence of completitive soldat. All other weapons are just support for these 4 weapons.

And if you REALLY wanna go into it, then it's mostly two weapons, nade and knife. as they offer high damage, maintain highest damage overtime, shortest potencial reload, high firing rate in comparison for their damage.

Way to call this balanced eh?
(if it was, then really, this would not happen)

[miketh2005]

I wonder why none of the admins have replied here yet...

[jerich]

And if I am not mistaken, granade should not explode on contact, its a freaking granade.

The previous version were of course more fun. Mp5 dealt more damage and ak had a real niche. No weapon completely dominates the battlefield. The gun dealt more damage therefore they mattered more. Naturally, people rely on nades when the gun gets sucky. And thats been the overall trend for the past couple versions.

If you think stronger gun would spoil the gameplay? then perhaps you should turn to realistics.

I can give you credit for the grenade on impact, although I do think there are grenades that are designed that way. But when did I ever write about a stronger guns spoiling gameplay? Please don't put words in my mouth that I haven't said. And I actually do play R/S on occasion, even though I'm more known as a normal CTF player.

STM, you are right. All players, no matter what weapon they use, they all trys to achieve the potencial of one hitters. Thats the trend. So in term of importance and main uses, there are only 4 weapons. M79, ret, knife and nade. Thats the essence of completitive soldat. All other weapons are just support for these 4 weapons.

And if you REALLY wanna go into it, then it's mostly two weapons, nade and knife. as they offer high damage, maintain highest damage overtime, shortest potencial reload, high firing rate in comparison for their damage.

Way to call this balanced eh?
(if it was, then really, this would not happen)

If that's the essence to completitive(complete? or competitive?) soldat, then you gotta show me the league's that you've played in. I see soo many autos and the least amount of 1 hitter's in leagues. In terms of importance, I actually think autos are much more important than 1 hitter's even if I love using the rett and m79. And implying that the knife and grenades are the most important? I rather have a primary that I know that can reload than 3 grenades and a knife rushing into a base. The important weapon is you MAIN aka your PRIMARY weapon, grenades and secondaries COMPLIMENT the primary. Although grenades can be spammed, there's a limited number and there's its downside. Just because the grenade is useful is spamming, it's definitely not the most reliable in other situations. And if the player can easily restock, as I for like the forth time, blame the map's nade spawns.

Way to call this balanced eh?
(if it was, then really, this would not happen)

Disregarding anything you just said about the importance of 1-hitters, as I totally disagree with that whole last part, I'd say it's fairly balanced. That's why the grenade has been one of the least changed aspects of the game. And what are you talking about saying this wouldn't happen? This thread? Well, your persistent on saying basically the same thing every post keeping this ongoing. Otherwise, this thread would have been long dead.


 

[excruciator]

STM, you are right. All players, no matter what weapon they use, they all trys to achieve the potencial of one hitters. Thats the trend. So in term of importance and main uses, there are only 4 weapons. M79, ret, knife and nade. Thats the essence of completitive soldat. All other weapons are just support for these 4 weapons.

And if you REALLY wanna go into it, then it's mostly two weapons, nade and knife. as they offer high damage, maintain highest damage overtime, shortest potencial reload, high firing rate in comparison for their damage.

Way to call this balanced eh?
(if it was, then really, this would not happen)

If that's the essence to completitive(complete? or competitive?) soldat, then you gotta show me the league's that you've played in. I see soo many autos and the least amount of 1 hitter's in leagues. In terms of importance, I actually think autos are much more important than 1 hitter's even if I love using the rett and m79. And implying that the knife and grenades are the most important? I rather have a primary that I know that can reload than 3 grenades and a knife rushing into a base. The important weapon is you MAIN aka your PRIMARY weapon, grenades and secondaries COMPLIMENT the primary. Although grenades can be spammed, there's a limited number and there's its downside. Just because the grenade is useful is spamming, it's definitely not the most reliable in other situations. And if the player can easily restock, as I for like the forth time, blame the map's nade spawns.

I don't play leagues, but I did play enough gathers to know this trend.
Sure there are a lot of auto's out there, but primary isn't defined by how many of them there are, it's defined by its ability. Primary kills better than secondaries. That is the rule.

Every NAVY seal has a back up pistol and different mains; that doesn't mean pistol is their main does it?

You mentioned that you would rather rush into a base with a prime than three nades and a knife, well, that might be true, but you WOULD NOT rush into a base without both of them.
And that still shows the dependency on the granades.

You mentioned that nades complement the main, well, main is defined by its ability to kill. If nades kills faster than gun, wouldn't the gun be complementing the nade?

Clearly you should understand the definition of a primary before slapping the primary label on weapon #0-9.

IF numbers are the downside and that downside is a true drawback to granades, clearly we could not find a way to kill a lot of people with it. The fact is players found a way around it, and they kill as efficiently as ever, therefore,there is no real drawback to granades.

I dont blame the map.
I blame nades because...

we solve problems from its core.

we would like to, at least.

EDIT:
I keep saying the same thing because apparently people don't understand my points well enough and they would keep asking questions that could be countered by the same post over and over again. Throw me something new and I will in exchange throw something new back at you. FYI, this point of yours, its not original either.

[jerich]

I don't play leagues, but I did play enough gathers to know this trend.
Sure there are a lot of auto's out there, but primary isn't defined by how many of them there are, it's defined by its ability. Primary kills better than secondaries. That is the rule.

Gathers and league play are to totally different levels. Gathers are not competitive even if it has more skilled players. And what point are you trying to make here. You argue how 1 hitters are more important than autos and semis. Then you take a U-turn. Obviously, primaries should kill faster than secondaries. And that's why secondaries and grenades compliment the main.

Every NAVY seal has a back up pistol and different mains; that doesn't mean pistol is their main does it?

The pistol isn't a main, it BACKS UP the main, but what point are you trying to make with this? There is not even a comparison with grenades?

You mentioned that you would rather rush into a base with a prime than three nades and a knife, well, that might be true, but you WOULD NOT rush into a base without both of them.
And that still shows the dependency on the granades.

Why wouldn't I? Yes, I rather have them, but I can do without. Conversely, I WOULD NEVER run into a base without a primary. That is why primaries are more dependent on and grenades/secondaries compliment the primary.

You mentioned that nades complement the main, well, main is defined by its ability to kill. If nades kills faster than gun, wouldn't the gun be complementing the nade?

Um...in terms of killing, only in very limited situations does the grenade kill faster than a gun. A gun has more dimensions to kill with it's range, ammo, ricochet, reload, spray, etc. Grenades have very limited range, and is effective with spamming and close range(under the feet) killing.

IF numbers are the downside and that downside is a true drawback to granades, clearly we could not find a way to kill a lot of people with it. The fact is players found a way around it, and they kill as efficiently as ever, therefore,there is no real drawback to granades.

The way around it? By finding that people can easily restock the grenades because of badly placed nade spawning. Or they found out that some people are idiotic enough to rush right into their grenades?

EDIT:
I keep saying the same thing because apparently people don't understand my points well enough and they would keep asking questions that could be countered by the same post over and over again. Throw me something new and I will in exchange throw something new back at you. FYI, this point of yours, its not original either.

I totally understand your points and I think most of it is valid. However, although some of my points are not original, I believe I make stronger points to counter your points and that is why the majority of the soldat populus would go against this idea.

[excruciator]

When I say people have no clue what I am talking about, you could be one of those people.

I said all players try to assimilate their killing style closest to what a one hitter does. In other words, highest DPS possible. and auto + nade combo achieves that quite efficiently. I never said one hitter are the only ones worth using. I wrote one hitter because they ARE the closest one to the "essence" of killing. Which is One hit KO. Not that they are better.

You said primes kills faster than nades...well, they dont. Nades can kill the same if not better as only two main has the KO ability, while nade possess the intrinsic ability to do so. Nade also has the highest firing rate for a weapon that could do instakill.

GJ on getting that one right. Yes pistol is not a main, yes it is a back up. This analogy is used to prove that your point is wrong, that nade is limited therefore its not a primary. Well, the primary is not defined by the number.(look at pistols)

The whole point of with or without nade is to prove that if you were given the choice, you would go for the nades.
+ if I remembered right, freeze+ played an entire gather just with nades and he raped everyone, again he would rather have 3 nades but without a gun than to rush without nades. It's all bout personal preferences.

Perhaps the situations are limited (such as nade from under, and rushing, two out of 100s of possible situations), but if these situations appears often, then I don't think they are limited. Point dismissed.

If the number are a downside, then the nade would not be on the #1 killer of sna. As the drawback is there. However, people learned to not spam nade, therefore conserving their nade reservoir, therefore making # of nades less problematic. If thats so, is there still a drawback?

[jerich]

I said all players try to assimilate their killing style closest to what a one hitter does. In other words, highest DPS possible. and auto + nade combo achieves that quite efficiently. I never said one hitter are the only ones worth using. I wrote one hitter because they ARE the closest one to the "essence" of killing. Which is One hit KO. Not that they are better.

Ok, now that you have made that clear(because your other statement regarding STM was absolutely retarded, no offense), how does that apply with your effort to nerf nades?

You said primes kills faster than nades...well, they dont. Nades can kill the same if not better as only two main has the KO ability, while nade possess the intrinsic ability to do so. Nade also has the highest firing rate of instant kills for a weapon that could do instakill.

Sorry, I meant that primaries have more advantages to kill over grenades. Again, this is a situational issue. Depending on situation, one has the greater advantage over the other. Most of the time, the primary will have the advantage due to range abilities. Rightfully so, the grenade shouldn't have more advantages than primaries. Just because it has the highest firing rate, it is only applicate in the short range. I'd say that's fairly balanced.

GJ on getting that one right. Yes pistol is not a main, yes it is a back up. This analogy is used to prove that your point is wrong, that nade is limited therefore its not a primary. Well, the primary is not defined by the number.(look at pistols)

Uhhh, I never said the grenade was a primary. Haven't I said like 10 times that grenades and secondaries compliment the primary. If anything, your proving yourself wrong saying that it isn't a primary, even though you keep argueing that the grenade is much stronger than primaries.

The whole point of with or without nade is to prove that if you were given the choice, you would go for the nades.

No duh. No one is that retarded. Anyone would add another dimension to their offensive capabilities if they were given the choice. I could say the same thing. If you were given a chouce to play with or without a primary, you would go for the primary.

Perhaps the situations are limited (such as nade from under, and rushing, two out of 100s of possible situations), but if these situations appears often, then I don't think they are limited. Point dismissed.

That's IF...Point dismissed.

If the number are a downside, then the nade would not be on the #1 killer of sna. As the drawback is there. However, people learned to not spam nade, therefore conserving their nade reservoir, therefore making # of nades less problematic. If thats so, is there still a drawback?

OF COURSE the nade is the #1 killer of soldat. Everyone starts with it. You don't even have a choice whether or not to have it so people might as well use it. Statistics are skewed just because of that. The other weapons you can freely choose your primary and secondary.  Um, your sentence that starts with However is a run-on and I really don't understand it, but I'll try to reply anyways. Whether or not people decide to conserve it, they will use it eventually. You can't stop someone spamming grenades. Players will use every resource in their dispense. And there will always be pros and cons(drawbacks) of grenades and every weapon. That is why there is a balance(a fair one at that).

Jerich: Soldat has been changed before, I'm sure it would still survive another change.

Oh, I forgot to mention, this shows that you even think the change(whatever the hell this change is) would be a detriment to soldat.

We is me and everyone that wants to nerf the nade. We is the people in weapon balance discussion, we solve problems from "core".

You have been giving me all these points and nothing to show for. You have yet to "SOLVE" this so-called "problem". You are trying to counter points but not in one post the past few days have you even came up with a solution. All you have done is complain why grenades should be nerfed.

I'm done this debate with you. I understand we're on two different sides of the spectrum. I was neutral, until your points shifted me over against this idea. You can waste your time to decide to reply back or not, because I'm not.

[Magus86]

Okay, I want to start off by saying that I know I'm not very popular around here, but that's okay. Secondly, I don't see why it matters whether or not someone plays competetively. It's not like there's a certain set of tactics used only in competition...

Here we go: Okay... problems with grenades... I agree it is sometimes too easy to kill with them sometimes because they explode on impact, but I like throwing a grenade in someone's face. My only problem with the grenades is that people drop them like bombs, one right after the other. That's annoying. I think if anything must be done to them, there should be a more realistic(I know, soldat isn't realistic, don't tell me because that's not the point) rate of "fire" so this doesn't happen. Other than that, they're fine as far as I'm concerned.

I do wish that they were more consistant though. What I mean by this is... if they're going to explode upon impact of colliders and people, then they really should explode on impact of EVERYTHING. Either that, or they shouldn't explode on impact at all(the way it used to be). Other than that, I see no problem with grenades...

And I'd like to add that whoever suggests that they're overused and overpowered based on stats compared to all other weapons is a retard. No matter which gun you pick, you always have grenades. Everybody has them at all times, so it only makes sense that you'll see more grenade kills than any other individual weapon. If we saw otherwise, I'd be extremely shocked. And since everybody has them, there's no advantage/disadvantage.

The only thing that I really think needs to be changed about Soldat is that the Barret should have its delay removed, AND it should be weakened so that if you want to get a 1-shot kill you have to actually hit the enemy in the head or a vital organ. I don't think it makes sense that you die from a shot to the tip of your foot. However, it's a Barret, so it needs to be powerful. This is partially why I think Soldat's sniper rifle should be something other than a Barret(also because a real one is extremely heavy and has an assload of recoil. It's not something you want to be lugging around with you all day, and I'm pretty sure you have to shoot it lying down unless you want to get knocked on your ass). Then again, we shouldn't really have a minigun either. Anyway, the point is that the delay pisses me off. I understand why they did it, but I think they could have gone about changing the Barret in a better way.

[SDFilm]

You said primes kills faster than nades...well, they dont. Nades can kill the same if not better as only two main has the KO ability, while nade possess the intrinsic ability to do so. Nade also has the highest firing rate of instant kills for a weapon that could do instakill.

Sorry, I meant that primaries have more advantages to kill over grenades. Again, this is a situational issue. Depending on situation, one has the greater advantage over the other. Most of the time, the primary will have the advantage due to range abilities. Rightfully so, the grenade shouldn't have more advantages than primaries. Just because it has the highest firing rate, it is only applicate in the short range. I'd say that's fairly balanced.

Indeed- grenades are a specialised auxillery weapon- can really kick ass, but only in some (though not rare) situations and won't last you through a prolonged firefight. Where as Primary weapons are (generally speaking) more versatile, has a greater range and unlimited ammo.

Nades are in between secondary and primary weapons; while not as relyible as primaries, they don't have quite as much drawbacks as seconderies. Being a 'glass cannon' weapon, you'd have to be very skilled to use ONLY nades in a game and win. Though especialy with rapidly spawning nade packs, it's certainly not impossible, due to their strength.

Although the one thing that makes nades cheap is almost M79-like rushing nade-in-your-face. Though this isn't as bad as the M79, since its limited and everyone has the same chance. Though the planned reduce in bullet-push could make this rushing tactic all the more effective.

The only thing that I really think needs to be changed about Soldat is that the Barret should have its delay removed, AND it should be weakened so that if you want to get a 1-shot kill you have to actually hit the enemy in the head or a vital organ. I don't think it makes sense that you die from a shot to the tip of your foot. However, it's a Barret, so it needs to be powerful. This is partially why I think Soldat's sniper rifle should be something other than a Barret(also because a real one is extremely heavy and has an assload of recoil. It's not something you want to be lugging around with you all day, and I'm pretty sure you have to shoot it lying down unless you want to get knocked on your ass). Then again, we shouldn't really have a minigun either. Anyway, the point is that the delay pisses me off. I understand why they did it, but I think they could have gone about changing the Barret in a better way.

The barrett was way too easy without the delay. Camping was rife, and they were seen as just as 'noobish' as the M79 was. And Soldat's engine and gamyplay style doesn't really support headshots and other vital organ shots, the characters are just too small for that. Sure, the nades can only 1-hit-kill on feet/legs, but you're close them them anyway, and the Barrett just can't survive as a 2-hit-kill weapon, where as the nades can; and indeed, it further adds to the nade's risky 'glass cannon' position.