Grenades - Need to be nerfed

[jerich]

Jerich, don't be ignorant. How many experienced clan players miss with a grenade going 50 mph flying into your face. It's not that hard. It is easy, I do it myself, and I will say from my own experience it doesn't take a pro to make use of spamming grenades into someone's face.

least changed weapon in game after all the versions.

You forget the one critical change from 1.2.1 to 1.3 that gave them this over powered ability to explode on contact.

1. Grenades to face won't kill you unless your low health. Sometimes it just pushes you back without any health taken.

2. Spamming is achieved only if you have the grenades in your expense. Depending on the map, it might be harder to restock. If you are able to keep the nades rushing in, you should be rewarded to spam, if willing to do so. The only spam problem I see is with the base, or various nade spawns, where they can be overused. That is the only problem I see with nades. If the spawns were higher or the repawn time was longer, it wouldn't be easily restockable and would lessen spam. This is certainly not the problem with the grenade itself, but the map design.

Otherwise, spammability and explosion on contact will compensate for the grenades limited range(especially upward). The strength of the nades lies within the art of throwing in the foot area which can be countered by a primaries versality of range to stay away and overpower or push back the enemy.

3. I don't see the change in tha manual but I apologize in advance if I am wrong. But if they did, I'm sure it was with the intent of making it a better playing experience, whether we agree or disagree with it.

[Extacide]

1. They don't always kill in one hit, but to your face they will take at least 75-80% of your health leaving you open to be killed instantly as they fire bullets at the same time. (One spas shot, one ruger shot, one desert eagles shot, a few steyr bullets, two AK bullets, two minimi bullets, a few HK bullets, etc.) The speed of all of this is enough to make it appear that you were basically killed in one hit. That's IF they didn't hit you in the legs which has an extremely high chance of one shot killing you.

2. You say that as if people in soldat die only a few times in each match to even have time to search for grenades. The majority of the time the players pick up three grenades as they spawn and rush at the opposition. If they don't unload all three against them, the rest get bombarded into the opposite base if they themselves aren't dead yet. I always try to steal their grenades because the difference is completely noticeable with an utter reduction in their ability to kill. On the opposite respect, I've won matches especially on maps like laos with no grenade kits with simple, pure weapon aim and precision.

It goes to show a lot of people are dependent on grenades to rush and spam. And don't take my interpretation of spam literally. I'm not always referring to people inaccurately and pathetically lobbing grenades; I also mean rushing and throwing accurate ones as well. I consider all of it spam.

2b. You are partially correct, but you're forgetting two things:

- The velocity that grenades are thrown add up with how fast the player is moving. Grenades can go very far (especially upward) if the user simply jets into the direction that they're aiming the grenade. Almost any target within their sight is reachable with a little boost of speed via jump and jet. So, it's not like they're standing still and pathetically lobbing the grenade a few feet; They're chucking these things on the scale of yards.

- You neglect the nature of CTF. People rush at each other and collide dozens of times in each match. RARELY are they given a chance to "stay away" from grenades when they're rushing at each other at full speed trying to get to the flag as fast as they can. My strategy is extremely defensive and for the most part eliminates grenades from the playing field, but there are very few people who play like I do, and for the most part rush and rely on making a few lucky double kills to generate captures (with the aid of grenades), rather than force it.

3. I wasn't sure myself. I remember VERY clearly before 1.3 that grenades never exploded on contact and went through people, infact I remember this because I was trying to perfect throwing grenades in mid-air so their explosion timed PERFECTLY with another person flying into their direction. Skoskav confirmed this a half dozen pages earlier that there was indeed a change to grenades in 1.3 that allowed them to explode on contact.

[jerich]

1. They don't always kill in one hit, but to your face they will take at least 75-80% of your health leaving you open to be killed instantly as they fire bullets at the same time. (One spas shot, one ruger shot, one desert eagles shot, a few steyr bullets, two AK bullets, two minimi bullets, a few HK bullets, etc.) The speed of all of this is enough to make it appear that you were basically killed in one hit. That's IF they didn't hit you in the legs which has an extremely high chance of one shot killing you.

I find that perfectly fine, but I can see why you are arguing against it.

2. You say that as if people in soldat die only a few times in each match to even have time to search for grenades. The majority of the time the players pick up three grenades as they spawn and rush at the opposition. If they don't unload all three against them, the rest get bombarded into the opposite base if they themselves aren't dead yet. I always try to steal their grenades because the difference is completely noticeable with an utter reduction in their ability to kill. On the opposite respect, I've won matches especially on maps like laos with no grenade kits with simple, pure weapon aim and precision.

What? Please rephrase your first sentence. Anyways, of course their inability of kills will be reduced if you remove one of their weapons. And good for you that you can aim with precision.

It goes to show a lot of people are dependent on grenades to rush and spam. And don't take my interpretation of spam literally. I'm not always referring to people inaccurately and pathetically lobbing grenades; I also mean rushing and throwing accurate ones as well. I consider all of it spam.

Not in all cases are they dependent, players just use it because it is in their dispense. Also take in account that you are able to use the grenades at the same time as your primary or secondary whereas you can not with a primary and secondary. So most people will go and shoot and throw rather than have the time to switch weapons. And it would make sense that it should be faster to kill with 2 weapons than 1. And that is why I'm perfectly fine with you first statement above.

- The velocity that grenades are thrown add up with how fast the player is moving. Grenades can go very far (especially upward) if the user simply jets into the direction that they're aiming the grenade. Almost any target within their sight is reachable with a little boost of speed via jump and jet. So, it's not like they're standing still and pathetically lobbing the grenade a few feet; They're chucking these things on the scale of yards.

True you can do that, but I think that isn't spamming anymore, but more of skill with "aim" and "precision." I can see why you would still think its overpowered, but at least I don't think so in this case.

- You neglect the nature of CTF. People rush at each other and collide dozens of times in each match. RARELY are they given a chance to "stay away" from grenades when they're rushing at each other at full speed trying to get to the flag as fast as they can. My strategy is extremely defensive and for the most part eliminates grenades from the playing field, but there are very few people who play like I do, and for the most part rush and rely on making a few lucky double kills to generate captures (with the aid of grenades), rather than force it.

Sorry, I meant "stay away" as in dodging instead of completely avoiding the player. I'm saying that the more versatile weapon will have a better advantage over grenades giving the advantage over most situations. Just in your case with your ruger, you are able to kill someone who is dependent on nade spamming you while they are on their reload because of your range and ability to reload.

3. I wasn't sure myself. I remember VERY clearly before 1.3 that grenades never exploded on contact and went through people, infact I remember this because I was trying to perfect throwing grenades in mid-air so their explosion timed PERFECTLY with another person flying into their direction. Skoskav confirmed this a half dozen pages earlier that there was indeed a change to grenades in 1.3 that allowed them to explode on contact.

Ok , thanks for the clear up.

[muzikman]

What would work is just to not be able to throw grenades whilst reloading.  If you think about it, people spam greades when their gun has ran out and this mades no sense, I mean, is he reloading with his manhood or something?

[Extacide]

I find that perfectly fine, but I can see why you are arguing against it.

Then we can safely establish a simple difference of opinion.

What? Please rephrase your first sentence.

People average 25 deaths per round in a typical clan war. Not much time to search for grenades. They pick them up at base and that's pretty much it. They generally unleash them before they die if they haven't used them yet.

And it would make sense that it should be faster to kill with 2 weapons than 1.

It's aggravating when grenades carry the match by doing more damage than the primaries, but at least you know where I'm coming from. I don't need to explain myself anymore.

Sorry, I meant "stay away" as in dodging instead of completely avoiding the player.

It's REALLY hard to dodge a grenade when you're rushing towards the flag, and a spas user is going even faster towards you like a freight train, and the grenade from that point is just magic. A very good majority of competent clan players are accurate enough to make consistent hits, it's not that easy. That's the problem, too easy, and too powerful.

I'm saying that the more versatile weapon will have a better advantage over grenades giving the advantage over most situations.

I don't see where you are coming with this. You will have to elaborate further.

[soulblade]

Stop arguing and make a poll already.

It seems there are few players wanting a nerf for nades with Excruciator and Extacide replying to just about everyones's post.
I still don't see how you could think they are overpowered.

Now if we were to play soldat without nades then it would mainly depend on height advantage.
Players would try and maximise their height in the air to gain the height advantage and soldat would be sloooowwwww. Defending would become trivial with no risk of attackers nading one's feet. In fact even WITH nades defenders still have an advantage (top players can kill before attackers can get close enough to nade).

Grenades keep the current weapon balance, BALANCED.

Soldat was fast paced in 1.2.1 because of how strong the guns were. Most battles were over in a second or less so it hardly mattered where a player was positioned meaning players could keep to the ground and rush around. At this time nades had little purpose.
Nowadays guns kill slower and therefore height advantage has greater effect. Players no longer stick to the ground as much and try to keep high in the air (this is what makes soldat slower). Nades counter this playstyle with the 1 feet hit kill. Not only do nades balance soldat in this way but they also balance the general weakness of the guns since 1.3.0 and are now used in combos with primary weapons.

Nades have allowed soldat to remain relatively fast paced.

[Extacide]

I have to disagree with you about the actual 'advantage' of height. I can agree my first instinct is to go as high as possible, but when I concentrate I avoid the air as much as possible. When you're high in the air, your movement is extremely limited and you're just a floating target. On the ground you have much more mobility, and more options to avoid fire. The only disadvantage is that its not as easy to aim upwards as it is downwards (because most people in soldat instinctively learn to fly upwards and aim downards), and walking on grenades ESPECIALLY with the crappy netcode thus INVISIBLE grenades are a problem. But again, when I pay attention I don't have problems.

To those who think height means everything, charge at me I say. I'll bring you down faster than you went up.

Grenades keep the current weapon balance, BALANCED.

Do you define balanced as being able to one shot everyone with any gun? The guns are balanced by themselves. I've broken down my theories of how to use the balance as an advantage, but I'm not going to bring that up. Point is, all of the guns are balanced. Grenades are just tossed into the mix and do nothing but throw the last big of logical balance soldat has out of whack. People just rush as fast as they can to get within grenade distance. Theres not many moments where the actual gun is used to do more damage than the grenades themselves to even justly say that the grenades help the current balance.

Stop arguing and make a poll already.

If the balance was based upon polls and what the general soldat community thought, then the soldat balance would be the same every single version. Just because people say grenades are fine, doesn't mean they're balanced. I still say they are extremely unbalanced and the current soldat population is too dependent upon them.

In fact even WITH nades defenders still have an advantage

Go in too close and you're just asking to be naded. It's common sense to keep your distance if you want to keep grenades out of the fight. What's the problem with being defensive anyways?

[soulblade]

If the balance was based upon polls and what the general soldat community thought, then the soldat balance would be the same every single version. Just because people say grenades are fine, doesn't mean they're balanced. I still say they are extremely unbalanced and the current soldat population is too dependent upon them.

Actually alot of the changes that have been made to the balance have come from popular opinion...recent examples are the ruger and the aug, both are thought as overpowered by the majority and both have been nerfed in the new version. The reason they were changed were because of the popular opinion.

Now there is no mass whine of "omg nades are imbalanced nerfffff" because nades are balanced and are not affecting soldat in a negative way.The reason this thread is so long is because you take the time to reply to everybody's post with the same old stuff again and again.
Now make a poll already.

And what do you mean people have become too dependent on nades? Its like saying people have become too dependent on primaries...Yeah they should use secondaries instead!

Go in too close and you're just asking to be naded. It's common sense to keep your distance if you want to keep grenades out of the fight. What's the problem with being defensive anyways?

Everytime someone plays defensively it slows the game down...If everybody played this style there wouldn't be any caps.
Then we can rename the gamemode to Defend The Flag !

[Extacide]

Actually alot of the changes that have been made to the balance have come from popular opinion...

How do you justify this to the whine after each balance? Do you like to contradict reality?

Now there is no mass whine of "omg nades are imbalanced nerfffff"

Of course not. Why would they want to nerf a weapon that proves to be more than useful to them? Thats the case with every single balance. People dominate with one weapon, and only a few step forward to really say how over powered it is.

Its like saying people have become too dependent on primaries...

This statement is apples to oranges with my argument, and also rather ignorant.

If everybody played this style there wouldn't be any caps.

I get plenty of caps, and the opposition gets none. It's common sense. If the enemy can't get past you, then they can't get the flag. If they can't get the flag, they can't cap. If they can't cap, they can't win. The more you kill them and the less they kill you, the further you push the encounter line, until that line is in their own base and they can't even spawn before we get there and grab their flag. Many clans do it, and it's a logical strategy. Its extremely complex, and I don't feel like drawing up maps and graphs for you to understand.

[The Geologist]

LOL at maps and graphs.

I see a fair amount of contradiction in your argument as well.  And despite what you may think, popular opinion does hold weight in the push for changes between versions.  Despite the backlash that occasionally follows.

[Extacide]

Care to elaborate? The argument of popular opinion is extremely broad, and soulblade is generalizing far too much.

[The Geologist]

Elaborate on what, exactly? 

Popular opinion refers to idea that are suggested/supported enough to draw the attention of those in control of updating the game.

You contradict yourself by claiming nades are such a problem but stating in various ways how you have no problem with them, continue to get caps and dominate other players who also have nades, and can effectively shoot down anyone within range/attempting to get a height advantage.  In short, nades appear no problem for you.  Why so serious?  Other people can do the same.

All the guns are balanced.  A nade isn't a gun.  Why should it be put into the same class?  That's comparing apples and oranges.  It's one thing every player on a map has equal access to despite their choice of weapon, and can use (or fail to use) to the best of their ability. 

Anyhoo, I don't intend for this to become some "point-counterpoint" fodder.  Respond if you like, but so long as there are only two of you carrying this argument I honestly don't see it progressing very far.

[Extacide]

Well, then I guess I'll respond by elaborating myself as opposed to using counter arguments.

You contradict yourself by claiming nades are such a problem but stating in various ways how you have no problem with them...

I never said I didn't have a problem with them, I said I just played to avoid them. That doesn't mean I don't get screwed by them anyway. It's not like I'm always out of grenade distance. This varies entirely by situation.

...can effectively shoot down anyone within range/attempting to get a height advantage.

Er, this is a different argument entirely, and has almost nothing to do with me talking about countering the nade tactics. This is just a matter of height over ground advantage, and which is easier to aim as opposed to freedom of movement. I prefer the latter.

Why should it be put into the same class?

This is a counter argument. I never exactly put it into the same class. However, I still think like guns it should be balanced regardless. Yes, every player has access to it, and I find it quite annoying. You're almost implying that I suck with grenades and it's my problem. Not that you're saying it like that, but one can draw their own conclusion to that. That still however, doesn't make grenades balanced with the game and the gun themselves, just because everyone can use them. That doesn't change the fact that they are extremely powerful, and retardedly strong in the common and capable hands of players in clan wars. All that means is that EVERYONE is going to spam them, so it just amplifies the effect. Playing in a clan war is like being in a pinball machine. You just bounce around every where from the massive grenade use, IF you get lucky and a grenade doesn't register. :/

As for the progression of this debate, I can agree that some of this is my opinion, that other people have theirs, and that there is a fine line in between this. I however am not going to let people utterly contradict my experiences with petty arguments that don't live up to and acknowledge the reality of how soldat is. When people say players aren't dependent upon grenades, or that soldat would be too defensive without them, I feel the need to respond. I also know other people who would agree with me but simply do not post on these forums. I mean, it's soldat forums; It's community really doesn't represent the entirety of soldat. There are so few players that post here to represent the clan community, and most of them don't really care. The majority does lean towards preserving grenades, but it's not that big of a majority. And again, that also does not really define what truly is balanced and what truly is not. No one can really determine that, but popular opinion certainly does not either.

[KYnetiK]

I agree that there is an increasing dependancy on using nade+primary as a initial offensive tactic. I think theres enough dynamic ability in Soldat to not let this tactic become the par for how we play.

I personally prefer using nades as a finisher or barrier, as mines, making people land on them, and firing up into their legs as I shout "HADOUKEN!". A lot of people prefer to spam nades and then click. People will do what is effective, and eventually it will become orthodox, Soldat becomes static, and only then will people demand change. Extacide is merely one of few who sees this coming.

[-Major-]

its not as easy to aim upwards as it is downwards

actually it's the other way around.

[excruciator]

I agree that there is an increasing dependancy on using nade+primary as a initial offensive tactic. I think theres enough dynamic ability in Soldat to not let this tactic become the par for how we play.

...People will do what is effective, and eventually it will become orthodox, Soldat becomes static, and only then will people demand change. Extacide is merely one of few who sees this coming.

My..awe inspiring words.

All the guns are balanced.  A nade isn't a gun.  Why should it be put into the same class?  That's comparing apples and oranges.

You can't compare them as gun vs nades, but you can do the comparison as weapons(or in the case of apple vs oranges, as fruits). and thats exactly what he is doing.

Soul, A poll would only reveal the popularity. Not necessarily what is right. It's not the first time democracy made the wrong decision.

[The Geologist]

You can't compare them as gun vs nades, but you can do the comparison as weapons(or in the case of apple vs oranges, as fruits). and thats exactly what he is doing.

Soul, A poll would only reveal the popularity. Not necessarily what is right. It's not the first time democracy made the wrong decision.

On the other hand, it could also show just how few people are in favor of nades being nerfed.

Anyhow, comparing the two still makes no sense at all.  And, ah...no duh?  Of course that's what he's doing.  Still doesn't make it logical, and you apparently missed the whole point of that saying.

[tehsnipah]

its not as easy to aim upwards as it is downwards

actually it's the other way around.

They're both same -_-

[excruciator]

You can't compare them as gun vs nades, but you can do the comparison as weapons(or in the case of apple vs oranges, as fruits). and thats exactly what he is doing.

Soul, A poll would only reveal the popularity. Not necessarily what is right. It's not the first time democracy made the wrong decision.

On the other hand, it could also show just how few people are in favor of nades being nerfed.

And that also has nothing to do with correctness of the decision.

You so called "point" is to point out that you cannot compare gun and nades because nade is not under the category of gun. To me, what you are saying is simply that you cannot compare two things under two different classifications.
My point reclassified gun and nade under "weapons", thus making his comparison valid.(As I successfully found a similarity between the two, making comparison possible/valid)

[The Geologist]

That really isn't a point at all, and it's a bad line of reasoning.  I could compare cars and bicycles with that logic, saying they're both vehicles.  But we'll never see anyone rushing to make cars slower for the sake of bicycles.  Just because they're both weapons doesn't mean they should be treated equally, or that one should be nerfed to suit the other.  Primaries changed to suit primaries, yes.  Nades changed to suit primaries, no.

BTW, vote for most unbalanced weapon is up in another topic.  Looks like attention is being put where it should be, on something other than the nades.  Shocking. 

And yes, I believe it does have something to do with the "correctness" of the solution.  Why should the game get a nerf for two people ranting about nades?  Are you really correct?  Are you sure you're not just reading too much into the situation, or quite possibly, seeing a problem that isn't even there?

You may say "everyone else chooses not to see the problem".  But quite possibly, they think there is no problem.  Probably because there is none.

But hey, why stop at nerfing nades?  Why not nerf the m79 some more since it has such high damage as well, and *gasp* you can reload it?  It is a grenade launcher after all.  Oh, wait...the problem was that because the nade is neither a primary or a secondary, but people get loads of kills with it, that it should get taken down a peg?

Give me a break.  As far as I remember nades have always been a popular option, good for strategy, and a vital part of the game as they are.    If it really bothers you so much then WM the nades and nerf them down, play on nadeless servers, etc.