Grenades - Need to be nerfed

[Extacide]

I think what Excruciator is trying to hit upon is that grenades aren't in their own axe-proof glass case, outside of the normal balance of weapons. They really do affect the entire balance, and the game play trend. It's all within one game. Just ONE example is how readily they are able to support suicidal combos such as m79/knife; a VERY unstable setup where missing is pretty much death, and screws over your other teammates. Grenades are too big of a crutch for that. This is just one small example however, and is not the basis for my arguments, rather just an example. I think the argument that grenades aren't comparable along side of the weapon balance is kind of ignorant. Also to clarify, my apples to oranges comment was referring to soulblade saying that people being dependent on grenades is like saying people are dependent upon primaries. It's a completely different situation, makes almost no sense and really has no validity other than sort of proving my own argument further.

There are 300+ players actively in clans that aren't accounted for in these forums from lack of registration or activity, that would be able to recognize my points from a clan war perspective, and make their own opinion based upon their experiences of which are similar to my own. I really don't know what you're trying to tell me with popular opinion when the majority of players from these forums are pub/gather stars. Me and Excruciator are also not the only people who support this idea. MANY others put down their stance on this issue in the earlier pages of this thread. Whether they choose to champion this thread and keep it alive is a different matter entirely; I'm going to do that, so that this topic is at least within the back of the minds of the soldat beta testers.

If it really bothers you so much then WM the nades and nerf them down, play on nadeless servers, etc.

Help me convince every major soldat league to start implementing a WM that nerfs nades then. Since their rules usually are based upon playing default vanilla soldat, this isn't going to happen. Once again, the clan war community is grossly misrepresented here.

 

[soulblade]

your an active clanner? coz I've never heard of you or excruciator for that matter and just from glancing at a few of the pages lots of clan players have disagreed with this idea including: Mrpluckpluck, Jerich, Mar77a, Skoskav, Demonic and myself.
Only clanner I saw that wants the nerf is Mancer and he doesn't use nades anyway.
So I don't know where your getting your facts from. The popular opinion amongst normal players and clanners is the same.
Don't touch the damn nades!

[excruciator]

Being an active clanner does not affect ones ability to see whether the weapon is overpowered or not. It might take longer to realize that fact if you are actively involved in the clan scene. But in the end you will come to the same conclusion.

Just so you know, I used to be involved in the clan scene, but these days I just gather under different nicks.

Don't touch the damn nades!

Thats your opinion. Albeit a popular one, it does not mean it is the correct decision.

[Extacide]

I'm an American, so I doubt you see me often. I've been playing soldat for nearly four years, having been an active member of 20+ clans, and 5 seasons of SCTFL, 3 (or 4, I can't remember) made to the playoffs. Theres your credentials. Excruciator however, I've never seen either. There are a lot more 'clanners' in support of this idea. Mancer does in fact use grenades, and I can easily say hes among one of the most crafty to use them, if not the best grenade user.

My facts are quite in order, and my experience is enough to confirm most of it as fact from opinion.

[Edit]

Er Excruciator, I'd have to disagree. When you're in a clan war, I don't think there is any difficulty in seeing how unbalanced a weapon is. Infact clan wars make it all the more obvious because everyone in the mainstream clan scene in soldat can be fitted within one to two skill brackets, all of which use the weapons excellently between each individual player's variable skill level. That being said, it's what makes grenades way to0 hectic; Everyone at this point can use them very effectively and they are just TOO useful in all of these players' hands.

[excruciator]

If you are competive player, them you will use the overpowered ones. I doubt that you will see how overpowered a weapon is if you use it frequently. Even if you do, you wouldn't admit that is overpowered.

[soulblade]

If you are so confident that the majority of clanners support your idea then post this on the sctfl forums, you'll soon find out but stop spamming the same thread please.

[excruciator]

If you are so confident that the majority of clanners support your idea then post this on the sctfl forums, you'll soon find out but stop spamming the same thread please.

I don't think I ever said that most clanner agree to my idea. I actually think most clanner will be opposed to this idea.

Posting a controversial thread in a biased community would not the wisest move to make.

[Extacide]

I never said a majority supports my idea, infact I said the majority was against it. It's not that big of a majority though, although I don't want to predict the range, because it's rather wide and not many have actually voiced their opinion at all on this subject so the actual numbers are unpredictable, and none of us can really even make much of an estimate, other than the fact that there are more people for than against, and my argument for this is because they've grown too dependent and don't really see how grenades affect the game. Please stop twisting my words.

Posting a controversial thread in a biased community would not the wisest move to make.

He makes a valid point, I could put a poll through SCTFL. Even then though, very few people are going to answer After the next season, I'm going to guess one 100 people total would vote, which is only 1/3 of the community estimated to participate in SCTFL (MUCH fewer voted on the poll I mentioned below). Even fewer would say why they voted for it and participate in a discussion (and by fewer, I'm thinking the ratio would be 1:10 for everyone who voted).

I did however, attempt a poll at the idea of changing the rules to reduce the default amount of maximum grenades from three down to two, but it was rejected by a 5:1 margin. I can also safely say that it wouldn't target a proper solution to the problem I have elaborated here, rather just reduce the grenades people had to work with. In the end I'd disagree with it too if I had the latter option to nerf the grenades in general. On the flip side however, there were some 'clanners' that agreed that grenades were over powered. Some agreed reducing grenades in SCTFL could help, others didn't, but the idea that they were over powered in general was still there. Even others agreed they were over powered, but didn't want them touched because the game is simply too dependent upon them in the clan scene. My favorite quote from all of that was (something along the lines of, at least): Three grenades, one for every player on the other team. That is one of the reasons why I further push this nerf.

[LtKillroy]

If the majority wants something in a game, that's what happens in all but the most extreme cases, like hacking. That's basically just how it works. Most people like nades how they are, so that's how they will be kept.

[Extacide]

That is not always the case when it comes to the balance, nor is it always the case in any game. There are always benefits and risks,. Those ALWAYS have more weight than what the majority wants, and this is usually almost ALWAYS the case. The population be damned if it makes for a better balance. Unfortunately, this topic has a spin as to what type of gameplay people want. Regardless, it doesn't change the fact that soldat is A LOT more dependent upon grenades now than it was before, and that has mixed experiences and results. I personally don't like it.

I think I'm going to make a survey on the SCTFL forums to get the jist of where part of the clan community stands, and a different survey here that supplements the fact that a lot of posters here haven't experienced the gameplay I mainly speak of.

[Farah]

replying to excruciator's posts is stupid. i called him out on irc and all he said was LEARN TO GUN, which is what he's saying here, in a pretentious way(too bad he's nowhere near the best "gunner" in soldat)

[excruciator]

replying to excruciator's posts is stupid. i called him out on irc and all he said was LEARN TO GUN, which is what he's saying here, in a pretentious way(too bad he's nowhere near the best "gunner" in soldat)

Don't worry, it was enough to crush you.
I think I still have the screen.

If I remembered right, it was 20 to 11-15, for me of course.

If the majority wants something in a game, that's what happens in all but the most extreme cases, like hacking. That's basically just how it works. Most people like nades how they are, so that's how they will be kept.

Not quite, since the weapon mod is handled by few, popularity might not reflect the choice that the BT are going to make.

[SDFilm]

Posting a controversial thread in a biased community would not the wisest move to make.

Stop flattering yourself as somekind of controversial yet honourable whistle blower in a corrupt establishment. If it hasn't already been clear enough, frankly the real reason why people don't agree with that nerfing is because they think (or know) that it won't do anything to help the balance, and would infact make it worse.

Is this thread really making any usefull progress? I hope it just doesn't go around in circles for as long as people can be bothered to post in it.

Agree to disagree?

[-Major-]

replying to excruciator's posts is stupid. i called him out on irc and all he said was LEARN TO GUN, which is what he's saying here, in a pretentious way(too bad he's nowhere near the best "gunner" in soldat)

it was enough to crush you.

If I remembered right, it was 20 to 11-15, for me of course.

well... that low number just tells me you were the flag carrier , in otherwords, it was your teammates who crushed him.

anyhow, the nades have a VERY limited range. and everyone does in fact have nades. and at this point the guns are somewhat balacned, meaning, the nades are balanced. otherwise it would've been noticed if some weapon is superior with  combination with nades to any other weapon.

[soulblade]

Is this thread really making any usefull progress? I hope it just doesn't go around in circles for as long as people can be bothered to post in it.

It will go around in circles as long as Extacide and Excruciator are still posting in it.

[Extacide]

the nades have a VERY limited range

Wrong.

Nade speed stacks with player speed, giving the nade a little more than 50% screen distance range, on top of how easy it is to get close to some one. They have a very WIDE range.

and everyone does in fact have nades. and at this point the guns are somewhat balacned

Just because everyone uses them, that doesn't mean that they are not retardedly strong. This point has pretty much 0 validity within this topic. It's the balance of the game in it's entirety. The guns aren't balanced enough, and I can give you a bunch of situations that supplement other weapons like crutches and make them extremely versatile in situations they should NOT be superior.

I'm going to keep replying for as long as there are people with these misconceptions of the reality. I'll avoid an opinion debate as much as possible, but for the mean time I'm going to keep making replies against bias.

[The Geologist]

This entire topic is an opinion debate.  Kind of pointless to call any response that doesn't agree with your own a bias, considering you are also biased.

[Extacide]

The ultimate decision is opinion based, but a lot of the facts that have been made up to support those opinions are BS, so I'm just going to keep disproving them until I finally bring it down to the bare bone fact that people just want to keep grenades OP cause they like it that way. Not because "everyone can use them."

[The Geologist]

Let's be honest, both sides have tossed up a fair amount of BS "facts".  Few of which are facts, but more appropriately observations.  That whole "fact" thing gets tossed around a bit too conveniently when it suits someones position.

What's more, you're doing your cause a disservice by branding those who don't agree with you as "wanting to keep nades overpowered because they like them overpowered".  That's just forcing your position on the opposition.

 I thought you were trying to rally against nades being overpowered?  Now you're trying to prove a community thinks a certain way?  Get your arguments straight, man.

Many people have spoke up about this, and the majority don't see nades as a problem.

Just out of curiosity, who here wants to keep nades the way they are because they know they're overpowered and don't want to change that "fact"?

[STM1993]

Just out of curiosity, who here wants to keep nades the way they are because they know they're overpowered and don't want to change that "fact"?

I'm not one who uses nades a lot, but I can see why people see it as overpowered. Personally, I'd rather say that the nades are a little strong and could use a bit of a nerf in damage, but ultimately it's quite balanced and I believe it should be kept the way it is so as to keep Soldat fast-paced. Also, in the end, I'm sure all of the guns would be given a major buff after everything is perfectly balanced in their current weaker state compared to 1.2.1 and when that happens, it's mostly gunning, less of grenades.