Grenades - Need to be nerfed

[-Major-]

Popularity has little to do with weapon's overpoweredness.
Nerf is given to overpowered weapons, not the least popular ones.

that would be for individual weapons, now the nades are global.

That only works if you compare between players. If both side has nades, then its balanced.
But we are talking about weapon comparison, in this case, clearly, nade > weapon.

Explain why that nerf is worse than a major damage nerf.

why the fuck would it even get nerfed? and no, nades are not greater than weapons.

[Warchild]

It's tough to just walk in on these threads as they are so long but let me add my $.02.

I think nades could use a slight damage reduction when hitting the legs and I think servers should simply try to limit the amount of nades they allow. Honestly I don't mind them the way they are but in servers where you have no penalty for throwing hundreds of grenades there is a problem.

Also, why do they do more damage when they go slower? What the hell is the deal with that?

[Extacide]

Well first off Warchild, this is coming from the perspective of the clan scene. They took measures to reduce grenades and made the default number from four to three in the standard clan war server setup. This still hasn't fixed the issue, and it's very hard to push through a modified rule into their setup that isn't default to soldat. The clan war setup adapts to what default soldat puts out, so it's up to soldat itself to force this change in.

The whole point of that is to make people think the worst case scenario by using
ambiguous wording

I don't know what you're trying to accomplish by making people think grenades could be as useless as statistically possible. I really, cannot fathom your logic in doing this, and you justified your comment. This is now where I disagree with you. Grenades don't need THAT big of a nerf. They only need enough of a nerf to spread the weapon usage a bit.

Did I mention that the damage would stay the same?
I should've said "few seconds left before the nade explode"

If they stayed the same, then my opinion would stay the same because that was exactly what was in my mind. They could fire a bullet or two, leave a sticky and run away and that guy would be done for. If the sticky could land on individual parts, just put it on the leg and they would be dead. To even consider that it would take a few seconds to act and inflict damage with the weapon and that this would fix it, this is just a big fat red NO.

But we are talking about weapon comparison, in this case, clearly, nade > weapon.

Excruciator, this is the wrong justification against a global grenade argument. Regardless of what is global and what is not, that doesn't justify them being balanced with the game in it's entirety. By this same stupid logic, we could give grenades nuclear explosions that kill the entire team anywhere on the map, but say it's balanced because everyone can use them with their weapons. In which case regardless though, you are correct. Grenades ARE more stronger than guns. Anyone who denies this is a fucking moron. Grenades do 80% to 100% damage to a person which puts them at critical health or kills them. Soldat is fast paced enough to get in everyone's face and spam them.

Explain why that nerf is worse than a major damage nerf.

...I dont get what you're aiming for with this question.

why the feck would it even get nerfed? and no, nades are not greater than weapons.

Get out of publics, you don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

[Warchild]

Well first off Warchild, this is coming from the perspective of the clan scene. They took measures to reduce grenades and made the default number from four to three in the standard clan war server setup. This still hasn't fixed the issue, and it's very hard to push through a modified rule into their setup that isn't default to soldat. The clan war setup adapts to what default soldat puts out, so it's up to soldat itself to force this change in.

Three to four is a lot... especially if the frequency is turned up and there are 3-4 boxes in each base. And I'm not talking about modding a server or anything, I'm saying I think the default damage should be brought down a bit. Make it so it takes a few more shots after the initial nade to kill. I may not have ever been in any clans but I've played enough soldat to know what I'm talking about, including 3v3s.

And I think you missed excruciator's point on one or more of those responses.

[excruciator]

See if this change your mind.

By adding sticky+timer would extend the time needed for nades to kill while keeping the damage the same. So is essencially a dps nerf, or a damage nerf.

That why I asked why this nerf would be worse than a damage nerf.

Also, by adding a timer would weaken the role of the nade as a rush weapon(yet not making it completely unusable when rushing) so the nade would be back being a tactical weapon, yet at the same time, allowing skilled players to rush with it with little drawbacks.

If nade was nerfed, even minimally, then cluster would seem relatively useful. But people often think that for cluster to be useful then it has to be better than nades. Which is wrong.
Its fun to mess with people.

EDIT:
8th had the idea for m79, that the m79 nade's speed would be independent from player's speed. So the speed will not be added or subtracted to the bullet speed.

Nade could use some of this.

[Extacide]

Okay see, but you don't get it. My main problem is how easy it is to hit people with a grenade. Sticky would make it easier for the grenades to reg. Infact it would probably do maximum damage every single time just from the nature. Once again, big fat red NO..

If nade was nerfed, even minimally, then cluster would seem relatively useful.

You don't get it. That would require a major nerf. The grenade right now is a 12/10 and the cluster is a 0/10. To make cluster seem relatively useful, grenades would have to be a 2/10. I'm suggesting somewhere in the ballpark of 6/7/10. I don't care what people think, you're suggesting way too big of a nerf to make cluster seem relatively useful. Also, you're not making any sense once again.

8th had the idea for m79, that the m79 nade's speed would be independent from player's speed. So the speed will not be added or subtracted to the bullet speed.

Only half the problem. That doesn't fix people dropping grenades right next to each other for instant kills, or the spam, and grenades can still be used tactically while standing still. It needs a different kind of nerf.

[-Major-]

why the feck would it even get nerfed? and no, nades are not greater than weapons.

Get out of publics, you don't know what the feck you're talking about.

yeah, because I always play in public games . try ret vs ONLY nade, or any other weapon vs ONLY nade. nades combined with weapons are ofc greater than only guns.

and stop whining about the nades, just because you can't properly attack something.

[Extacide]

and stop whining about the nades, just because you can't properly attack something.

What are you, 13? Kay, you're ignored from this point on, being you have nothing of value to contribute to this post, and you don't have any experience to even have the slightest clue as to what I'm even referring to.

[-Major-]

and stop whining about the nades, just because you can't properly attack something.

What are you, 13? Kay, you're ignored from this point on, being you have nothing of value to contribute to this post, and you don't have any experience to even have the slightest clue as to what I'm even referring to.

well after I've read through your posts, the only thing I can come up with is that you're annoyed that you always fail in your attacks because you're naded. but weapons > nades. tell me 1 thing that makes it complete overpower, just one thing, that cannot be done with another weapon. I'm getting so sick of your bad attempts to seem knowledable when every big player goes against you.

[Warchild]

While its true that nades are seperate in relation to weapons and thus cannot be called overpowered since everyone has equal access to them. But there is a  problem where nades are currently getting a tremendous percentage of in-game kills, especially in clanwars. Currently, the standard amount of nades in clanwars is 3. This means you start with 1 and get 2 with a nade-pack, not many nades at all, however grenades are still getting around 25% of kills in clanwars. This is a really high amount IMO and if possible should be attempted to be lowered.

Why is it that most or nearly all of the kills/deaths in a game of Soldat are from grenades? My opinion is that the rate of fire for grenades should be lengthened by about a half second/a whole second. Why? Doing this actually returns skill to the grenades, people will be forced to learn how to use them correctly, rather than bash that E button as fast as you can to spam them all over the place.

I disagree. Nade-spamming is not nearly a problem compared to people who use nades intelligently, and can generally get 2+ kills with only 3 nades. Someone whose spamming will get max 1, and most of the time 0.

Most people wont like this, but I believe I suggested it before also. A good way of balancing nades is to make them like secondary weapons. Instead of being able to throw nades while you are shooting a primary, you should "switch" to nades just like to switch to secondaries, and then throw them. This may be bad for the interface since then you will 3 "forms" of weapons, nades, secondaries and primaries. However I think it is something to consider to balance the current power of nades, and hopefully make nades less effective like they used to be.

Nades used to be approximately 17% of kills pre-1.3(I think it was 1.3). And this was with a 4 nade limit, now with 3 they account for around 25% of kills. The reason they increased was because of nade-lag being fixed in 1.3

What do you think of this idea by Poop I found in a previous thread Extacide? Has it been discussed yet?

[excruciator]

and stop whining about the nades, just because you can't properly attack something.

What are you, 13? Kay, you're ignored from this point on, being you have nothing of value to contribute to this post, and you don't have any experience to even have the slightest clue as to what I'm even referring to.

well after I've read through your posts, the only thing I can come up with is that you're annoyed that you always fail in your attacks because you're naded. but weapons > nades. tell me 1 thing that makes it complete overpower, just one thing, that cannot be done with another weapon. I'm getting so sick of your bad attempts to seem knowledable when every big player goes against you.

If he died in the hands of nades... why are weapon > nades? Clearly if weapon are superior he would die in the hands of weapons more often.

[Extacide]

If he died in the hands of nades... why are weapon > nades? Clearly if weapon are superior he would die in the hands of weapons more often.

Er first of all, none of you are active in clan wars so both of you really havent the foggiest as to how I play. Secondly, don't bother replying to him, his statements are invalid and irrelevent to the issue at hand.

What do you think of this idea by Poop I found in a previous thread Extacide? Has it been discussed yet?

It's been discussed. Like most ideas that even hint at a nerf of grenades, it gets shot down. As have my ideas, as have his. It really would fix the way grenades are but, its a DRASTIC change. Not only does it affect grenades, but the weapon lay out as well. It may actually kill grenades from being used at all in active fighting, but still make them useful for a rush/escape. I don't know. I'd support it, but it's a bit extreme in terms of the effect it could have and it would most likely be shot down a second time. A lot of people like grenades for their handiness, which me and poop obviously do not like.

[LtKillroy]

Why should this thread be kept open? Both parties have been given ample time to say their arguements, and quite frankly no one is willing to yield even a little. So, why should we keep talking about this? Is either side even really right or wrong? Everything is opinion.

[Warchild]

It's been discussed. Like most ideas that even hint at a nerf of grenades, it gets shot down. As have my ideas, as have his. It really would fix the way grenades are but, its a DRASTIC change. Not only does it affect grenades, but the weapon lay out as well. It may actually kill grenades from being used at all in active fighting, but still make them useful for a rush/escape. I don't know. I'd support it, but it's a bit extreme in terms of the effect it could have and it would most likely be shot down a second time. A lot of people like grenades for their handiness, which me and poop obviously do not like.

Okay, I was just wondering how you felt about different ideas. What do you propose should be done?

[Extacide]

Why should this thread be kept open? Both parties have been given ample time to say their arguements, and quite frankly no one is willing to yield even a little. So, why should we keep talking about this? Is either side even really right or wrong? Everything is opinion.

Because the majority of the active posters here aren't active in clan wars and are pub/gather stars, so they really cannot relate to just how overpowered grenades can be (in my opinion, lawl). Most of the beta testers are inactive and hardly play. There are a few that know exactly what I'm talking about and argue against this. That's fine. There were beta testers that argued for but they're gone now. Theres also 200+ opinions missing from this thread, a lot which agree grenades are over powered. The nay sayers will not yield, nor will the complaints. I'm going to keep this thread alive until an appropriate solution is at least agreed by the arguing party (spear headed by yours truly) is a suitable nerf, and put forward to the beta testers. It'll repeat over and over until it's fixed.

Okay, I was just wondering how you felt about different ideas. What do you propose should be done?

Well, my propositions were in the first page and are two fold:

1) Add an air-time to grenades. People refuse to see it added completely where grenades can't impact with players at all (like it USED to be), so my compromise was to make it where the grenades have to be in the air for .5-1.00 seconds before they can make contact with anyone. This prevents people from spamming grenades from up close, and rewards long and well aimed grenade throws. It'll add a random twist to rushing, considering that the faster the grenade is thrown, the less time it has to complete it's air time and make the rusher time his throws correctly, which most likely will end up in just a complete random factor of whether or not the grenade hits.

2) Secondly, add a delay in between throws. Grenade spam is uber fecking annoying, and the easiest thing to do. People like to argue that grenades are precious and people rarely make kills when they spam them as fast as they can. Well, how long is a person even alive FFS? They last 30 seconds per rush on average, my god. Most try to expend as many grenades as they can before they die, or when they're reloading to save themselves, and they have three chances to hit, or one chance to make three. Stupidest thing ever. I should upload the most recent demo of where grenade spam literally costed us a map in an SCTFL match, among many other moments where grenades fecked us over (I could also show the next map where we abused grenades to the max for a huge win. :3)

People have suggested just reducing the damage or changing the way grenades are thrown. The first won't fix the problem because they'll still be dropped everywhere and just boost people more often which is the second to worst, worst being one shotted or reduced to no life upon being hit with a grenade. The ladder including sticky grenades and poop's idea are DRASTIC changes to the gameplay, and alter the game in some form. They technically work, but they have adverse effects on other areas as well. I wouldn't mind seeing grenades gone completely (i.e. no contact with players), but many are too used to grenades, so we have to compromise to keep grenades useful, but not retardedly over powered.

[-Major-]

the majority is. however, please tell me how my posts are irrelevant. or were you playing with words you don't know? this thread should be closed. because the only people who post in it are to that is for grenades, and find anything that goes against them irrelevant and invalid.

[LtKillroy]

Agree with second. Makes it so you cannot noob around. Agree with first probably, I should probably think about it more. I do agree massive nade spam has been known to ruin, at least for me, many Infiltration games.

[Warchild]

1) Add an air-time to grenades. People refuse to see it added completely where grenades can't impact with players at all (like it USED to be), so my compromise was to make it where the grenades have to be in the air for .5-1.00 seconds before they can make contact with anyone. This prevents people from spamming grenades from up close, and rewards long and well aimed grenade throws. It'll add a random twist to rushing, considering that the faster the grenade is thrown, the less time it has to complete it's air time and make the rusher time his throws correctly, which most likely will end up in just a complete random factor of whether or not the grenade hits.

2) Secondly, add a delay in between throws. Grenade spam is uber fecking annoying, and the easiest thing to do. People like to argue that grenades are precious and people rarely make kills when they spam them as fast as they can. Well, how long is a person even alive FFS? They last 30 seconds per rush on average, my god. Most try to expend as many grenades as they can before they die, or when they're reloading to save themselves, and they have three chances to hit, or one chance to make three. Stupidest thing ever. I should upload the most recent demo of where grenade spam literally costed us a map in an SCTFL match, among many other moments where grenades fecked us over (I could also show the next map where we abused grenades to the max for a huge win. :3)

1. "It'll add a random twist to rushing, considering that the faster the grenade is thrown, the less time it has to complete it's air time and make the rusher time his throws correctly, which most likely will end up in just a complete random factor of whether or not the grenade hits." Even though I am all for nerfing the grenades a bit this part right here ruins this idea for me. Lag and hit registration is already enough of a random factor for me, if this were implemented I wouldn't be able to play soldat anymore.

2. Can I see a demo so I know exactly what you mean by 'spam'?

[Extacide]

Even though I am all for nerfing the grenades a bit this part right here ruins this idea for me. Lag and hit registration is already enough of a random factor for me, if this were implemented I wouldn't be able to play soldat anymore.

If you're all for a nerf, then why wouldnt you be able to live with nerfed nades? It's not like they're going to misreg. It just means that if a player doesn't time his throws properly and throws grenades ignorantly like they do now, then they're going to have to rely on a random bit of luck that they threw it just in time for it to hit someone. If you're smart and come to memorize how long it takes for the grenade to explode in conjunction with how fast a grenade is thrown and how long it takes to reach from point A to point B before it explodes, then you will most likely be better than every single grenadier currently, because you will be able to accomplish just as much as they can now where the lack of skill is completely subbed out for intelligence, thus giving you an advantage and rewarding you for superior intellect, skill,  patience and aim, this not being the case currently.

Can I see a demo so I know exactly what you mean by 'spam'?

Heh, I'll demo the next SCTFL match I play in. I could go ahead and dig through my hundreds of demos and find a match where grenades are especially overpowered looking, but that would just disprove my own argument. I'll post it as soon as I play my next match.

[Warchild]

The more the word luck is used the more I dislike it, haha. And if you factor in lag to a timed grenade who knows what the result would be. Sounds scary to me.