Grenades - Need to be nerfed

[STM1993]

The whole point about this grenade debate actually revolves on one simple thing: People want to kill as fast as possible. 1-hit kills are counted as the fastest way of killing because you don't have to engage in a battle for very long, you just finish it just as quickly as it begins. But the typical 1-hit kill weapons are pretty slow in a sense because they have pretty long reloads.

Grenades are special in this sense. They may not kill in one-hit, yet when thrown at the leg of the enemy, it can kill instantly. In addition, when grenades are used together with any appropriate gun (usually Autos), it helps the user gain a quick 1-hit kill (or almost), whether it is actually the grenade and the gun that kills. Also, grenades can be thrown pretty fast, though the faster, the slower and less distance the grenade travels. But then again, such methods of killing normally happen at close-range, so the throwing of the grenade can be pretty fast.

Grenades are support weapons, but they are neither primary nor secondary weapons, they're actually bonuses, like the Flamer etc, only difference is that they spawn as frequently as the medkits and basically everyone has access to them. Everything is in a way equal, now the only factors are the map and how the player uses the grenades.



I think the reason why some people may call for a nerf is because people have been to reliant on the grenades. Now that the guns aren't as strong, people rely a lot more on their grenades. Actually, the solution would have been to buff the weapons, but the weapons balance is still in the midst of rebalancing. Take a look, from 1.2.1 (where everything was super powerful but unbalanced), (almost) every weapon was super nerfed to 1.3.0, then now it's moving back up with a more balanced weapon balance. Eventually when everything's balanced again, everything will definitely be re-buffed until the weapons are as powerful as the 1.2.1 weapons except that it'd be balanced, ensuring fast-paced action. Grenades wouldn't be used as often afterwards now that the guns can kill so quickly, there isn't much of a use to waste such a good equipment if you could kill so quickly. I don't really see a need to nerf the nades as a result, but if it really must be it's just a minor damage decrease and a little more self-damage.

The only thing that I really think needs to be changed about Soldat is that the Barret should have its delay removed, AND it should be weakened so that if you want to get a 1-shot kill you have to actually hit the enemy in the head or a vital organ. I don't think it makes sense that you die from a shot to the tip of your foot. However, it's a Barret, so it needs to be powerful. This is partially why I think Soldat's sniper rifle should be something other than a Barret(also because a real one is extremely heavy and has an assload of recoil. It's not something you want to be lugging around with you all day, and I'm pretty sure you have to shoot it lying down unless you want to get knocked on your ass). Then again, we shouldn't really have a minigun either. Anyway, the point is that the delay pisses me off. I understand why they did it, but I think they could have gone about changing the Barret in a better way.

The Barrett was extremely overpowered without the delay. It's too easy to shoot it, it's like a M79 which is just point-and-click, but even more deadly because it has long range, high bullet speed and easy to aim.

I don't know if there is any other way to balance the Barrett. Lowering the damage would make it more like a Ruger 77, and no one would use the Barrett because it isn't really a 1-hitter. Even if it can still kill in 1-hit as long as it doesn't hit the leg, those with pretty good aiming won't find it much of a difference. It's still point-and-click, and plus, I don't believe anyone would run around completely uninjured. Make it too slow, it becomes more like a LAW and is not strong enough to even be called an actual Primary.

Although I noticed something: It's very difficult to try and use the Barrett in realistic while moving around. The movementacc in Realistic is 8 instead of 7. I found my shots going off a little more. This shows that movementacc is still existent just that it is greatly reduced when you are floating in the air.

But I believe adding the delay was a good way to balance it. It still retains everything about the Barrett, just that it is no longer another silly point-and-click gun, and people have respected this Barrett.

[excruciator]

Jerich, I just HAVE to connect all the dots for you.

People tries to kill as fast as possible. Great. Gun can't achieve that, nade can with difficulty, while gun + nade does it very efficiently. Now, does that make nade keystone in kill-fast process, the process that every soldat player tries to achieve? and does that KEY property makes nades the main, and make the gun COMPLEMENT the nade?
(too many dumb people around these days..)

Yes no duh, if given the choice people would go for it, BECAUSE nade are the key. If the gun was a stand alone powerhouse such as the nade, the choice would be...neutral, so its more of a could than should. More would than got. Geed eet?

Everyone start with it arguement. Well, if the number are indeed a problem(like you mentioned), and is indeed detrimental that balance out nade, wouldn't nade not be the #1 killer? If number truely makes it balanced, then it would just be an above average weapon. But that certainly not the case..

Dont contradict your own points next time...

You gotta teach me how to read between the lines like that... Where did you get that "I think that change will be detrimental for soldat come from"

Well, give me a change to prove my point and I will throw you my alternatives.

You viewpoint is not neutral if you reject most of my points. Judging from this, don't vote as you will pick an extreme-rightwing thinking that it was neutral party.

STM:
A bonus that acts as a prime, I would classify that as a prime.

Sure, if we are talking about player vs player, yes it could be fair. But in term of weapon vs nade, its not fair at all. Since we are talking about weapon balance not player balance, I believe the proper comparison is weapon vs weapon, not player vs player.

Date Posted: October 02, 2008, 12:06:46 pmSDFilm, be realistic, soldat is a fast paced game, we can all agree on that, so would nade really need to last in a long fire fight to be overpowered? Does a weapon needs to be good at everything to be considered overpowered? NO.

If a weapon in its niche is a better competitor than other weapon in the same niche, its overpowered. Nade does needs to beat ret to be overpowered.

Rushing nade in the face is the standard ctf tactics. Sure it gives everyone a chance but it makes gunning skill matter less and less while makes the important of nades skyrocket, again, overpowering weapon in terms of damage and importance.

[Ziem]

Ok then, even if its used like a fecking primary, everyone has equal access to them.
And they're more powerful than primaries? So what? So it's time to learn how to nade. It's Soldat.

[excruciator]

Ok then, even if its used like a fecking primary, everyone has equal access to them.
And they're more powerful than primaries? So what? So it's time to learn how to nade. It's Soldat.

So what?

Thats where the weapon is not balanced, and thats where nerf comes in...

chances are you want the nades the same(like everyone else) then the prime would have to be boosted. This essencially would make the game more realistic(not saying that its, good, or it should be that way, it would just encorporate more realism)

Or incorporate more self damage, 100% if possible.

Last solution is to incorporate a detonation timer, before that time, if the nade strikes the target, it would just go through the target, leaving him unharmed. If striken after, then the nade would explode as usual.

[SDFilm]

It's not so much the fact that everyone has them that makes them balanced (though that certainly helps), it's that you have a limited amount of them and you need to throw them at close range. If nades had the range and arc as the Barret or even just a Steyr, then they'd certainly be overpowered and would make primaries more like secondaries, reducing Soldat to a game of 'snipe with the nade first to win'.

You could argue that it's already like that; but you normally need to get in close to use them effectively, and you have to risk getting into close range with your opponent- which means weapons like Deagles and MP5s doing more damage (they get a better percentage gain when firing at point-blank), newbs aiming better at that range, knifeing and counter-nadeing. It can be better to save them for a situation where you need them. I mean, you could go in to try to get a fast kill with them, or (though I'm speaking as a Minimier here) you could pelt them with bullets, perhaps chancing a mid-close range throw if they persue you. Or save your nades for laying mines or chucking them down/over some terrain to kill someone without needing line-of-sight just before charging in. Though my main (and pretty-much only) problem with nades is when the server rapidly spawns nade packs so that you don't really need to think about when you use your nades. Though of course, that's an issue with the server rather than the nades themselves.

SDFilm, be realistic, soldat is a fast paced game, we can all agree on that, so would nade really need to last in a long fire fight to be overpowered? Does a weapon needs to be good at everything to be considered overpowered? NO.

If a weapon in its niche is a better competitor than other weapon in the same niche, its overpowered. Nade does needs to beat ret to be overpowered.

Rushing nade in the face is the standard ctf tactics. Sure it gives everyone a chance but it makes gunning skill matter less and less while makes the important of nades skyrocket, again, overpowering weapon in terms of damage and importance.

What are you trying to say here? You're just saying generic statements and insinuating that I mean the opposite. I never once said that a weapon is only overpowered when it's good at everything.

And yes, nades can be hell if you're defending a relatively small position in-base- that's one of their basic uses.

SDFilm, be realistic

Excuse me?

[excruciator]

You are exactly right, right now, the game is basically who snipes with nade first wins. But we are trying to unreduce that.

all tactics you described are build around the nading. Which again, actually shows the importance of nade in the game and the drift in tatics as opposed to the diversity you are implying.

Server has a say in the matter but, we are trying to lower the nades potencial. And only way to do that is to solve the problem from the core. By nerfing it.

And about the quote(people keep asking to be smacked with insights just when I thought I couldn't make my point more obvious)

Indeed- grenades are a specialised auxillery weapon- can really kick ass, but only in some (though not rare) situations and won't last you through a prolonged firefight. Where as Primary weapons are (generally speaking) more versatile, has a greater range and unlimited ammo.

Nades are in between secondary and primary weapons; while not as relyible as primaries, they don't have quite as much drawbacks as seconderies. Being a 'glass cannon' weapon, you'd have to be very skilled to use ONLY nades in a game and win. Though especialy with rapidly spawning nade packs, it's certainly not impossible, due to their strength.

Although the one thing that makes nades cheap is almost M79-like rushing nade-in-your-face. Though this isn't as bad as the M79, since its limited and everyone has the same chance. Though the planned reduce in bullet-push could make this rushing tactic all the more effective.

You mentioned a bunch of drawbacks of nades. Sure there are drawbacks but...

so would nade really need to last in a long fire fight to be overpowered? Does a weapon needs to be good at everything to be considered overpowered? NO.

And by saying the fact that the game is fast paced negate the need of the prolonged firefight, as you mentioned.

also, rushing is not defending a small position.

[SDFilm]

I mentioned the nade's disadvantages because that's how they fit in the game. Since a disadvantage has to effect the weapon's overall effectiveness and application, rather than something like 'nukes are balanced because they suck in close-combat'. The disadvantages of the nade makes it balanced (though like everything, not perfect). Though being an auxiliary weapon rather than a secondary one, the nade gives you more flexibility if you have it. It's powerfull enough to punish you for using them all up when your opponent hasn't, but not so powerfull as to make primary weapons secondary ones.

also, rushing is not defending a small position.

I meant rushing into a small defencive position. Nades are practically made for that purpose.

[excruciator]

I mentioned the nade's disadvantages because that's how they fit in the game. Since a disadvantage has to effect the weapon's overall effectiveness and application, rather than something like 'nukes are balanced because they suck in close-combat'. The disadvantages of the nade makes it balanced (though like everything, not perfect). Though being an auxiliary weapon rather than a secondary one, the nade gives you more flexibility if you have it. It's powerfull enough to punish you for using them all up when your opponent hasn't, but not so powerfull as to make primary weapons secondary ones.

also, rushing is not defending a small position.

I meant rushing into a small defencive position. Nades are practically made for that purpose.

yep, keystone, importance outweight primaries, power outweight primaries, need nerf.

As for the disadvantages, well

If a weapon in its niche is a better competitor than other weapon in the same niche, its overpowered. Nade does needs to beat ret to be overpowered.

Well, the nade is better than every other weapon at close range and midrange. Since most of the primes fall into that category, I'd say they are better at everything.

Nerf...required...

[Mallow007]

....if i remember well SOLDAT is about WAR...right?, well when was the last time u saw people in war killing themselfs with nades more than the GUNS? it should be a game based in weapons no in nades since is a WAR game....nades in soldat are perfect but is the most using killing Weapons is snag and i think that is wrong.

I´ve seen another  games like Halo. Cod,unreal tournament, and IS NOT ABOUT NADING...ppl in soldat actually trow NADES before they shot to get a cheap kill even if ur not in there screen...and i think that's fuked i mean is cool some times and i agree more with that in a 3d game when u can hide the nade behind a wall or something but in soldat...is jut like not right.

Of course  i use nades a lot too and i dont complain when i get a random nade to hit is someone´s face but thinking about it is just LAME to nade spawn or to trow all nades randomly to see it a guy get caught in the middle and get himself killed.

I think the nades should be nerfed,like in the past versions of soldat

[Magus86]

I've seen plenty of grenade spamming in other games... I've also seen others in which it doesn't happen as much or at all, simply because you can't pick them up on the battlefield, they're much more scarce, or they don't explode upon impact... If they do, it happens when they impact the ground as well, and it's more difficult to hit someone in the face with one than it is in soldat.

About the Barret... Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting it should go back to the way it was with absolutely EVERYBODY using the Barret(by the way, thank god for nerfing the chainsaw. I hated that too, back in the day). I hated that even more... but the way it is now, I hate the Barret and barely use it at all. In my Rogue Spear mod, I reduced its damage(and made it into a Dragunov) enough so that one shot CAN kill, but won't always. And without the delay, a follow up shot is much easier. It's like the ruger, but it does a bit more damage and has a scope, plus a higher mag capacity. In addition, I also added some movementacc and recoil so it's more realistic and not so easy to kill people with it. Also, you can't be running/flying around like a crazy mofo and kill people with it. Snipers are supposed to hide for a while, take a shot, and get the hell out, not run and gun. I also changed the ruger to an M-16 with less damage, faster rate of fire, and more ammo.

I get why the weapons are the way they are. The way default Soldat has them makes them less similar to one another, and that's fine. I just hate the way the Barret is, and I know not everybody else wants to play the way I do. So, it's really not that big of a deal.

And by the way... To those of you who are complaining about the grenades, did it ever occur to any of you to just change them in the weapons.ini file if you're unhappy with them?? That's what I did, and it's not that hard. In fact, I think I'll do that right now myself...

Here's how my Dragunov looks, in case anybody's interested.

[Barret M82A1]
Damage=265
FireInterval=75
Ammo=10
ReloadTime=200
Speed=550
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=40
MovementAcc=6
Recoil=5

[jerich]

THANK YOU SDFILM.

I take back my statement that I'm not going to reply.

Jerich, I just HAVE to connect all the dots for you.

People tries to kill as fast as possible. Great. Gun can't achieve that, nade can with difficulty, while gun + nade does it very efficiently. Now, does that make nade keystone in kill-fast process, the process that every soldat player tries to achieve? and does that KEY property makes nades the main, and make the gun COMPLEMENT the nade?
(too many dumb people around these days..)

Most of your run-on sentences and fragment sentences make it difficult for me to connect the dots. Anyways, grenades can kill faster in LIMITED situations(for the 4th time), again making this only apply in LIMITED circumstances. The nade compliments the primary majority of time whereas the gun compliments the grenades in very specialized situations. That's fairly balanced.

Yes no duh, if given the choice people would go for it, BECAUSE nade are the key. If the gun was a stand alone powerhouse such as the nade, the choice would be...neutral, so its more of a could than should. More would than got. Geed eet?

As I said, people choose it because it's another weapon they can use. Nade is an advantage, not THE KEY. If the grenade was such a powerhouse, then why don't I see people just using the grenades only. If anyone had a choice to use either grenades or primaries by itself in any game, a lot, if not all people would choose the primary. And taunting me doesn't help your argument at all. All arguments should focus on the topic at hand, not a sarcastic Geed eet? Just a word of advice. Remember, I'm trying to disprove your points, not attack you. That goes for your calling people dumb comment also.

Everyone start with it arguement. Well, if the number are indeed a problem(like you mentioned), and is indeed detrimental that balance out nade, wouldn't nade not be the #1 killer? If number truely makes it balanced, then it would just be an above average weapon. But that certainly not the case..

(When writing an argument, at least make it easy to comprehend(it really does help your argument). This is all run-on's and fragments and hard to understand. Again, I'll try to answer it anyways.)

Although, I'm happy and content with this balance, number could be a problem because of the ability to restock easily. Why? It's because of bad nade placements or even the fact that grenades spawns immediately after restocking. And that is why grenades are the #1 killer. Most of the grenade killing is all from spamming in the base because most of the grenade spawns are in the base itself, making easy to spam incoming enemies. A defender has a lot better chance of avoiding a rusher with a full set of nades so I don't think there's a problem there. If one gets killed by nades by a rusher, it's because the player is either inexperienced or badly positioned making them vulnerable to grenades, not because the grenade is overpowered.
 

Dont contradict your own points next time...

I've been pretty staightforward with my argument, please tell me where I have contradicted.

You gotta teach me how to read between the lines like that... Where did you get that "I think that change will be detrimental for soldat come from"

You said the grenade change would survive another change. Survive implying that this balance has to go through some negative impact. Another change like nerfing the grenades would be another detriment to soldat.

Well, give me a change to prove my point and I will throw you my alternatives.

Why the hell would I try to prove your point? You're the one that's supposed to be proving your points and giving us alternatives. I don't have to throw any alternatives because I'm happy with this balance. You're the one complaining of the balance, so with all your points(which I still think is fragile), why don't you actually enlighten us with your alternatives instead of continuing this ongoing circular argument.

You viewpoint is not neutral if you reject most of my points.

I was neutral, until your points shifted me over against this idea.

Read what I wrote. I said I WAS neutral, but you made me shift against this idea.


Instead of you just saying the same thing back to me, just give us the alternatives. I know that most debater's egos would just keep them argueing.  I really want to hear solutions rather than circling this again.

[Lapis Lazuli]

I mentioned the nade's disadvantages because that's how they fit in the game. Since a disadvantage has to effect the weapon's overall effectiveness and application, rather than something like 'nukes are balanced because they suck in close-combat'. The disadvantages of the nade makes it balanced (though like everything, not perfect). Though being an auxiliary weapon rather than a secondary one, the nade gives you more flexibility if you have it. It's powerfull enough to punish you for using them all up when your opponent hasn't, but not so powerfull as to make primary weapons secondary ones.

also, rushing is not defending a small position.

I meant rushing into a small defencive position. Nades are practically made for that purpose.

yep, keystone, importance outweight primaries, power outweight primaries, need nerf.

As for the disadvantages, well

If a weapon in its niche is a better competitor than other weapon in the same niche, its overpowered. Nade does needs to beat ret to be overpowered.

Well, the nade is better than every other weapon at close range and midrange. Since most of the primes fall into that category, I'd say they are better at everything.

Nerf...required...

Grenades don't need to be nerfed. You need to learn to include them into your strategy and play on the same level as everyone else, instead of limiting yourself by believing that grenades are overpowered. They only instakill if they hit a Soldat's feet. They can't be reloaded, except via grenade kits which may be entirely disabled on a server. Server variables allow for any number of grenades as well. The point is, grenades are a partially renewable resource which have a limited amount of functionality - they are short range weapons that can provide a strategic advantage. They are not, and never were meant to be, a primary weapon. This does not make them overpowered either. Look at the LAW. It is not a primary and can do intense damage, even scoring instakills. And it shoots long-range, and can be reloaded!

What I'm saying is, for each and every point you may offer, there's a counterpoint that can be said. Grenades have been fine for a long time, and if you find them to be too powerful, adjust your strategy because it's obviously failing you and causing you to experience the receiving end of a grenade a little too often.

I've never been upset about getting killed by a grenade because they take skill and strategy to use. Either that, or I've blundered my own way into one. They are certainly not overpowered.

If they are, then so are medkits, because they respawn and refill your health! Oh my God, they should all be nerfed! And weapons you pickup too, because they're dropped by all Soldats! Those should be nerfed, so that they only have one clip, otherwise they're too powerful because they shoot bullets a lot. [/sarcasm]

[STM1993]

And by the way... To those of you who are complaining about the grenades, did it ever occur to any of you to just change them in the weapons.ini file if you're unhappy with them?? That's what I did, and it's not that hard. In fact, I think I'll do that right now myself...

Well, weapon.ini is made from the server, the server won't load your weapon.ini , so it won't work online. But everyone prefers to play the way it is by default as much as they may hate it (unless the balance is genuinely over-unbalanced).

Here's how my Dragunov looks, in case anybody's interested.

[Barret M82A1]
Damage=265
FireInterval=75
Ammo=10
ReloadTime=200
Speed=550
BulletStyle=1
StartUpTime=0
Bink=40
MovementAcc=6
Recoil=5

I think it'd be better to bring it to a topic on the Barrett.

Anyway, there are some wrong stats in there. The movementacc is 6, which is 1 less than the original Barrett (7), so actually the movementacc is less. In realistic mode, the movementacc is 8. The lower the movementacc the more accurate while moving. The bink can be increased a bit more.

[The Geologist]

You are exactly right, right now, the game is basically who snipes with nade first wins. But we are trying to unreduce that.

Speaking in the third person now?

This circular argument is really going nowhere.  Kind of like a broken record.  One sitting on top of a high horse. 

[excruciator]

You are exactly right, right now, the game is basically who snipes with nade first wins. But we are trying to unreduce that.

Speaking in the third person now?

This circular argument is really going nowhere.  Kind of like a broken record.  One sitting on top of a high horse. 

Tell me about it. When I say, that is the case, people (jerich in particular) keeps tossing me the same stuff over and over again, even with the same wording.
Normally you should stop using the same point when people countered it.

QUOTE:

Perhaps the situations are limited (such as nade from under, and rushing, two out of 100s of possible situations), but if these situations appears often, then I don't think they are limited. Point dismissed.

That was from Page 13...And you keep telling me that I use the point over and over again. NO DUH. People keep telling me the same thing over again..

Im going to expand it a little, if nade ONLY works(which it doesn't, but by saying so it makes my life easier) for rushing and base raid, eventhough there are defending, sneaking spawning etc... Limited situation all right? But if in a ctf game we rush and raid all the time, that is not limited.

Also I gave the alternatives already, I don't want to say the same stuff over again, so you better start lurking.

You could say that surviving could be detrimental to soldat, but I meant that it will be detrimental to nadesexuals. We don't need too many swinging that way anyways.

If you say the number are not the problem because of restocking or for whatever other reason, then you completely contradicted your previous point that you said the number was a prob.

As for the communication problem.. well, Sorry, I'm just bad at explaining stuff, and I try to give my thought process to enhance comprehension. Just ask for clarification if you think a point is enlightening the obvious.

Lap' Dog ( did I say dog? I meant doug..)
Again, you point makes me repeat one of my previous point. If everyone has nades, its balanced in the player's view. But not prime vs nade. as long as someone carries nade, it will become functionally a prime. (again, I changed my wording, the point is still the same)

True, there are infinite number of counter point, but what is happening here, my counter point counter's other people's counter point, which in turn, is thrown back and believed to counter my counter point. I have no idea how it got this far.

If you had the ability to carry 3 medpacks, I would whine about that also, but it's quite balanced. Eventhough there are a lot of medpacks, but the uses are TRULY LIMITED as
the medpack is only present at specific spawnpoints and it cannot be carried.

But interesting comparison though. A bonus that can heal you to full health cannot ca carried around and the spawn is more limited, a bonus that can kill you can be carried and used to kill up to three people is less limited.


Date Posted: October 03, 2008, 09:05:55 amAlso STM, you should start a thread about that.

[jerich]

Tell me about it. When I say, that is the case, people (jerich in particular) keeps tossing me the same stuff over and over again, even with the same wording.
Normally you should stop using the same point when people countered it.

1. And the same can be said about you. You have been reitterating what you have said.

2. But the difference between your argument and my argument is that I actually got support back because although I'm throwing the same points, I believe I'm throwing the stronger points. Not once in the past few days have I seen 1 person side with you. Maybe, besides the fact we have been broken records the past few days, your argument is not strong enough for people to believe that the nade should be nerfed.

3. Another difference between our argument is that you argue about grenades only when the grenades seem to be overpowered thus making it seem you have a strong argument against it. I, on the other hand, talk about all aspects of the grenades, with all the pros and cons.

Perhaps the situations are limited (such as nade from under, and rushing, two out of 100s of possible situations), but if these situations appears often, then I don't think they are limited. Point dismissed.

1. Before I address this point, when anybody says point dimissed, it is either because they are insecure about their point, or they are just too over confident.

2. It is in fact limited. The grenades powerful capabilities only are applicable in close range. Just because you are rushing, doesn't mean you are close to your enemy, thus making the grenade being ineffective until they are close. The possibilies are more wide-ranged than just rushing, other factors can include size of the map, number of routes, how many players, etc..


For the next thing, I'm gonna put this argument in chronological order.

excrutiator: The whole point of with or without nade is to prove that if you were given the choice, you would go for the nades.

No duh. No one is that retarded. Anyone would add another dimension to their offensive capabilities if they were given the choice. I could say the same thing. If you were given a chouce to play with or without a primary, you would go for the primary.

Yes no duh, if given the choice people would go for it, BECAUSE nade are the key. If the gun was a stand alone powerhouse such as the nade, the choice would be...neutral, so its more of a could than should. More would than got. Geed eet?

As I said, people choose it because it's another weapon they can use. Nade is an advantage, not THE KEY. If the grenade was such a powerhouse, then why don't I see people just using the grenades only. If anyone had a choice to use either grenades or primaries by itself in any game, a lot, if not all people would choose the primary. And taunting me doesn't help your argument at all. All arguments should focus on the topic at hand, not a sarcastic Geed eet? Just a word of advice. Remember, I'm trying to disprove your points, not attack you. That goes for your calling people dumb comment also.

That was from Page 13...And you keep telling me that I use the point over and over again. NO DUH. People keep telling me the same thing over again..

Is it just me or did you to argue against me with some excuse that NADE is the KEY, then revert back to saying that all that I been saying is obvious. Why do you keep switching sides?

Im going to expand it a little, if nade ONLY works(which it doesn't, but by saying so it makes my life easier) for rushing and base raid, eventhough there are defending, sneaking spawning etc... Limited situation all right? But if in a ctf game we rush and raid all the time, that is not limited.

Already answered but here is is again.
2. It is in fact limited. The grenades powerful capabilities only are applicable in close range. Just because you are rushing, doesn't mean you are close to your enemy, thus making the grenade being ineffective until they are close. The possibilies are more wide-ranged than just rushing, other factors can include size of the map, number of routes, how many players, etc..

Also I gave the alternatives already, I don't want to say the same stuff over again, so you better start lurking.

1.Well, since you have been a saying the same stuff over and over again, you might as well list your alternatives.

2. Obviously your alternatives aren't that great, since everyone is basically still not siding with you. So if you have a great idea that can change any of our minds, I suggest you restate it.

You could say that surviving could be detrimental to soldat, but I meant that it will be detrimental to nadesexuals. We don't need too many swinging that way anyways.

Just because it will detriment nade-lovers, doesn't mean it will affect all of us. Sure, the nade-lovers will be upset, but everyone has to readjust therefore making soldat as a whole detrimented.

If you say the number are not the problem because of restocking or for whatever other reason, then you completely contradicted your previous point that you said the number was a prob.

Honestly, man, this is like the 4th time. Read my post thoroughly because I make sure it's comprehendable to everyone.

...number could be a problem because of the ability to restock easily. Why? It's because of...

I am not contradicting myself. I am supporting myself with the fact that since it's so easy to restock, the number is a problem because you will have grenades more often than not. Please read it carefully next time.

As for the communication problem.. well, Sorry, I'm just bad at explaining stuff, and I try to give my thought process to enhance comprehension. Just ask for clarification if you think a point is enlightening the obvious.

That's perfectly fine. I do ask for clarification and you do clarify it for me to respond.


Here's 2 things you can do.
A) Give us GOOD solutions and why, and don't give us complaints and flaws.
B) Take that one guy's advice and make a poll of this, and it will show how much effort you might be wasting defending this topic.

[Magus86]

And by the way... To those of you who are complaining about the grenades, did it ever occur to any of you to just change them in the weapons.ini file if you're unhappy with them?? That's what I did, and it's not that hard. In fact, I think I'll do that right now myself...

Well, weapon.ini is made from the server, the server won't load your weapon.ini , so it won't work online. But everyone prefers to play the way it is by default as much as they may hate it (unless the balance is genuinely over-unbalanced).

Anyway, there are some wrong stats in there. The movementacc is 6, which is 1 less than the original Barrett (7), so actually the movementacc is less. In realistic mode, the movementacc is 8. The lower the movementacc the more accurate while moving. The bink can be increased a bit more.

Oh, the weapons.ini will work online as long as the server is using that .ini. So if this really is such a problem, it can be tweaked to his liking. if nobody joins his server after a while, then nobody wants to play like he does. We don't need to change it for everyone because a few people don't like it.

As far as my barret stats are concerned, it works fine for me the way it is. I could have sworn i increased the movementacc, but I guess not... or maybe I had to change it again while tweaking.

[croat1gamer]

well, instead sazing something that you guys will kill with your arguments within seconds, i will take the other side

the weapons vs nade (were looking for a weps user, no a nade user)
the nade has a small range, when standing, any auto will kill u within seconds cause the nade has small, and weps small, mid od large range
well, thats when weps wins

but if the nader rushes, the nade expands its range, to mid, then its harder to win
but, the bullet push comes here in handy, if you see a nader first, you need to deliver a steady stream of bullets to slow him down, and nade will loose its range
now id like to see how would it be with 1.5 cause of reduced bullet push

but if you fail at that, you can still  do two thigs:
prone, so the nade hits u in head, and you have still some health, and lay bullets at the nader, hopefully he doesnt have an auto
backflip, its the ultimate way to avoid the nade, you just jump over it and return fire, but hoping you wont be killed by the enemys fire
any other ways by me have failed, only against noobs there is a chance that you will manage to jump fast back, so it doesnt hit u

in realistic, you have small chances, cause if head, its usually instant kill
also the backflip on open space, and no coliders, you will jump back at the nade, so no chance
there is the only way to use a small recoil auto and push the enemy back
the other problem at realistic is the huge push which nade produces, and you wont be usually killed by nade, but by the realismus which will push u in ground

the only way by me would be to reduce the amout of nades available to carry, reduce the respawn rate of nade boxes, or reduce the amount of nades which you get with 1 nade box
this has been sugessted even before, i like the idea 1 nade per 1 nade box

[jerich]

but if the nader rushes, the nade expands its range, to mid, then its harder to win

The problem that excrutiator keeps on stating is that grenades have the highest DPS and highest firing rate. That is only achieved though by throwing under the legs. That means you have to get close. When you rush, you're grenade does not throw far enough to have mid-range attributes whether your standing or rushing to get to the enemy. It is still close range either way. The reason you think it is mid range power is because the player is getting closer, making the grenade more likely to reach the player. And even with that, you have to be somewhat skilled at throwing the grenade at legs consistently. That's been a fair balance for quite a long time.

The rest of your argument shows how much the grenade is balanced rather than unbalanced, but nice attempt at siding with excrutiator though.

[croat1gamer]

The rest of your argument shows how much the grenade is balanced rather than unbalanced, but nice attempt at siding with excrutiator though.

well, thats kinda ironic, cause i wanted to avoid to do any arguments against them both (excrutiator & stm)

btw. it actually can fly to mid range
do the following:
run on a mid/low step hill (downhill ofcourse), and throw nade, then imediately make a backspin, it seems for me then that its flying wider, but it might just be the backflip, which returns u back, so the nade flys same, but backspin places u back
note* in realistic, low/no jets