Grenades - Need to be nerfed

[Hair|Trigger]

Grenades need to be nerfed in my opinion, yea

they are particularly annoying, right after you pull off a firefight, and you go to advance and at some stage somebody has spammed one-too-many nades and you end up stepping on the leftovers, sometimes even your own.

I think the best thing to do is put some kind of spacing between nade throws*, not cocking them or any realistic poo, just a small interval between when you can throw nades.  It's relatively easy to spam nades, as long as you're concentrating on the flow of your throws, you can drop a stream of the little bratwursts over the battlefield, like iron bombs over Vietnam. or plant 5-6 of them at your feet in a 2 second window and then duck off quickly leaving them there for any approaching rushers.

these things seem to be pretty unfair when you take into consideration the nade's intended use as a tactical weapon.


*The spacing simply cannot be similar to fireinterval [this would kill the game totally], it needs to be something dynamic, something tricky, but effective.  maybe a random firienterval is generated (between 0 and a very short ammount of time of course) every time you go to throw a grenade. or maybe something to do with the use of nades around gunfire.  I dont know. 

[STM1993]

The real issue about the grenades is actually at close range, because they make close-ranged weapons kind of underpowered - especially when you spam. But the problem is, what if there are no grenades or if it is survival? Then we can't possibly buff the close-ranged weapons too much or they would end up overpowered. In realistic the grenades are balanced because all other guns do as much damage. But Normal is nowhere close to Realistic - the weapons do far less damage.

I believe grenades are overpowered - but the problem is that it is a tactical equipment that everyone has and weakening it is going to make Soldat slower. But our main objective is actually to make Soldat fast-paced like it was in 1.2.1, but not as unbalanced as it was. That's why I think it is relatively okay for the moment, but it could use a nerf, possibly one on damage. At least for now, when the weapons are not ready to be super buffed together in a balanced manner.



But if it is really necessary, should we add a delay before we can throw a second grenade rather than each grenade taking a longer time to throw? I mean, the grenades should be able to be dropped very quickly like it is now and throwing it far away should take a long time like it is now, but we don't want any spamming. Perhaps we should also fix the bug in which you could keep throwing a nade by holding down the throw grenade button while reloading a weapon.

[-Major-]

the nades have a VERY limited range

Wrong.

Nade speed stacks with player speed, giving the nade a little more than 50% screen distance range, on top of how easy it is to get close to some one. They have a very WIDE range.

wow you've seriously never naded , the players speed is not that high, here you clearly shows how wrong you are, also the nade is a charge attack, which gives your opponent plently of time to stop you.

and the nades are mostly eaten. this especially applies to czech and polish players.

and everyone does in fact have nades. and at this point the guns are somewhat balacned

Just because everyone uses them, that doesn't mean that they are not retardedly strong. This point has pretty much 0 validity within this topic. It's the balance of the game in it's entirety. The guns aren't balanced enough, and I can give you a bunch of situations that supplement other weapons like crutches and make them extremely versatile in situations they should NOT be superior.

I'm going to keep replying for as long as there are people with these misconceptions of the reality. I'll avoid an opinion debate as much as possible, but for the mean time I'm going to keep making replies against bias.

please read the whole post before quoting, you clearly skipped the part where I said the weapons are balanced to the nades.

and please, tell me what part of this discussion is not by your own opinion. if the game is created to have powerful nades then they ought to be powerful. now here comes your opinion that they should be weak, which changes the game idea completly, and is only to satisfy you.

The ultimate decision is opinion based, but a lot of the facts that have been made up to support those opinions are BS, so I'm just going to keep disproving them until I finally bring it down to the bare bone fact that people just want to keep grenades OP cause they like it that way. Not because "everyone can use them."

here again you tell us that your doing this because you want soldat to be gunning based. go and make your own game instead.

[Extacide]

wow you've seriously never naded , the players speed is not that high, here you clearly shows how wrong you are, also the nade is a charge attack, which gives your opponent plently of time to stop you.

Care to 1v1? I'll show you how far they throw, if you have actually never seen it. You seriously are wrong. The grenades can go very far; A player charging at full speed without a boost is fast enough to lob it 60% screen distance, and that only takes a few seconds running out of base to attain that speed. It doesn't even take a second to charge it up. To even say that people don't have enough time to throw a grenade and use them like they do is like a slap in the face to my thousands of clan matches completely contradicted. In fact, I just proved you wrong in the latest gather when I threw a grenade straight up at the maximum possible distance without boosting, and it floated and hit a guy as he came down. It was at least 65% of the screen distance, so again, you = wrong.

here again you tell us that your doing this because you want soldat to be gunning based. go and make your own game instead.

Yes, that is EXACTLY what I am doing. I am dispelling supportive arguments until its down to an opinion base. I never said pure gunning base however, I said a game where the guns meant more than grenades. Why don't you stop telling other people to make their own game as an argument, because any validity of your arguments by saying that has been thrown straight out the window.

please read the whole post before quoting, you clearly skipped the part where I said the weapons are balanced to the nades.

And no, they are not. I can pull out 9-10 situations where the grenades make other weapons unbalanced in situations they should not be, in situations where they should be inferior to another weapon but get help by grenades, and how it breaks down every single weapon to the point theres almost no diversity in different situations when the difference is the grenade. No, that is completely wrong. Grenades do more damage than weapons in the long run in every match and are easy to perfect when it comes to hitting people with them. When it comes to grenade vs weapon, they tilt the scales a LOT, making your statement invalid.

And no Geologist, when I say people who want to keep the grenades over powered, I mean the people who want to keep them overpowered, not everybody. Two different terms. And the last comment was sarcasm, to emphasize the opinion. At this point this hasn't been much of an opinion battle, rather saying that grenades aren't that strong and that they aren't as useful as I make them out to be. This is completely wrong. Whether or not they should be like this however, is a different argument entirely and falls within the conundrum of an opinion.

they are particularly annoying, right after you pull off a firefight, and you go to advance and at some stage somebody has spammed one-too-many nades and you end up stepping on the leftovers, sometimes even your own.

While grenades posing as land mines is somewhat an annoyance, this doesn't really have anything to do with what I've been trying to prove, other then that they are easily spammed (a separate point I can agree with you though, however) It's more or less the fact that they are easily thrown into other peoples' faces and explode on contact, dealing MASSIVE damage.

Edit:

I'm tempted to record a demo of an entire match, follow myself, and high light every single time grenades dominate, because it would be 75% of the time. I could go further and follow the entire match when any grenade makes a difference from any player's point of view. I should do that, because a lot of people are too used to grenades to even notice how much of a difference they make, and how much more effective they are than the freaking guns themselves.

[-Major-]

Extacide... this is like saying, I want Lineage II to have a combat system like WoW.

and you don't get stunned when your opponent have thorwed the nade. try to only use grenades ones. and ofc the inferior weapon should get an advantage if nades are combined.

[Extacide]

Extacide... this is like saying, I want Lineage II to have a combat system like WoW.

I don't know, the L2 combat system in my opinion is one of the best point/click aside from RO. The targeting is kind of gay in crowds but after shredding through crowds as a glad you get used to it. Soldat used to be the way I described by the way, it's not like I'm trying to preach some totally new concept. However, I'm not asking for the gun balance to be buffed two fold in compensation. I just would like to see a little less grenade use and a little more use of guns which it comes to making a kill. It's not like guns are horridly underpowered in comparison to the old balances without the grenade buffs. It would actually force more team work and stop making players reliant on making big plays with grenades. -_-

So you are saying that a ruger, a defensive weapon with second best range as opposed to the spas, the dominant close range sweeper with the second worst range. The ruger is the obvious winner in any range match with the spas, but the ruger should be able to have an equal edge in fighting the spas up close as well, which in any normal situation would be thrashed, with the help of a grenade? Like, grenades literally take away any diversity in the weapons because the weapons aren't dealing as much damage as the grenades in 75% of the situations. :/

[-Major-]

before the weapons was way stronger, I believe the nades has stayed the same all this time. so to make it as it was before, a weapon buff is needed. however, a spas can easily beat a rugerer. it got pushes and high damage at close range. I often run out of nades, and then at a map like Nuubia there's no way to get further without a spas.

[Extacide]

Yeah, but one grenade and the spas is dead. Ruger wins. Grenades/Luck reign supreme!

And no, we confirmed this three times. 1.2.1 and before the grenades were DIFFERENT. They didn't collide with players, and they weren't as strong. After 1.3 they buffed the grenades. There WAS a change. They weren't anything like they are now. They were used as barriers  and for spawning, and thats it. Not for killing, not even close to the level that they're over used now.

Infact, I just re-read my suggestions, and I think adding that air time before the grenades can collide was a bad-ass idea. They'll still collide, but they won't until they've been in the air for at least a second, rewarding long and accurate throws, but at the same time utterly removing the easy spam fest up close. That means people can't drop a grenade right next to you for a free, guarenteed kill. Add a damage nerf and a delay in between each grenade thrown, and the relative aspect of what the grenade once was will be nerfed, but not utterly gone and useless. Man, I support this idea even more now.

[-Major-]

most people like the nades as they are now. so I think it's better to leave them like they are.

[excruciator]

Posting a controversial thread in a biased community would not the wisest move to make.

Stop flattering yourself as somekind of controversial yet honourable whistle blower in a corrupt establishment.

Now you are flattering me.
Who knows if it will get better or not, frankly, a nerf wouldn't make it much worse than it already is.

most people like the nades as they are now. so I think it's better to leave them like they are.

Popularity has little to do with weapon's overpoweredness.
Nerf is given to overpowered weapons, not the least popular ones.

We could make the nade sticky, and instead of exploding on contact, it explode seconds afterward.
This would make nades a more skilled weapon, and it also gives the opponent a chance to kill the attacker. Once sticked, you have to make the best use of the few second you got left to kill the attacker, and this would give more emphasis on aim(DPS)

[muzikman]

Has anyone oticed how utterly useless clusters are because they stop you from using normal nades

[excruciator]

Don't worry musikman, when the nade gets nerfed, the cluster would seem relatively useful.

[Extacide]

Er Excruciator, nerfing grenades below even clusters is rather out of the question. That's exactly why people don't want to see them get nerfed, because their first ignorant reaction is that grenades are going to be useless. I want them to have a definitive use, I just don't want to see them dominate like they do now.

[homerofgods]

why nerf nades, can't we just make clusters better?

[Extacide]

why nerf nades, can't we just make clusters better?

Ignore exruciator/muzikman, this has nothing to do with clusters LOL.

[excruciator]

Er Excruciator, nerfing grenades below even clusters is rather out of the question. That's exactly why people don't want to see them get nerfed, because their first ignorant reaction is that grenades are going to be useless. I want them to have a definitive use, I just don't want to see them dominate like they do now.

the key term is relative.
Never said anything about a nade weaker than clust.

EDIT:
Still, what do you think about the stolen sticky nade idea.

[Extacide]

My reply dissapeared...

The key term relative. You suggested making grenades relative to cluster grenades, which are the most useless weapon in soldat literally incapable of inflicting damage. To nerf grenades and make that seem even remotely useful sounded like a smug way of suggesting that grenades should be nerfed to poop. Key term: Better terminology.

As for sticky grenades, I glanced over it. Probably 3x worse than the current grenade. It's such a bad idea I can't even gather my thoughts to give a coherent reason as to why. It'd make grenades MUCH worse because they're GUARENTEED to kill every single time. Just throw a sticky and they're done, just run away and wait for them to die. Suggesting that this would help the player inflict more DPS with their weapon...this is the worst way to do it.

[excruciator]

The whole point of that is to make people think the worst case scenario by using
ambiguous wording

Did I mention that the damage would stay the same?
I should've said "few seconds left before the nade explode"

[-Major-]

most people like the nades as they are now. so I think it's better to leave them like they are.

Popularity has little to do with weapon's overpoweredness.
Nerf is given to overpowered weapons, not the least popular ones.

that would be for individual weapons, now the nades are global.

with your idea the nades would be very very underpowered. so we'd have to boost them. the game would imo get a lot more defensive, because you can't attack without full hp now(nade nerf), because you can't kill somebody quikcly.

[excruciator]

Popularity has little to do with weapon's overpoweredness.
Nerf is given to overpowered weapons, not the least popular ones.

that would be for individual weapons, now the nades are global.

That only works if you compare between players. If both side has nades, then its balanced.
But we are talking about weapon comparison, in this case, clearly, nade > weapon.

Explain why that nerf is worse than a major damage nerf.