Autos thread [Discussion]

[STM1993]

Discuss about the Primary Automatics that are currently used in Soldat. You may talk about the current weapon balance, the 1.5 balance, or your own balancing etc. 1.4.2 Stats provided below for convenience.

REAL Damage here is calculated by <damage> x <100% (torso)> x <speed>, amount of shots required is provided if all shots hit the torso. DPS is calculated using the real damage, multiplied by the bullets fired per second. The comma after the , value is the amount of bullets fired during 1 second. DPC is Damage(real damage) per Clip.

2 - HK MP5  :
Damage / DPS: 102 [19278] (9 shots to kill, BS = 189) / 192780, 10 {Short Range}
Fireinterval / Reload: 6 / 105
Ammo / DPC: 30 / 578340
Bink / Movementacc: -11 / 1
Startup: 0

3 - AK-74  :
Damage / DPS: 103 [24720] (7 shots to kill, BS = 240) / 148320, 6 {Mid Range}
Fireinterval / Reload: 10 / 150
Ammo / DPC: 40 / 988800
Bink / Movementacc: -16 / 2
Startup: 0

4 - Steyr Aug  :
Damage / DPS: 73 [18980] (9 shots to kill, BS = 260) / 162685.7, 8.57 {Any Range}
Fireinterval / Reload: 7 / 115
Ammo / DPC: 30 / 569400
Bink / Movementacc: -22 / 2
Startup: 0

9 - FN Minimi  :
Damage / DPS: 85 [22950] (8 shots to kill, BS = 270) / 153000, 6.66 {Mid-Long Range}
Fireinterval / Reload: 9 / 250
Ammo / DPC: 50 / 1147500
Bink / Movementacc: -12 / 4
Startup: 0

0 - XM214 Minigun  :
Damage / DPS: 50 [14500] (12 shots to kill, BS = 290) / 217500, 15 {Any Range provided all bullets reg}
Fireinterval / Reload: 4 / 366
Ammo / DPC: 100 / 1450000
Bink / Movementacc: -6 / 1
Startup: 50

By Descending Order, assuming all shots hit the torso and fire at same time (no startup):
Damage per Shot: AK, Minimi, MP5, Aug, XM214
Damage per Second: XM214, MP5, Aug, Minimi, AK
Damage per Clip: XM214, Minimi, AK, MP5, Aug

Okay, this sentence marks the end of weapon facts and real statistics. Now this is what I think of the autos:

Accuracy (generally): AK, Aug, MP5 or Minimi, XM214
Rush: MP5, Aug, AK, Minimi, XM214
Chase: Aug, AK, Minimi or MP5, XM214
Defend: Minimi, AK, Aug, MP5, XM214
Support: Minimi, AK, Aug, MP5 or XM214
Ground vs Ground: Aug, Minimi, AK or MP5, XM214
Ground vs Air: Minimi, AK or Aug, MP5 or XM214
Air vs Ground: MP5, XM214 or Aug, AK or Minimi
Air vs Air: Aug, MP5 or AK or Minimi, XM214

I feel that the MP5 and AK are more or less perfect (though I find that the AK is less unique compared to the old 1.3 AK), the main focus on balancing is the Aug and the Minimi, while Minigun is pretty much ignored.

The Aug, though not exactly having the best DPS, DPC and damage per shot, it has very good accuracy (bullet speed included) and firing rate at the same time, and it is basically very versatile as it can fight in practically almost any range. That's why it is considered overpowered, and is an issue for nerfs. The problem of balancing is to make sure the Aug is still usable and still versatile, but weaken it so that it is more of an all-rounder than the "I can do it best in any situation" kind of gun. I personally feel that the damage should be -1 and -2 ammo and MAYBE more self-bink instead.

The Minimi, at the moment, is like the AK. It has good DPS, DPC and damage per shot. It is actually also pretty accurate provided that you can control the movementacc (a problem when you want to chase opponents because you have to keep moving). The only two weak points about this gun is its long reload time and the movementacc, that is all. The biggest problem with balancing is to make sure it is neither too similar to the AK nor too similar to the Aug. This is why it can be a topic for debate on whether it needs a nerf or is balanced. I personally feel that it is slightly overpowered ; it needs a slight damage decrease, not a -30 reload. If the reload must be lowered, at most by 15 would be good enough.

The AK is very accurate and has an incredible potential for damage overtime and damage per shot, that is why it can be considered a mini-Minimi or the Minimi-Carbine (lol nice name). But still, it is perfect, as it is balanced by its very slow rate of fire, which is easily beaten by the other autos.

The MP5 is good enough (the 1.5's balance is also reasonable). The bullet speed is exactly what makes it weak compared to other autos, and is also the very reason why it depends quite heavily on height advantage. Otherwise, it is an extremely powerful auto, with unmatched overall speed.

The minigun is basically hopeless for a gun, at least for now. In 1.5 it's getting a heavy buff (the boosting effect is reduced to support this as well), the real damage changing from 14500 to about 15795, 405 bullet speed (in 1.2.1, it is 15950) and the DPS (3 fireinterval instead of 4) becoming 319000. The reason why the Minigun is so hopeless is the major problem of startup time (50!), boosting (CAN be a problem and benefit), and its extreme firing rate actually drains the 100 ammo very quickly and bink, all of these factors making the Minigun inaccurate and hard to aim with (but useful for insane spraying and binking). Plus, it has long reload (350 instead of 366 in 1.5). But then again, there's bullet reg, and it would be fixed in future, so this boost may end up calling for a need to nerf, since bullet reg is what makes the minigun truly useless.

[Pie]

As for the minigun, it's more of an all rounder auto. It's used for suppresive fire and is damn fun to use. It needs a reg boost for it to be any danger at all. it's like you shoot 50 bullets to kill one person. but when you are being shot at you die in like a second.Once it's stable it will be a machine.

I'm worried about it though. It seems pretty overpowered once every bullet regs. It might be nerfed to fix that.

[STM1993]

As for the minigun, it's more of an all rounder auto. It's used for suppresive fire and is damn fun to use. It needs a reg boost for it to be any danger at all. it's like you shoot 50 bullets to kill one person. but when you are being shot at you die in like a second.Once it's stable it will be a machine.

I'm worried about it though. It seems pretty overpowered once every bullet regs. It might be nerfed to fix that.

It is funny though. Why do the beta testers want to buff the minigun by so much in 1.5 when it is known that the bullet reg will definitely be much better, and can result in it being overpowered?

Oh ya, your point about minigun taken into account.

[a-4-year-old]

when it is known that the bullet reg will definitely be much better,

I'll believe that when I see it.

Aug is probably 1st or 2nd in just about every catagory. Except chasing, because it doesn't exist anymore.

All the autos have too much bink, which makes them really not fun to use. Except for that cunt in pubs who bitches about m79 because people actually enjoy using it.

[Ziem]

STM1993 - it isn't really the hit-reg issue (and no one said it's going to be better in 1.5).

a-4-year-old - what? bink? There is almost *no* real selfbink effect (minigun is an exception), cause it's easy to control.

[STM1993]

STM1993 - it isn't really the hit-reg issue (and no one said it's going to be better in 1.5).

Shux, then I guess I must have mis-read some stuff =/

Chasing is there, for example going after the EFC if any or hunting down an injured opponent. Aug is pretty good at that compared to other autos.

[a-4-year-old]

a-4-year-old - what? bink? There is almost *no* real selfbink effect (minigun is an exception), cause it's easy to control.

Controlling bink isn't fun. There is no point in having bink if it is so easily countered by just clicking. It is really annoying when you can't just blast someone.

[STM1993]

Controlling bink isn't fun. There is no point in having bink if it is so easily countered by just clicking. It is really annoying when you can't just blast someone.

Self-bink is useless unless its an auto with startup time, in this case, only the minigun. Sure, the MP5 may be affected actually since its fired rapidly instead of short bursts when within a certain range but oh well.

I think 8th said something in one topic about slowly taking away the self-bink from the autos (except minigun probably) and eventually autos to have no self-bink.

[Decaying Soldat]

STM1993 is right somehow. Rarely blast all bullets onto one guy in normal situations, unless you're really close. But I think bink still affects the mp5, it's just hard to aim with it imo.

Back to the balance, in 1.5, mp5=>buff, AUG=>nerf, minigun=>buff.
Just what I wanted. I'll just have to see how this balance really work out when 1.5 releases. Other than that, I think I'm satisfied with the autos.

[STM1993]

Mmm, the balance is just as I wanted too, actually, just that I find the one for Aug a little too extreme (-5 ammo, and after that still -1 damage? That makes Aug overly weak already). Like I said earlier I think it should have been -2 ammo and -1 damage, that's it. At most damage -2 will do.

[Decaying Soldat]

You have a point STM. First the AUG is overpowered, now it's underpowered? It's swinging between two extremes.

[8th_account]

Here is the latest 1.5 WM for those of you who like to quote stats from it.
http://nopaste.biz/41730

[-Major-]

well what I'd like to have, is a formula for the gravity and air resistance. as it is almost impossible (atleast for me) to get in the long run good values.

[STM1993]

Here is the latest 1.5 WM for those of you who like to quote stats from it.
http://nopaste.biz/41730

Cool! Hmm... Okay I'll type my comments about those new stats later, I just came back from a long day at school.


Date Posted: 12 May 2008, 17:09:23My response to the latest 1.5 WM (on and off-topic at the same time):
DEs and USSOCOM: Satisfactory. 173 damage to socom isn't too big a difference compared to 171 or 172 given the socom's low bullet speed. And now, I can see a very clear difference between these two pistols, and clearly that the DEs are superior.

MP5: Satisfactory. MP5's new stats are basically perfect.
Damage / DPS: 103 [19467] (9 shots to kill, BS = 189) / 194670, 10 {Short Range}
Ammo / DPC: 30 / 584010
Bink / Movementacc: -9 / 1

AK: AK's reduced self-bink is satisfactory, though it doesn't make too big a difference since bink doesn't affect the rather accurate AK much.

Steyr Aug: Keeping the damage, still -5 ammo, but the self-bink decreased by a great deal of 7... hmm... okay I think it'd be better, since Steyr Aug isn't exactly a tap gun given its fireinterval 7, used more in short bursts or long bursts depending on range. It's still quite a major nerf, but the bink is better at least. Maybe it will be acceptable.
Ammo / DPC: 25 / 474500
Bink / Movementacc: -16 / 2

Spas-12 and M79: Satisfactory. +1 ammo is good, +1 speed... okay maybe a very slight difference since the spas shoots 5 pellets at once. As for M79, the increased bink by 15 is okay, I believe the increase between by 15 to 30 is reasonable.

Ruger: I like the new Ruger compared to the other versions. Now its damage is 246, almost (by -1) in between 252 (1.4) and 242 (1.2.1), so that the Ruger's 2 hit and 3 hit ratio is 50/50. Now the bink is taken away, so it is now a truly accurate gun and now completely relies on the user's ability to aim. Movementacc 3 is acceptable (4 is also okay, 5 slightly too high given the damage and fireinterval). 90 reload is okay enough, otherwise the nerf to damage is considered a little too much.

Barrett: Either that is slightly too fast, or it's fine. No other comments, the rest of the decision is up to the beta testers.

Minimi: My first reaction to this is "What the hell?". I am fine with -1 movementacc and the lowered self-bink (to even lower than mp5 by +1). But what really bothered me is the damage. +1 damage to this already well-buffed gun makes it overpowered. In addition, -20 reload gives me the impression that it is more powerful than it really needs to be. I think the reload either stays at 250, or still be reduced at most by 15 or 20. As for damage, I suggest that it remains at 85. Otherwise, it overshadows the AK in too many ways.
Damage / DPS: 86 [23220] (8 shots to kill, BS = 270) / 154800, 6.66 {Short Range}
Ammo / DPC: 50 / 1161000
Bink / Movementacc: -8 / 3

Minigun: Hmm... the minigun's quite a tricky one. It now has exactly double the firing rate of the MP5, but lower damage per shot than it used to be, yet at the same time it has an increased bullet speed. This greatly increases the damage per second, but decreases the damage per clip, and due to faster firing rate, it drains ammo very fast. As for accuracy, its increased bullet speed makes it very easy to hit opponents and difficult to dodge, plus a lower self-bink. Despite faster firing rate which drains ammo rapidly, it is overall easier to aim the new minigun. On the up side, the faster firing rate and higher bullet speed also means one thing: the ability to push back opponents and bink them, making it truly more effective as a support weapon. It has a faster reload time too. Overall, the minigun is much better.
Damage / DPS: 31 [12245] ( <13> shots to kill, BS = 395) / 244900, 20
Fireinterval / Reload: 3 / 350
Ammo / DPC: 100 / 1224500
Bink / Movementacc: -3 / 1
Startup: 50

Knife, Chainsaw, LAW: Knife's reduced damage... no comment. Chainsaw... good buff. LAW... good buff.

EDIT:
Okay, now I got the comments for minigun. Added new DPC stats for the autos with changes to fireinterval, damage or ammo or bullet speed. EDIT 2: Minimi balancing thoughts slightly modified. I think I was too biased after seeing the +1 damage.

[M.rSnow]

There's a typo

Steyr Aug: Keeping the damage, still -5 ammo, but the self-bink decreased by a great deal of 7... hmm... okay I think it'd be better, since Steyr Aug isn't exactly a tap gun given its fireinterval 7, used more in short bursts or long bursts depending on range. It's still quite a major nerf, but the bink is better at least. Maybe it will be acceptable.
Ammo / DPC<--Here: 25 / 474500

I'm not trying to be a grammar-Nazi (spelling-Nazi).

I just dint get why the aug is getting nerfed. The rest is fine but why mess whit the aug? I haven't found it overpowered a slightest bit. At least not in realistic.
And on that list (since you bother showing bullet's to kill) you should have time to kill while holding down the mouse button fire. (A word for that?)
What i mean is that the list you put up is hard to imagen whitout any understanding of time.

[NinjaGimp369]

STM for beta tester. He really knows his stuff.

[STM1993]

There's a typo

Steyr Aug: Keeping the damage, still -5 ammo, but the self-bink decreased by a great deal of 7... hmm... okay I think it'd be better, since Steyr Aug isn't exactly a tap gun given its fireinterval 7, used more in short bursts or long bursts depending on range. It's still quite a major nerf, but the bink is better at least. Maybe it will be acceptable.
Ammo / DPC<--Here: 25 / 474500

I'm not trying to be a grammar-Nazi (spelling-Nazi).

Err what? That's correct its DPC, Damage Per Clip.

I just dint get why the aug is getting nerfed. The rest is fine but why mess whit the aug? I haven't found it overpowered a slightest bit. At least not in realistic.

The reason is because of Aug's versatility. Although for an auto it has the lowest damage per shot and lowest damage per clip, it has a good Damage per Second due to fast firing rate. Along with this, is the Aug's incredible accuracy and its high bullet speed. A master aug-user can easily gun down any other master-auto user as a result. Given its versatility, it can fight at ANY range and still do well. Hence, it is quite overpowered. I won't say anything much for realistic though, I only play normal.

The only thing I can say in Realistic is that the FN Minimi is a "Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40-watt range" and needs some serious nerfing.

And on that list (since you bother showing bullet's to kill) you should have time to kill while holding down the mouse button fire. (A word for that?)
What i mean is that the list you put up is hard to imagen whitout any understanding of time.

Time to kill while holding down the mouse fire button... in other words the amount of time taken to kill someone when the gun fires full auto... pretty simple to calculate. Let me quote part of the 1.4.2 AK in my first post.

3 - AK-74  :
Damage / DPS: 103 [24720] (7 shots to kill, BS = 240) / 148320, 6 {Mid Range}
Fireinterval / Reload: 10 / 150

Take number of shots to kill multiply by fireinterval. You get the amount of time taken to kill an opponent in ticks, 60 ticks being 1 second. This value however, is not accurate due to bullet speed, so it may take longer and it also varies with distance. Like I said, this is just theory.

STM for beta tester. He really knows his stuff.

I have a pretty busy schedule and beta testers tend to be hardcore gamers, while I am just an average public player, so I can't be a beta tester. At most I can do is just give comments about the weapon using some theory and some testing. So if I know the beta weapon.ini I'll just give a load of comments and suggestions on how it may be changed to balance the game out. I'd probably won't stop giving these suggestions until the weapons are perfectly balanced, and hopefully get to find some time to work on my weapons guide...

[Platehead]

As I said in a previous post I think, STM nails the stats.
But I well and truly hate it how some servers disable the minigun.
So you guys think people would still use aug much?

[STM1993]

As I said in a previous post I think, STM nails the stats.
But I well and truly hate it how some servers disable the minigun.
So you guys think people would still use aug much?

The aug has, since the beginning, have the lowest damage per clip (DPC) and 2nd lowest damage per shot (1st being Minigun) of all autos. Now, the clip amount is gonna be reduced by 5, which is a big sum. But without this nerf, Aug would easily be slightly overpowered. Why?

1. High bullet speed
2. High firing rate (3rd highest DPS, 2nd being MP5 and 1st being Minigun)
3. Rather fast reload (almost as fast as 2 seconds, 115 + 7 ticks = 122.)
4. Accurate (Yes, its very accurate for a fast-firing auto.)
5. Very versatile auto ; it can fight at any situation, any range, any gun, with no weaknesses except its low damage per shot.

I would say that the number of Aug users would go down by quite a big number with this significant nerf of -5 ammo, which makes its DPC even lower. Many would either turn to the other autos instead of Steyr: AK for its accuracy, MP5 for its firing rate, Minimi for its amazing DPC and bullet speed. But then again, these autos have glaring weaknesses: AK is significantly slower, MP5 has too short a range, Minimi has too long a reload. Steyr Aug is the only one without these major weaknesses, that's what makes it the most versatile auto and everyone uses it. However, it is also known that the Steyr Aug would have less self-bink, which is a little bit attractive, yet not very attractive to players.

An auto with high firing rate, accuracy and ability to face off at any range is already considered the "ultimate auto" in any FPS game even if it has a low damage per shot, the Steyr Aug in Soldat is a good example. It is currently overpowered. -5 ammo makes the Aug appeal less to players (so the number of people using certain weapons is gonna be more balanced out) and makes it balanced since now the Aug cannot face off too many opponents or be used to spray. To the very good players of Aug, it is still a big nerf, but they can probably handle it better with the slightly improved accuracy (reduced self-bink), now the new problem that the Aug-users face would be to conserve their ammo and make every shot count.

[excruciator]

Make some stats about 1.3.1. and then tell us is the 1.3.1  balance for aug was better. if it is, can we shift nerf more toward selfbink rather than movimentAcc and clip?