Do you believe in evolution?

[BondJamesBond]

No. I don't understand. Hundreds of people witnessed the resurrection. There are recollections and written records. Proof.

Oh wait, I understand now. Sorry, my bad. Evolution is backed up observations so it can't be disproved. The Resurrection was also backed up observations but it can be disproved because you say so. I get it.

It could have been the followers of Jesus who did that and wanted it to look as if he had been resurrected.

I hate it when you don't read and try to offer an argument.


Who are Paleontologist and Evolutionary Biologists? Well they're just people aren't they... and their "job" is to promote evolution/science. Many of them simply abuse their roles to manipulate people within their constituency though. Like those corrupt scientists who use flawed data simply because they wish to deny the existence of a god or like those scientists who release biased reports to brainwash people into atheism, etc.

... Oh right, I know...
Mangled*: no, scientists don't use flawed data. Every single scientist is absolutely perfect and unbiased, and there's not a chance that any scientist in the world would 'lie'. Meanwhile, every single pastor, priest, minister, monk, and nun is totally corrupt and just want to sex up kids and get rich, because I said so.

Well what about them? They earn from the collection plate and donations don't they? So their job is simply to fluff the members of their constituency into believing and contributing money towards the church.

... I don't think you even remember what you wrote.

[Demonic]

Being God means that he, in all probability can predict the happenings of chaotic dynamics

Then there is no freewill

A: Free will exists.
If God knows everything, what will happen and so on, then we have no free will, since everything has been already decided by God.
If God doesn't know everything, he isn't all-powerful.
According to the Bible, God is all-powerful.
God must know everything to be all-powerful, but he cannot be all-powerful if there is free will.
Paradox.

B: There is no free will.
No paradoxes.

B must be true, because A makes a critical paradox - free will and God cannot co-exist.

So, according to the Bible, we humans have no free will, and we have been sentenced to heaven or hell before we are even born.

EDIT: now, get back to evolution.

There is freewill. According to my (limited) understanding of the Christian God, he provides a "stage" if you will, and you have the "choice" to believe in him and be devout, or suffer for all eternity when Jesus returns.

Sorry to quote such a long wall of text, but I'm too lazy to break it down.

As Smegma explained, since God is omniscent he can know all possible outcomes. There is free will, but we can't surprise him in any way: he saw it coming before you or I were even born. To 'fix' the paradox, we could say that our free will is limited within an infinite number of outcomes. It's quite obvious that the future depends on our choices - it will turn out very differently for a lot of people if, for example, I'll go murder someone on a boring afternoon.

The whole hell-image is the heritage of older beliefs and whatnot, and is believed to be purely symbolic ( that is unless you count our newest Pope, who declared that hell exists and they probably indeed roast you until the end of  times ). Accepting Jesus and God and regretting your sins means that you get resurrected in body: this might also be very symbolic and might just cover another stage of existance. The other end would be getting annihilated forever. That's a notch better and goes better with the all-loving God image we like to propagate (;

[Smegma]

we could say that our free will is limited within an infinite number of outcomes.

I wouldn't even call that limited

[Mangled*]

Stating that jobs including evolution in the title isn't fallacious because jobs that exists also contain religious tones (well, essentially it is), its fallacious because its appealing to belief.

Well no, because they actually get employed by real companies, laboratories and at universities to teach. Evolution isn't a spiritual belief. There's no faith required because it's based on proof and evidence and not word of mouth.

No. I don't understand. Hundreds of people witnessed the resurrection. There are recollections and written records. Proof.

Oh wait, I understand now. Sorry, my bad. Evolution is backed up observations so it can't be disproved. The Resurrection was also backed up observations but it can be disproved because you say so. I get it.

It could have been the followers of Jesus who did that and wanted it to look as if he had been resurrected.

I hate it when you don't read and try to offer an argument.

Hundreds of people saw him resurrected? No. Nobody saw the process of resurrection. It could have been staged. It could have been a Jesus lookalike that took his place. Prove otherwise?

Here's a list of things that you can't prove:
1) You can't prove that Jesus ever existed.
2) You can't prove that if he did exist that he was resurrected.
3) You can't prove that if he existed that it wasn't grave robbers who opened up his tomb.

Hundreds of accounts means nothing, particularly that long ago. They could all have been written by the same person. You can't prove that they weren't.

Anyway stop making this thread about your savior Jesus Christ. This is a thread about evolution and not some bearded bloke who got nailed up by romans.

Who are Paleontologist and Evolutionary Biologists? Well they're just people aren't they... and their "job" is to promote evolution/science. Many of them simply abuse their roles to manipulate people within their constituency though. Like those corrupt scientists who use flawed data simply because they wish to deny the existence of a god or like those scientists who release biased reports to brainwash people into atheism, etc.

... Oh right, I know...
Mangled*: no, scientists don't use flawed data. Every single scientist is absolutely perfect and unbiased, and there's not a chance that any scientist in the world would 'lie'. Meanwhile, every single pastor, priest, minister, monk, and nun is totally corrupt and just want to sex up kids and get rich, because I said so.

You Christians are good at extrapolating something from nothing aren't you? You like to fill in the gaps with your own childish naivety rather than face it that your beliefs are utterly flawed.

Bond I know that you in particular don't like me because I made you question your faith last time there was a thread like this. I'm very sorry, I shouldn't have exposed you to such doubt-causing opinions. But I think you've carried this grudge too long. It's unreasonable for you too keep desperately trying to show me up in the way that you do just because you're not as sure as your faith as before you read my opinion some months ago. Please find it in your heart to forgive me.

[Smegma]

Well no, because they actually get employed by real companies, laboratories and at universities to teach. Evolution isn't a spiritual belief. There's no faith required because it's based on proof and evidence and not word of mouth.

Its still fallacious, just because they have a job which was generated by PEOPLE doesn't show that its the one I claimed it to be.

[Graham]

Really? So it's not important despite the fact that you keep your Bible on top of your computer? - yeah, that's right I saw that thread.

The reason I asked when you learned about creationism is because you said beforehand you had learned about evolution and it had seemed unreasonable to you. But most people who are religious were brought up in a religious environment and were completely oblivious to evolution through censorship on the part of all the religious people around them. Because if you're saying that you 'learned' about evolution when you were a child then I'm saying you couldn't possibly have understood it - and I think you're lying when you say you don't remember when you first learned about creationism. That's what I think.

I'd be interested to hear why you think that the Roman Catholic church accepts evolution.

So I have a Bible on my monitor... I now have two by the way... does that make me double christian? I read my Bible at my computer because it's the easiest place for me too, besides that if I have to look a scripture for anything it's right there.

Christianity isn't some big conspiracy no matter how badly you want it to be. In fact atheists are far more Snidely than any church. We don't want to cover up evolution as though it didn't exist. We believe differently, even in Christian school they talk about the basics of evolution, and the mention of creation is far less than you think. In fact whenever my teacher talked about anything evolution vs creation he would follow it up "That's what they choose to believe and this is what we believe, both are fine." Which is exactly my philosophy but you apparently can't wrap your head around that. Even if Christian school did teach evolution is evil the public school are far more massive and teach evolution as a fact, so just sit back and relax... we aren't using baby blood to fuel our holy war machines. 

Oh and I don't know how many times I have said this... I am not catholic!!! Born again and catholic beliefs are so distant in reality they should be two different religions.

Well what about them? They earn from the collection plate and donations don't they? So their job is simply to fluff the members of their constituency into believing and contributing money towards the church.

Btw screw you my parents are local missionaries. My father left a very well paying job to help out his community, which he has had a huge effect. My parents also work a job besides their community help so they can keep on helping people out. My parents have given millions of pounds(no exaggerations) of food out to the poor in the community. His father started a 2nd hand clothing store for the poor folks and all the money from that buys the food my father hands out. My grandfather also started a ministry in the local prisons and my grandmother loves the inmates like her own children. She visits the local prison every week and every holiday she makes sure she gives hundreds of inmates cards or gifts, she does a lot of the word herself.

We truly are a religion of hate aren't we?

[Demonic]

Here's a list of things that you can't prove:
1) You can't prove that Jesus ever existed.
2) You can't prove that if he did exist that he was resurrected.
3) You can't prove that if he existed that it wasn't grave robbers who opened up his tomb.

1. Yeah, the whole New Testament was just invented later on by jews bent to take over the world. Wish I would've thought of that!
2. Indeed. Suddenly a bunch of people just had the silly idea that the son of some jewish carpenter apperantly waltzed out of his tomb, and they started babbling about it while on shrooms. Also, totally unrecorded if you discount most of the documents from around the first century and onward.
3. Yeah, graverobbers actually made a living out of robbing tombs of wandering preachers whom virtually had no money or valuables at all, especially around the time of one of the most sacred jewish holidays, ESPECIALY in the heart of Israel ( which was, by the way, being flooded by roman guards at the time? )

Get off the high-horse: the whole 'Jesus is a myth' theory is as unsound and retarded as creationism is.

[Mangled*]

Really? So it's not important despite the fact that you keep your Bible on top of your computer? - yeah, that's right I saw that thread.

The reason I asked when you learned about creationism is because you said beforehand you had learned about evolution and it had seemed unreasonable to you. But most people who are religious were brought up in a religious environment and were completely oblivious to evolution through censorship on the part of all the religious people around them. Because if you're saying that you 'learned' about evolution when you were a child then I'm saying you couldn't possibly have understood it - and I think you're lying when you say you don't remember when you first learned about creationism. That's what I think.

I'd be interested to hear why you think that the Roman Catholic church accepts evolution.

Christianity isn't some big conspiracy no matter how badly you want it to be. In fact atheists are far more Snidely than any church. We don't want to cover up evolution as though it didn't exist. We believe differently, even in Christian school they talk about the basics of evolution, and the mention of creation is far less than you think. In fact whenever my teacher talked about anything evolution vs creation he would follow it up "That's what they choose to believe and this is what we believe, both are fine." Which is exactly my philosophy but you apparently can't wrap your head around that. Even if Christian school did teach evolution is evil the public school are far more massive and teach evolution as a fact, so just sit back and relax... we aren't using baby blood to fuel our holy war machines. 

Oh and I don't know how many times I have said this... I am not catholic!!! Born again and catholic beliefs are so distant in reality they should be two different religions.

Well what about them? They earn from the collection plate and donations don't they? So their job is simply to fluff the members of their constituency into believing and contributing money towards the church.

Btw screw you my parents are local missionaries. My father left a very well paying job to help out his community, which he has had a huge effect. My parents also work a job besides their community help so they can keep on helping people out. My parents have given millions of pounds(no exaggerations) of food out to the poor in the community. His father started a 2nd hand clothing store for the poor folks and all the money from that buys the food my father hands out. My grandfather also started a ministry in the local prisons and my grandmother loves the inmates like her own children. She visits the local prison every week and every holiday she makes sure she gives hundreds of inmates cards or gifts, she does a lot of the word herself.
We truly are a religion of hate aren't we?*

[/size]

Congratulations, you managed to build 2 text walls to avoid the question. Let me pose it again: Why do you think that the Roman Catholic church accepts evolution?

* If you say so, yes. Point being that missionaries are just charities with an agenda of indoctrination.

1. Yeah, the whole New Testament was just invented later on by jews bent to take over the world. Wish I would've thought of that!
2. Indeed. Suddenly a bunch of people just had the silly idea that the son of some jewish carpenter apperantly waltzed out of his tomb, and they started babbling about it while on shrooms. Also, totally unrecorded if you discount most of the documents from around the first century and onward.
3. Yeah, graverobbers actually made a living out of robbing tombs of wandering preachers whom virtually had no money or valuables at all, especially around the time of one of the most sacred jewish holidays, ESPECIALY in the heart of Israel ( which was, by the way, being flooded by roman guards at the time? )

Get off the high-horse: the whole 'Jesus is a myth' theory is as unsound and retarded as creationism is.

Why are you avoiding the underlying topic with childish, irrelevant sarcasm. I'd really like to know because it seems to be a trend among religious people to ultimately avoid the point if you can't argue back with a valid point.

[Graham]

Congratulations, you managed to build 2 text walls to avoid the question. Let me pose it again: Why do you think that the Roman Catholic church accepts evolution?

Really? I thought the bold I am not catholic!!! answered that question. Me answering that question would be like an atheist saying he knows more about Christianity than a Christian.

* If you say so, yes. Point being that missionaries are just charities with an agenda of indoctrination.

Oh so where is the wall of text about how we are nothing but messengers of hate? When you are confronted with the reality of Christianity you simply brush it off? Maybe you are just scared to admit the fact atheists do nothing but spread discord while most of Christianity is trying to better this world by whatever means they have. I had some respect for you for sticking up for your beliefs but after the disrespect to my family you get no respect at all from me until you apologize.

Btw just to let you know by the simple fact you are so against God/religion you are in fact following biblical principal. Funny ain't it?

[BondJamesBond]

Anyway stop making this thread about your savior Jesus Christ. This is a thread about evolution and not some bearded bloke who got nailed up by romans.

I MADE THIS THREAD ABOUT JESUS CHRIST? Sorry. I used the Resurrection to prove a point - saying that what you said about evolution (can't be disproved etc etc) can be said the same for religion. But you didn't get it, did you? You thought I was actually instigating another religion v science argument, did ya? And so you started by picking out some flaws in the Resurrection - even though that wasn't the point.

And besides, Demonic made a fair argument. You have no response. You fail.

You Christians are good at extrapolating something from nothing aren't you? You like to fill in the gaps with your own childish naivety rather than face it that your beliefs are utterly flawed.

Yeah, Mangled*. Give me a fair argument rather than whining about me pwning your "logic". Soldat:
This is like me destroying with my Barret and you sitting there crying, "noob"... "noob".

There's no way you can misconstrue that analogy.

Bond I know that you in particular don't like me because I made you question your faith last time there was a thread like this. I'm very sorry, I shouldn't have exposed you to such doubt-causing opinions. But I think you've carried this grudge too long. It's unreasonable for you too keep desperately trying to show me up in the way that you do just because you're not as sure as your faith as before you read my opinion some months ago. Please find it in your heart to forgive me.

"noob"


Mangled* ... I have to emphasis this point. I have nothing against science, evolution, or logic. I believe that religion is a faith based on relationship, not logic.

BUT, it's so fun to tear your arguments apart and constantly find 'loopholes' in posts from someone who is supposed to be "logical".

Why are you avoiding the underlying topic with childish, irrelevant sarcasm. I'd really like to know because it seems to be a trend among religious people to ultimately avoid the point if you can't argue back with a valid point.

If anyone is avoiding the topic... it's you

[Lord Frunkamunch]

EDIT: Err, 2 posts too late. All this is to Mangled*'s last post.

^ He answered those pretty well. The fact that it contains sarcasm doesn't immediately discount all his points.

Also, collection plate money doesn't go to some "church hierarchy" who are milking the gullible for money. It doesn't go to specific people collecting it. It goes out to what the church body deems worthy causes, be that charities, house building materials, members in the church faced with an emergency, travel costs for missionaries, ect. Most people working at a church are volunteers. (Except for people such as pastors, who have to work full-time and typically have low salaries)

If you say so, yes. Point being that missionaries are just charities with an agenda of indoctrination.

a: Hey, if you believed what they did you'd do the same thing. There's nothing inherently "wrong" to share what you believe to be salvation topeople who wouldn't otherwise know about it, is there?
b: If you think that's all they do, you're dead wrong. All the missionaries I've met become valuable members of whatever community they join and try their hardest to make life better for the people they're trying to reach. And yes, part of the agenda is to convert them. Again, so what? They genuinely love the people they work with and sharing what they believe to be eternal life is just icing on the cake.

[Mangled*]

Congratulations, you managed to build 2 text walls to avoid the question. Let me pose it again: Why do you think that the Roman Catholic church accepts evolution?

Really? I thought the bold I am not catholic!!! answered that question. Me answering that question would be like an atheist saying he knows more about Christianity than a Christian.

The question again, for the third time: Why do you think that the Roman Catholic church accepts evolution?

I'm simply asking for your opinion of why you think they accepted evolution. We can carry on this dynamic indefinitely if you really want to. It doesn't matter what you are, you don't have to be Roman Catholic to think why Roman Catholics believe in evolution.

Oh so where is the wall of text about how we are nothing but messengers of hate?* When you are confronted with the reality of Christianity you simply brush it off?** Maybe you are just scared to admit the fact atheists do nothing but spread discord while most of Christianity is trying to better this world by whatever means they have.*** I had some respect for you for sticking up for your beliefs but after the disrespect to my family you get no respect at all from me until you apologize.****

Btw just to let you know by the simple fact you are so against God/religion you are in fact following biblical principal. Funny ain't it?*****

* What? I never implied any such thing.
**No, I don't. When confronted with the reality of evolution and scientific findings that contradict things your parents taught you do you simply brush it off?
***Missionaries by definition have an agenda, it's all very well going into Africa and providing aid but only providing aid to people who first convert to a religion is simply a barbaric way of keeping it alive.
****You're like Bond, you take what I say way too personally. If you choose to personalize my opinion and make it specifically about your parents then go ahead. I don't care if you're unable to interpret my opinions properly.
*****Care to elaborate on that? Or are you going to leave it at an obscure statement that really makes no sense at all unless you have an unreasonably wild imagination.

And besides, Demonic made a fair argument. You have no response. You fail.

I bet when you typed this you felt so frustrated that you wanted to cry into a pillow. The rest of what you say in this post gives me the same impression. I think you find the subject overwhelming, you're just not cut out for it so you let people like Smegma, † and Demonic do all the dirty work and you essentially just say "yeah, what he said" afterwards.

Also, collection plate money doesn't go to some "church hierarchy" who are milking the gullible for money. It doesn't go to specific people collecting it. It goes out to what the church body deems worthy causes, be that charities, house building materials, members in the church faced with an emergency, travel costs for missionaries, ect. Most people working at a church are volunteers. (Except for people such as pastors, who have to work full-time and typically have low salaries)

If you say so, yes. Point being that missionaries are just charities with an agenda of indoctrination.

a: Hey, if you believed what they did you'd do the same thing. There's nothing inherently "wrong" to share what you believe to be salvation topeople who wouldn't otherwise know about it, is there?
b: If you think that's all they do, you're dead wrong. All the missionaries I've met become valuable members of whatever community they join and try their hardest to make life better for the people they're trying to reach. And yes, part of the agenda is to convert them. Again, so what? They genuinely love the people they work with and sharing what they believe to be eternal life is just icing on the cake.

I never implied that collection plate money goes towards the church hierarchy. I was comparing nuns and priests to paleontologists and biologists. I don't consider being a nun or a priest to be a job... it's more like a hobby in my opinion.

It's not the charitable aspects of missionaries that I don't like. What I specifically don't like is the intention to push belief on people in the process of being charitable. Hey, I know a few charity workers who are Christians, and I know charity workers who are atheists. They're all good people. You don't need to be religious to be a good person... but try telling that to people in the Salvation army. They're full of themselves, believe me I know.

[Smegma]

You don't need to be religious to be a good person...

So why even bother knocking a good person because they are religious. Religion isn't about moral codes/ethics.

[Graham]

The question again, for the third time: Why do you think that the Roman Catholic church accepts evolution?

I'm simply asking for your opinion of why you think they accepted evolution. We can carry on this dynamic indefinitely if you really want to. It doesn't matter what you are, you don't have to be Roman Catholic to think why Roman Catholics believe in evolution.

I DON'T KNOW
Unless it's a bait question I have no clue why you are bugging me about this.

* What? I never implied any such thing.
**No, I don't. When confronted with the reality of evolution and scientific findings that contradict things your parents taught you do you simply brush it off?
***Missionaries by definition have an agenda, it's all very well going into Africa and providing aid but only providing aid to people who first convert to a religion is simply a barbaric way of keeping it alive.
****You're like Bond, you take what I say way too personally. If you choose to personalize my opinion and make it specifically about your parents then go ahead. I don't care if you're unable to interpret my opinions properly.
*****Care to elaborate on that? Or are you going to leave it at an obscure statement that really makes no sense at all unless you have an unreasonably wild imagination.

*Yes, yes you have. Every religious topic that has been on this forum you are preaching of the evil intentions  and idiocy of religion.

**Oh yeah because I never heard of this thing you call evolution until I came on the internet. I could explain why I don't believe in evolution but it would just end up in you preaching and moaning about what I believe all over again. I am tired of seeing you freak out over any text that can be tied to religion in any way.

***Every organization has an agenda but that doesn't mean they aren't helping. Nice way to research one or two missions and plaster that thought to all missions. Instead of actually asking about my parents missions you are making your mind up about them and labeling them when you have no base to do so.

****Maybe because every time I say anything about my belief you have to jump on it and start yet another boring and biased "debate." It is not only me, you are constantly trying to "inform" everyone here that you have it all figured out. You are like that guy in the group that is constantly butting in and telling people they are wrong. No one likes you but they have to tolerate you.

1"All lawyers are dicks"
2"My dad is a lawyer"
1"Yeah, all lawyers are dicks"
2"..."
1"What the hell are you mad about? Don't be such a dick"

*****The God says to be hot or cold, which means follow Him or cast Him to the side. You are doing the latter. Congrats.

I think you find the subject overwhelming, you're just not cut out for it so you let people like Smegma, † and Demonic do all the dirty work and you essentially just say "yeah, what he said" afterwards.

There are only a few people that will do the dirty work because you are annoying. No matter what someone says they are wrong, you can't agree to disagree, anyone that thinks a different way than you is a sheep or an inbred moron. If you honestly want to have a real debate ask Vijcht how.

[LeetFidle]

Congratulations, you managed to build 2 text walls to avoid the question. Let me pose it again: Why do you think that the Roman Catholic church accepts evolution?

Really? I thought the bold I am not catholic!!! answered that question. Me answering that question would be like an atheist saying he knows more about Christianity than a Christian.

The question again, for the third time: Why do you think that the Roman Catholic church accepts evolution?

Because the Roman Catholics ARE IDIOTS!

[Laser Guy]

Tha was just useless piece of  crap right there leetfidle... it's your opinin and keep it to yourself, fag.

Well, I, myself, don't believe in evolution, but I don't feel like edbating right now. (3:40 am here)

[LeetFidle]

The Catholics supported The Nazi's in WWII, For that move they are idiots in my book.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

Because of course all roman catholics have one collective mind, supported nazi's, and still do today, having passed on their collective consciousness to the next generation with absolutely no change in their ideas.

That's not to say I agree with much of what they believe. I just think your reasoning in judging that many people is horribly flawed.

[BondJamesBond]

I bet when you typed this you felt so frustrated that you wanted to cry into a pillow. The rest of what you say in this post gives me the same impression. I think you find the subject overwhelming, you're just not cut out for it so you let people like Smegma, † and Demonic do all the dirty work and you essentially just say "yeah, what he said" afterwards.

... wait a second.. that's what I said. That's exactly what I said...

This is going down as another defeat for you until you give me a real argument instead of twisting off into some whining tangent.

http://forums.soldat.pl/index.php?topic=27319.msg323467#msg323467
You couldn't make a real response to this other than, "omg christians just nitpick and point flaws and i am scientific i perfect u go hold grudge again"

+ this:

I wasn't trying to convert you. I'm not trying to convert anybody, all I did is give my opinion on what you said the meaning of life is. Take it or leave it. If it makes you feel uneasy then what can I do about that?

Do you see any in consistence between this paragraph and your constant bashing of missionaries/pastors/priests?

---
Mangled*'s Logic
1) Evolution is proven and indisputable because it is based off observations. Jesus' Resurrection can be disproved even though it is also backed by observations. (validity of observations has been discussed here and here.
2) The fact that you can get a job as a paleontologist or evolutionary biologist is "indication" that evolutionary is indisputable. However, the fact that you can get a job as priest, pastor, or minister is not an "indication" that religion is real/true. Because Mangled* says so.
3) All priests and pastors are corrupt and just brainwash people because they are evil, while all scientists are completely unbiased and 100% fair.
4) Pastors and priests make money from donations from the people who attend church. Therefore their job is on lesser grounds than any job in the scientific field. Because Mangled says so.
5) When missionaries spread the gospel and their opinions it is brainwashing. But when Mangled* tries to share his atheist opinions, he is simply 'sharing his thoughts'.
6) An occupation that is based on science and fact should be much more highly regarded than jobs based on spirituality. ... Again because Mangled says so.
7) TBA

[frogboy]

The Catholics supported The Nazi's in WWII, For that move they are idiots in my book.

The protestants supported the Nazi party more than the catholics in WWII. You could say that Chamberlain supported Hitler through appeasement. Stalin supported the Nazis in the early stages of the war. Hitler was also brilliant at manipulating people, and you can't reasonably say that anyone, with the possible exception of Hitler and his close ministers, could predict the Holocaust.