On the juvenile nature of the Harry Potter series

[jerich]

Your story will be fine if your story shares a common theme between the characters and the audience.
For example, most people who read romance novels read it because they long for that perfect romance or they can relate to their big loss, etc..

Don't worry about the young protagonists. As long as they progress to mature in the story, I am sure it will be fine. Actually, the story will be fine if your plot is good, whether or not your characters are young or not.

Don't worry about how the general public categorizes your story. Your audience is much more important than if your story is considered a children's novel, fantasy, or what not. Just because Harry Potter was considered a children's novel, it's obvious that the audience is broader than just children. It is JK's fans(which were obviously more than just children) that got Harry Potter the publicity it received and made her work famous.
Really who cares whether or not it's a children's book or not, as long as you made your connection with your fans through the book.

Setting aside battle royale (which is an awesome book, havent seen the movie), the other books are short.

If you're talking about the 9th grade japanese class whom were taken to an island full of traps and were forced to play game to kill each other with the weapons that were randomly given to them while wearing a self detonating bracelet until there is a sole survivor, the movie is great. But I never read the book.

[Espadon]

The characters do not make a difference; you can use toddlers for a very serious political satire -- it's the actual message in the plot and how it's executed that determines the audience. Evengelion is a anime that has a lot of teenage fans and actually uses main characters even younger than yours; however the actual plotline involves things deeper and more serious than the 'teen action anime' that it appears to be on the outside. Okay, maybe that was a bad example. But anyways, if you have the depth, then regardless of how young your characters are, the story won't be 'juvenile.'

[BondJamesBond]

Normally I would say how applicable a story is to someone's life... but since are talking about fantasy fuck it. i has none imagination

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

Evangelion is a anime that has a lot of teenage fans and actually uses main characters even younger than yours; however the actual plotline involves things deeper and more serious than the 'teen action anime' that it appears to be on the outside. Okay, maybe that was a bad example.

It was a perfect example, as that series was the inspiration for my story.  My "mission statement," so to speak, was something like this:
"I want to write something exactly like NGE but without all the junk that I didn't like, such as the characters sucking so darn hard."

It won't be close enough to be considered copyright infringement or anything like that.  There are six protagonists instead of three, they don't pilot mecha, they don't have the same personalities, it's not set in Japan, there's less focus on the leaders and extraneous characters, and there's no religious symbolism at all (so far or planned).

Here's an excerpt from my design notes that should clarify some of my goals:

-reader should discover truths at about the same rate as the children
 -most plot hints that are dropped are ones that the children observe
-in general, the reader should really identify with the children
 -they are being driven by the plot; they're caught up in it (they are not controlling the story)

-sure, Markus is the main character, but MAKE IT CLEAR that this is not his story.
 -He does not drive the plot
 -He is just as human as the rest
  -Other characters (background characters) should be achieving the same things as Markus
 -Markus is just one person of many, and the story happens to follow him and his friends.

Like I said, it's NGE rewritten the way I wanted it to be.  People reading it will notice a lot of similarities, but that's how inspired work is, I suppose.

[Captain Ben]

so you're making a messed up fanfiction instead of writing something original

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

so you're making a messed up fanfiction instead of writing something original

Well, when you put it that way...I guess it is that simple.

I will tell you this, though.  I love working on the story.  Every new situation I plan, every facet of someone's personality that I add, every time I'm designing the different buildings, every new bit of technology I come up with, every time I work with the setting, I'm having fun.  The concept itself may not be original, but the world that I set it in, the people that I created in that world, and the relationships I've engineered among those people certainly are, and that's good enough for me.

[Captain Ben]

you'd be way better off if you created your own story

changing someone elses is heaps complicated because you'll end up relying on the reader to know the original story, your plot will have holes because you may leave out bits that were important and your style of writing will contrast alot to the original text even if you rewrote it into your own words as well as your story in the end being called an unoriginal rip off, even if the final product is nothing like the base material... its just messy and pointless

[Espadon]

Think you driven yourself into a hole here, LAW. What I think you meant is, you want to make something that would be comparable to eva, right? I also want to point out that, despite the fact eva seems to have religious elements, those are still only a vehicle by which the actual plot progresses [the psychological developments of the characters: Shinji's depression, Asuka's self-worth, Akagi's guilt, etc]. You might want to look past the 'suckage' parts and see why the story needed those 'suckage' aspects. Not saying that you need the same, but while plotting my universe, I realized that making things cool for the sake of 'coolness' is more juvenile than anything else.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

you'd be way better off if you created your own story

changing someone elses is heaps complicated because you'll end up relying on the reader to know the original story, your plot will have holes because you may leave out bits that were important and your style of writing will contrast alot to the original text even if you rewrote it into your own words as well as your story in the end being called an unoriginal rip off, even if the final product is nothing like the base material... its just messy and pointless

Think you driven yourself into a hole here, LAW. What I think you meant is, you want to make something that would be comparable to eva, right?

Yeah, that's the one.  "NGE rewritten the way I wanted it to be" was a gross oversimplification.  When I say the concept is similar, here's what I mean.

In both stories, the world is being attacked by strange creatures, and only a certain number of people have the ability to operate weapons that can damage them.  These characters have to balance their school and training, all the while working out their personal problems and relationships with each other.

Similar? Yes.  A true attempt to rewrite the series? Hardly.  There's absolutely no way I could reproduce the intricacies, and, let's face it, the genius of NGE.

My goal is to have a solid stand-alone story, and if readers end up saying, "Hey...this kind of reminds me of NGE," that's fine.  But there won't be references to NGE itself or events or characters within the series.  These are two completely separate works.

You might want to look past the 'suckage' parts and see why the story needed those 'suckage' aspects. Not saying that you need the same, but while plotting my universe, I realized that making things cool for the sake of 'coolness' is more juvenile than anything else.

I think it's a great series, and I understand that the depression and sometimes utter USELESSNESS of the characters was part of their growth.  It's just so maddening to watch, though.  You're thinking, "Okay Shinji, you can do something great here.  It's all on you.  Stop being a tool, Shinji.  No....no, Shinji, that's still being a tool."  You just want to smack him sometimes.

As for the "coolness" factor, I don't think there's any reason to worry about that.  I'm very aware when I'm designing the story, and I do NOT add things because I think they're cool.  I add parts because I think that they'll help advance and clarify the story, and if people consider those parts to be cool, I guess that's alright.

[Espadon]

But you need to understand that the tool-ness of Shinji is exactly what Anno wanted you to feel. If you took it away, then there is no story because everything is hunky-dory -- that the resolution there. I think right now you're being too direct in your translation of eva elements into your story. Eva's core is built upon Anno's battle with depression -- The characters represent various facets of it. That is the core -- the facets are on the outside only as an interface between the core and the viewer. While eva is undoubtedly inspirational, you shouldn't fall into its gravity well, so to speak.

[LtKillroy]

It is because while LotR is an epic adventure accross a large continent, Harry Potter is a glorified school drama book that is just over-detailed to make it seem longer. Hence HP sucks.

[{LAW} Gamer_2k4]

But you need to understand that the tool-ness of Shinji is exactly what Anno wanted you to feel. If you took it away, then there is no story because everything is hunky-dory -- that the resolution there. I think right now you're being too direct in your translation of eva elements into your story. Eva's core is built upon Anno's battle with depression -- The characters represent various facets of it. That is the core -- the facets are on the outside only as an interface between the core and the viewer. While eva is undoubtedly inspirational, you shouldn't fall into its gravity well, so to speak.

I totally understand that.  It's simultaneously annoying and enlightening when you discover that the Eva combat is just background action.  You think, "Well, that's no fun," but you also think, "Wow, this is pretty deep."  I understand that, and that's the sort of storytelling that I'm trying to emulate.  Characters will die.  There will be moral struggles.  There will be introspection and self-questioning.  Relationships will grow and fall apart.

In my design notes (I don't have them here right now, so I'll paraphrase), I say something to the effect of, "Character focus should be directly proportional to the importance of their relationship to the main character."  Elsewhere, it says something like, "The main character's final act isn't important because of its tactical significance, but because of the personal growth it represents."

Believe me, I'm aware of the significance of NGE.  I know what the story was about, and I know how it made me feel.  But there was some parts that I didn't like.  Some parts seemed boring.  Some parts seemed unnecessary.  Obviously these are my own personal opinions, and the show shouldn't be judged by that alone.  But on the other hand, you said that NGE was structured around Anno's personal feelings of depression.  Why can't I build a story around my personal questions and conflicts, using his format as a guide?

Date Posted: June 16, 2008, 02:25:07 pmAlright, enough about me.  I have to get back on topic.

For another example, consider the differences in C.S. Lewis's works.  His "Chronicles of Narnia" are clearly written for children, while his space trilogy is obviously intended for a more mature audience.  What makes this difference? Is it softening or watering down complex issues? Is it the cast? Is it the amount of action? Is it the language?

I'm just trying to get a handle on this whole thing, so that I don't end up producing some sub-par, shallow story (assuming it ever gets that far in the first place).

[Espadon]

Usually it's how convoluted the story is and how much it draws upon the reader's ability to infer 'hidden' relationships that would point towards its audience. Younger audiences tend to need more direct-telling [look at all the people here that can't detect web sarcasm >.>] so... yeah. We were asking fun of Narnia that day saying how it was just a watered down fairy-tale version of WWII [ETO] lol