Experimental M79 in 1.5 beta

[8th_account]

Ahoy.

The problem with M79 from the beta crew's point of view is that it is too easy for a new player to reach a decent enough level of killing capacity - compared to the other weapons' learning curves - to be a force to be reckoned with.

One reason for this "easiness" is that the faster you're moving, the faster and further your fired projectile will travel. For the M79, moving forward at full speed will add about 20% muzzle velocity, and thus as much as 40% range. Granted, this applies for all weapons, but due to M79's low base speed it gets the biggest procentual gain by far. Another reason is that however fast you may be moving, the bullet will always land X distance infront of you, making fireing while moving forward not much different at all from fireing while moving backwards or standing still.

The M79 cannot be nerfed to balance anymore. More nerfs in the form of lowering speed and increasing moveacc and bink will just feck it up for everyone, not specifically the problematic users. One way would be to buff all the other weapons instead, though that would prove to be much harder and would upset this fragile balance that's been fine-tuned for years since version 1.3.

It seems that the only remaining and feasible way to rebalance the M79 is by removing the player's own velocity from the muzzle velocity, as the game worked before 1.2. This would make the learning curve steeper, and would shift a notable part of its offensive capabilities into its defensive capabilities. It would be the perfect anti-noob, anti-rush tweak - In theory.


I have attached an alternative Soldat executable for the 1.5 public beta version. To my knowledge, it's fully compatible with the public beta servers. And if you happen to be alone, you could always play with bots. Just unzip the file into the Soldat folder and run it.

It would require people to relearn the M79, but perhaps in the long run it might be worth it.

So comments?

[blackdevil0742]

I don't have the beta on my computer but the whole idea thing sounds so extream for a weapon with only 1 bullet. If the other weapons benefit from using the player's speed too then why shouldn't it. It all depends what kind of map is anyway and i find the m79 quite balanced. One hit one kill or one miss and get killed.

[LtKillroy]

Although I will probably always be in favor of adding startup time to the M79, this seems like a good alternative. Still will be essentially the same gun in the right hands, but harder.

[mar77a]

Not quite, imo once you get used to it, it's even easier. On the other hand, only proper testing will tell so I'd like to see this added (and then removed ha,ha).

[Hair|Trigger]

I dont know, it might not agree with A LOT of people

But sometimes you need to make an executive decision, either put up with the endless and inevitable whining of those unable to cope with it for the rest of soldat's existence or give the idea a mere 'test run'

I really like the idea, however I have my doubts that M79 will be as fun to use, I mean from what I've used of it, the weapon kinda needs you to be fast on your feet, and this will negate that skill (it would mean you have to be "in range" and there are no range increasing possibilities)

[Nubism]

dont got the beta but everything you wrong looks fine,
i totaly agree with the part that the m79 is 2easy 2use since 1.3
and thats true, its easier from version to version to use the weapon
and thats annoying as hell.

[blackdevil0742]

The only reason why it bothers me so much is that whatever you do, stand still or run it will fly the same length everytime and it will feel so stiff.

[excruciator]

So there will be a chance that you will selfkill while shooting the air? In other words, there is going to be a maximum rush speed for m79 users?

[8th_account]

The M79 fires its projectile at 107 "speed units." A soldat can run at about 20 units and reach a bit over 50 with a great boost. So its pretty much impossible to run into your bullet.

[iDante]

offtopic:
Was the gun in Terminator 2 (the big kaboom gun) an m79?

ontopic:
I like the idea, but I don't think it hits the problem as well as it could. When I go pubbing (rare these days) the good m79ers are usually the ones that take a hit or two while they let you get close to them, then blow you away. The only people this hurts are the rushers, which we want to help (new players need to learn how to move too).

[excruciator]

The M79 fires its projectile at 107 "speed units." A soldat can run at about 20 units and reach a bit over 50 with a great boost. So its pretty much impossible to run into your bullet.

what if you nade boost?

Its a good idea but I don't think it really tackles the problem. Eventhough I do not know what the problem really is.

[STM1993]

offtopic:
Was the gun in Terminator 2 (the big kaboom gun) an m79?

Big kaboom gun? Whatever it is, the Terminator DID use a M79 in some scenes, and it is the weapon that finished off the T-1000.

Hmm, a new change in M79? I guess I'll go test it out later, not much time now.

[BlisterEye]

The M79 fires its projectile at 107 "speed units." A soldat can run at about 20 units and reach a bit over 50 with a great boost. So its pretty much impossible to run into your bullet.

Wrong. I was boosted down the hill on inf_Abel by a team mate while I was firing the el cheapo noob cannon (I really dislike it, to be honest) and landed in FRONT of the damn thing's load. And since I was prone when I got boosted, the only thing I could do was watch it get closer and closer to me..
It was somewhat funny. But it irritated me.
Having said this, I'm for the limitation of the 79; too many "Major" newbies just spamming with 79 everywhere.

[excruciator]

I don't really think it changes that much. Most newbies don't even know how to bunny hop yet they are still able to irritate with m79s.

[STM1993]

Okay, tried out the new M79. Basically everything that 8th has already said.

The new M79 will need a rather different play style in future. It has lost some offensive ability due to lack of range without muzzle velocity, but it has gained more power when running away and shooting. This may encourage users to rush with the M79 less often, and cause more people to use a "move-backwards-and-shoot" tactic, now that the M79 can shoot a longer range when moving backward due to lack of muzzle velocity.

For some reason, I feel that the M79's range when standing still is a little bit longer than normal, I may be wrong about this.

Personally, I think it's easier to use the M79 defensively than offensively. Also, now with fixed bullet speed, it may be possible to blow yourself up if you move too fast (if you got boosted, for example). I believe that the amount of "M79 Noob" may die down a bit (see below for reason).



Ultimately, I think the M79 is still the same gun. It really is the same gun actually, just that now the tactics to use it is different. Nice move to remove the muzzle velocity.

Date Posted: 11 August 2008, 12:19:38Hey 8th (Skoskav),

I was wondering, there would be a beta WITH the 75% bullet push right? I'm dying to try out soon. I can only give the theory that (if Training is used):

DEs are slightly buffed.
MP5 is nerfed quite a lot, because it relies pretty heavily on bullet push.
AK is nerfed quite a bit.
Aug is probably OVER-nerfed - Consider giving it back its 5 ammo.
Spas is seen by most people as a nerf.
M79 is quite hard to tell, but probably buffed.
Barrett is probably buffed a little too much - consider not changing the stats of the Barrett.
Minimi is very hard to tell. Majorly buffed in one sense, yet the bullet push also nerfs it quite a lot.
Minigun is buffed heavily (which is good).
Socom is slightly nerfed.
Knife is hard to tell.
Chainsaw is buffed.
LAW is buffed (BP affects pple trying to get on the ground to shoot it).
Flamer is buffed (now it can charge in more easily).
Rambo Bow and Flamed Arrows are actually buffed.

[iggMaN]

As I am a M79-player, I must say that this change is pretty neat.
I can take a while to get use to, but I do think this upgrade is helping it.
Good work.

[a-4-year-old]

this change won't really change anything, since I can still just run right up someone's ass and blast them from no range.

[ElSpec774]

this change won't really change anything, since I can still just run right up someone's ass and blast them from no range.

As long as the M79 exists, this will never change, although it is a bit harder.

[STM1993]

this change won't really change anything, since I can still just run right up someone's ass and blast them from no range.

That is true. As I said, it's still the same gun, just that the tactics to use it would have some differences. It can still run and "boom", but the fact that the bullet can't travel as fast as before when fired forward forces players to go even closer than needed if they want the M79 to definitely hit.

[SDFilm]

The M79 fires its projectile at 107 "speed units." A soldat can run at about 20 units and reach a bit over 50 with a great boost. So its pretty much impossible to run into your bullet.

what if you nade boost?

Then you deserve to be self-killed IMO. It's the M79 version of mini-surfing- an abuse of the game phisics, and an ability that other wepaons don't have.

[SyavX]

keep on. add more changes into gameplay and force players to use prev. versions of soldat...

[Lumen-Shroom]

keep on. add more changes into gameplay and force players to use prev. versions of soldat...

If they're so noobish that a 40% range decreasal on the M79 (MAX) means they can't play that version properly, then they should leave.

[iDante]

I don't really like this. imo everyone in the game would have to relearn the gun.
I'd say if you want to nerf it without hurting experienced players too much then raise the reload time. It would at least force the noobs to aim it properly.

[STM1993]

I don't really like this. imo everyone in the game would have to relearn the gun.
I'd say if you want to nerf it without hurting experienced players too much then raise the reload time. It would at least force the noobs to aim it properly.

What about all the other guns (especially autos, Minigun, Spas)? They've also experienced some pretty major changes because of the 75% bullet push (and for Minigun, also a major change in stats). Almost everyone is going to relearn the weapons (except some weapons) one way or another, because now the pushing power of the bullets are simply weaker and may result in a change of playing style too.

Also, if you think about it, the M79 is already at the stage where if you change the weapon.ini stats, you completely ruin the balance. Nerf it even a little, it is still cheap but also loses the M79's effectiveness and making it a useless gun even to a M79 master. Buff it a little, and it becomes super overpowered and even more cheap. So I guess you have to change some other things in Soldat itself.

Besides, the ability to nade boost etc is what makes the M79 so hard to balance, because with a boost in speed of the player's Soldat character, it adds speed to the projectile, letting it fly faster and further than it should. This would also result in making the M79 too easy to use. With this new change, it would prevent this from happening. Or even cause the suicide of a M79er if he is not careful. But yet again, while the M79 is nerfed in this aspect, it has gained some kind of buff in another area.

[a-4-year-old]

how exactly will this add to the learning curve of an m79? It seems like all this is going to do is shift from people thinking its lame because it is the super omega rush weapon from hell, to camping some choke point on a map and thinking its lame because hes camping.

[evilpants]

shit. ;/

[STM1993]

how exactly will this add to the learning curve of an m79? It seems like all this is going to do is shift from people thinking its lame because it is the super omega rush weapon from hell, to camping some choke point on a map and thinking its lame because hes camping.

Why would people camp with the M79 if they could use a Barrett instead?

[Despair]

The M79 fires its projectile at 107 "speed units." A soldat can run at about 20 units and reach a bit over 50 with a great boost. So its pretty much impossible to run into your bullet.

what if you nade boost?

Then you deserve to be self-killed IMO. It's the M79 version of mini-surfing- an abuse of the game phisics, and an ability that other wepaons don't have.

so what? boosting is seriously a good technique, and one with a decent diffculty to master. it helps when flag carrying, in a situation where you need to get the hell away boosting in the right places will either trick your opponent, or just fly you far away from your opponent. besides, you lose health when you're boosting and if a sprayer gets to you while you're mid-boost you're dead in most situations.

boosting is balanced if you ask me, and quite an advanced technique for the m79!

[a-4-year-old]

how exactly will this add to the learning curve of an m79? It seems like all this is going to do is shift from people thinking its lame because it is the super omega rush weapon from hell, to camping some choke point on a map and thinking its lame because hes camping.

Why would people camp with the M79 if they could use a Barrett instead?

corners

[8th_account]

People using M79 to camp at corners is nothing that this change would contribute to. They can do that just as well currently.

[excruciator]

First of all, why would they pick corners.
Why are we generalizing m79 instead of specializing it. Instead of the range the same why don't we make the range shorter and make it more sensitive to the player's speed.
Thus making it harder for newcomers because of the less predictable range, while making it very proficient for rushers.

[a-4-year-old]

People using M79 to camp at corners is nothing that this change would contribute to. They can do that just as well currently.

well not directly but you're just taking away their best tactic so all they will have is their next best tactic.

also what if they freefall  for a long distance and try to shoot down?

how about movement affects it much less, like 1 % of the full speed is added to the muzzle velocity, nobody would ever notice except they wouldn't die like they used to when they popped a grenade without throwing it far enough.

Or how about putting a backspin on the m79 grenade and reducing the speed, the backspin (if it would work in the game) would generate lift, so the bullet could fly the same range a lot slower. That means the only real skill the thing requires would be much more difficult to master.

[SDFilm]

while making it very proficient for rushers.

Why would we want to encourage rushing even further? M79-rushing is one of the main problems.

[a-4-year-old]

while making it very proficient for rushers.

Why would we want to encourage rushing even further? M79-rushing is one of the main problems.

according to the beta crew.

[ElGato]

while making it very proficient for rushers.

Why would we want to encourage rushing even further? M79-rushing is one of the main problems.

according to the beta crew.

If rushing is a main problem to the beta crew why has bullet push been reduced? M79 rushing is the focus of this thread due to how easy it is for new players and how much it gains from speed.

And for excruciator....

The M79 cannot be nerfed to balance anymore. More nerfs in the form of lowering speed and increasing moveacc and bink will just feck it up for everyone, not specifically the problematic users.

[a-4-year-old]

If rushing is a main problem to the beta crew why has bullet push been reduced? M79 rushing is the focus of this thread due to how easy it is for new players and how much it gains from speed.

because you gave all the weapons pissloads of movementacc and made their damage suck.

[excruciator]

while making it very proficient for rushers.

Why would we want to encourage rushing even further? M79-rushing is one of the main problems.

Let me rephrase my point. It will be proficient for GOOD rushers.

while making it very proficient for rushers.

Why would we want to encourage rushing even further? M79-rushing is one of the main problems.

according to the beta crew.

If rushing is a main problem to the beta crew why has bullet push been reduced? M79 rushing is the focus of this thread due to how easy it is for new players and how much it gains from speed.

And for excruciator....

The M79 cannot be nerfed to balance anymore. More nerfs in the form of lowering speed and increasing moveacc and bink will just feck it up for everyone, not specifically the problematic users.

You obviously didn't understand my point. You can classify any change as a classic nerf as 8th's suggestion also involve a decrease in range. But the method is just unorthodox.

Mine is exactly the same, but is the exact opposite. You lower the normal range of the M79. But make it more sensitive to player's speed. So normally, if a shot is fired while bunnying, it would add, let's say, 100% of the player's speed onto m79s speed, thus increasing range. This one would add 150% or 200% of the player's speed.

Thus making it more favorable in term of rushing, it also adding difficulty to the gun as the speed/range varies with your speed. Making it a very proeficient rushing weapon while repelling the newbies as it's harder to handle. It's sorta like a speed/movimentAcc nerf but is very unorthodox.

[STM1993]

Wouldn't that make it a hybrid of a rushing version of Barrett + Knife?

[excruciator]

Wouldn't that make it a hybrid of a rushing version of Barrett + Knife?

This would be more specialized than ret+knife as there is no movimentAcc and delay.

[ElGato]

If rushing is a main problem to the beta crew why has bullet push been reduced? M79 rushing is the focus of this thread due to how easy it is for new players and how much it gains from speed.

because you gave all the weapons pissloads of movementacc and made their damage suck.

I didn't have anything to do with the weapon changes and as far as I know no change thus far is final for 1.5. If you're talking about 1.4.2 I have no problem mowing down people in a second.

You obviously didn't understand my point. You can classify any change as a classic nerf as 8th's suggestion also involve a decrease in range. But the method is just unorthodox.

Mine is exactly the same, but is the exact opposite. You lower the normal range of the M79. But make it more sensitive to player's speed. So normally, if a shot is fired while bunnying, it would add, let's say, 100% of the player's speed onto m79s speed, thus increasing range. This one would add 150% or 200% of the player's speed.

Thus making it more favorable in term of rushing, it also adding difficulty to the gun as the speed/range varies with your speed. Making it a very proeficient rushing weapon while repelling the newbies as it's harder to handle. It's sorta like a speed/movimentAcc nerf but is very unorthodox.

I do see what you mean now and I did misunderstand, I didn't read your other post well enough. I actually like your idea too I'm just not sure how it would work. Or if it could even be done.

[a-4-year-old]

If rushing is a main problem to the beta crew why has bullet push been reduced? M79 rushing is the focus of this thread due to how easy it is for new players and how much it gains from speed.

because you gave all the weapons pissloads of movementacc and made their damage suck.

I didn't have anything to do with the weapon changes and as far as I know no change thus far is final for 1.5. If you're talking about 1.4.2 I have no problem mowing down people in a second.

you=plural=the beta testers
they got progressively weaker since 1.2.1

[ElGato]

1.2.1 wasn't that fun in my opinion, and with the public beta it seems you have as much say as I do with the weapon balance.

[excruciator]

You do have the "say", but it's who implements it that counts.

[8th_account]

If rushing is a main problem to the beta crew why has bullet push been reduced? M79 rushing is the focus of this thread due to how easy it is for new players and how much it gains from speed.

because you gave all the weapons pissloads of movementacc and made their damage suck.

I didn't have anything to do with the weapon changes and as far as I know no change thus far is final for 1.5. If you're talking about 1.4.2 I have no problem mowing down people in a second.

you=plural=the beta testers
they got progressively weaker since 1.2.1

That is kinda of a lie. The weapons did get weaker from 1.2.1 to 1.3.1, then the most influential balancers, BugsRevenge and Demonic, was replaced by yours truly. From that version on, the weapons have become progressively stronger.

[LtKillroy]

I still don't see why instead of this you give it a startup time would be an option. Startup=/=rushing.

[excruciator]

because we would hate to see the same 1 hitter twice.

[a-4-year-old]

I still don't see why instead of this you give it a startup time would be an option. Startup=/=rushing.

because instead of:
*bang*
WTF JUST HAPPENED?
it would be:
oh shi im gonna die
*BANG*
donkey nuts

[Mx7]

80% of the players (especially on realistic mode)  are playing with other weapon than m79 . That  weapon is too easy to use and it kills a bunch of players in 20 10 seconds (or less) ... -As a realistic player, i think that m79 is a very easy weapon to use (that makes it so fucking boring or annoying) and too comfortable to play with . I mean ... the other players use autos , ruger , other cool things , fight with tactics and syncronization , some like me try with knife , others law each other.... then .. boom . 1 m79 comes in scene , shots a bullet , kills us all , and ruins all the fun. 

[STM1993]

because instead of:
*bang*
WTF JUST HAPPENED?
it would be:
oh shi im gonna die
*BANG*
donkey nuts

*erherm*

because we would hate to see the same 1 hitter twice.

Not just the Barrett ; the LAW included.

[-Major-]

so painful! it really is messed up, as you can fly faster than your own bullet. but please 8th account can you give me the physic "rules" for soldat? I'd be happy to have it and do calculations.

anyhow, I just made a demo to show that you can fly faster than your bullet.

the 2nd demo is better....

[numgun]

Didnt MM say he wanted to keep m79 boosting back a while?

Also the m79 is a popular weapon because it causes EXPLOSIONS.
And believe me, everyone loves EXPLOSIONS. And the m79 provides the people that.

So whether you nerf it or not, its the same. People will keep using because its just satisfying.

[MuffinDude]

I never really going against the m79 no matter what it was like.  Barret user and if I miss, I usually die due to the huge blast radius.

[Ziem]

I never really going against the m79 no matter what it was like.  Barret user and if I miss, I usually die due to the huge blast radius.

"huge blast radius"? m79's splash isn't really deadly... its dealing damage, but it won't kill you unless you're on low hps.

[Outcast]

Removing the player speed from m79 will only make it easier since the shot would always go the same. Yes that's how it used to be and yes it was easier back then.

[8th_account]

Actually it'd make it harder since the the relative range that the shell travels from the player will by dynamic. Assume for a second that a player could move at the speed of light. In 1.4.2 his shell would travel at [speed of light] + 107, and hitting his target would be no different than if the player moved at a speed of 20 speed units in any direction or stood still. With this tweak one would have to aim differently depending on the speed.

[Lord Frunkamunch]

Is this in the 1.5c patch, and if not, will the new executable work in 1.5c?

[Outcast]

In your first post you claim that the m79 has the biggest gain from the players speed and yet the bullet always lands the same distance from you no matter where and how fast you move? Umm...no. With the speed of the bullet you offcourse change the distance it goes. (You already have to aim differently defending on the speed)

At first I thought you want to remove the players speed from the equasion all together, which is how it used to be and it was really easy. Which by your rather silly response I gather that's not the case. (You already have to aim differently defending on the speed). Standing still or going really fast and shooting does affect the distance, arc and speed. Faster you go, less arc, more speed and distance.
But yes I just reread it and I think you're trying to substract the player speed from the bullet speed? You go back and it goes further? Errr...makes no sense to me.

I'm truly puzzled.

[8th_account]

Play 1.1.5 or extract the Project.exe and you'll see what I mean.