Do you believe in god?

[Graham]

I like how you posted a link that includes this statement

some Christians used a warped theology to justify

Also in that second article all the people had to do was simply say they followed a religion. I know plenty of people that claim to be christians but don't follow any of the teachings. Doesn't mean they are Christians. I could say I was black until I died, doesn't mean I am.

I have seen people turn into scumbags when they renounce a religion and scumbags turn into angels when they convert.

[iDante]

Well except for if they are non believers ... according to the bible...

Howabout you find me a passage in the bible (that wasn't later refuted by jesus) that says that we should kill non-believers? Go on!

http://www.prisoners.com/relcrime.html

According to wikipedia:

Paul authored a paper in 2005 entitled "Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies: A First Look".[2] He states in the introduction that the paper is "not an attempt to present a definitive study that establishes cause versus effect between religiosity, secularism and societal health".[3] This paper has been criticized on statistical grounds, for conceptual ambiguity , its indirect measure of "religiosity" (the author's term) and its "chi-by-eye" interpretation of scatterplots rather than quantified measures. Summing up in a published article in the same journal, Moreno-Riaño, Smith, and Mach wrote that "[Paul's] methodological problems do not allow for any conclusive statement to be advanced regarding the various hypotheses Paul seeks to demonstrate or falsify."[4] Note: Moreno-Riaño, Smith, and Mach, were, at the time of their paper, from Cedarville University, OH. This Christian University requests adhesion to a binding Doctrine Statement [5] that constrains the freedom of what a member of the faculty or a student could conclude in matters touching the University religious tenets.

Gary F. Jensen of Vanderbilt University is one of the scientists who criticizes the methods used by Paul, including that "Paul’s analysis generates the 'desired results' by selectively choosing the set of social problems to include to highlight the negative consequences of religion". In a response [6] to the study by Paul, he builds on and refines Paul's analysis. His conclusion, that focus only in the crime of homicide, is that there is a correlation (and perhaps a causal relationship) of higher homicide rates, not with Christianity, but with dualistic Christian beliefs, something Jensen defines as the strong belief in all of the following : God, heaven, devil and hell. Excerpt: "A multiple regression analysis reveals a complex relationship with some dimensions of religiosity encouraging homicide and other dimensions discouraging it."

[BondJamesBond]

Well except for if they are non believers ... according to the bible...

dum

no one should waste time with him anymore

[Magus86]

"Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.  Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.  He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.  His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron."

That's not very descriptive... I don't know how you get a dinosaur out of that, or ANYTHING other than a non-descript bigass animal that eats a lot and has a big tail. It says nothing about the long neck of that dinosaur. Plus, I could have sworn a dinosaur like that ate leaves from trees, not grass. That's the point of the long neck. It's just like a giraffe in that respect.

 And besides, do we even know what dinosaurs really looked like? No, we don't because all we have is their bones.  They could have been big lard asses for all we know.

About the whole killing thing, and the big bang and whatnot... Just because I don't believe in a god or the creationist theory of how everything "began," that doesn't mean that I believe in the most widely accepted opponent to said theory either. I think the big bang is just as fuckin retarded. There was nothing, then an explosion, and wee, we have planets. That sounds just as stupid. I don't know how anything was created. I'm not going to pretend to know or even try to figure it out because it's beyond my comprehension. And i'm just gonna leave it at that.

Atheists will not go kill christians. We will not kill anybody based on religion simply because Atheism is a lack of religion. A lack of beliefs. I don't believe in anything. We don't organize and go to church where we try to beat ideas into each other's heads. We do not sit and discuss about how everybody who doesn't think the same way we do is evil and sinful and will burn in hell and/or needs to be killed/saved/whatever. There is NO organized atheism, and there never will be.

Nobody said we're "cool" for being atheists, so stop with that bullshit. I'm not an atheist because I think it's cool. I'm an atheist because LOGIC, that has supposedly been given to me by god, tells me that a lot of the things christians believe simply do not make sense.

How do you know homosexuality is a choice? I'm heterosexual, but I didn't wake up one day and DECIDE to be attracted to females. That's just the way it is, so I would imagine it would be about the same for a homosexual.  And even if it is a choice, so what? Why is it wrong to make somebody else feel good? Why were we given the ability to feel pleasure during sex if that pleasure is bad? How could it possibly be bad? What's the harm in that? I can understand things like "don't kill," "don't steal," and "don't lie," but... Don't suck another guy's dick? Don't eat another girl's pussy? Why not?

I can understand why humans would get the idea that homosexuality could be detrimental, but a sin worthy of getting you a 1-way ticket to the lake of fire??? If we were all homosexual, we would have no desire for members of the opposite sex and would therefore not reproduce. If this continues long enough, there will be no more humans. I get that, but I still don't see how it's "wrong." And nobody has an answer for it. "god said so" is about the best I've seen so far, and that's a piss-poor reason.

If I was god, and I created and intelligent animal whom I've given the ability to use logic and reason, as well as the desire to question things and better understand, you can bet your ass I'd have given a better explanation than "cuz I said so." That's interesting, because god seems to have certain flaws we can observe in humans. Could it be that maybe... JUST MAYBE it's because god is a human creation? I'm not trying to change anybody's mind here. I know that simply won't happen. I would just like to see you christians stop throwing everything we have to say out the window because we don't pray to an invisible man who lives in the clouds like you do. Some of you are so damn adamant with your beliefs.

 If we truly have free will, then why are there consequences? And consider this... if it's a sin to not worship god, and if you never know about god, believe in him, pray to him, and sacrifice your life to him, and you'll go to hell as a result of not doing these things... what of the people who have never heard of god? Do you mean to tell me that every single fish, dog, hamster, cat, rat, alligator, chimpanzee, cockatoo, etc.... EVERY SINGLE ANIMAL goes to hell? Oh wait, that's right. they don't have souls. They're not humans, so it would only make sense that we would consider them unimportant. Plus there's the whole "language" barrier thing going on. Since we can't try and push our beliefs on dogs, they don't get to have a soul.

You say that everything on earth is perfect, and if we were 1 meter closer, the planet couldn't sustain life? Are you fucking serious? Like someone already mentioned, we have an elliptical orbit, which means we're not constantly the same distance from the sun. Aside from that, supposedly throughout the "life" of a star, its intensity changes. So distance is not the only factor affecting anything. And regardless, the earth has gone thru some pretty damn drastic changes in the past. We've had at least 2 ice ages... Did the sun move away from the planet to cause that? Probably not... Even though it got unbelievably cold, did life persist and survive? Yes it did. And there are certain types of bacteria that live in ridiculously hot and cold environments. Life could easily survive a difference of 1 meter... It already fuckin does that.

You say that as secularism is more widely accepted, more crimes are committed. Yes, that's true. But it's also true that secularism becoming more widely accepted takes TIME. And over TIME, the population increases. So it would only make sense that more crime would occur. Has anybody done a per capita study on this to find out how the percentage of people willing to commit a crime has fluctuated? And what about other factors? Just because atheists don't believe in god, that doesn't mean we don't have fucking morals or standards. It has been my observation that I practice christianity's basic rules more than most people who actually claim to be christian. For instance, I believe firmly in treating others as you wish to be treated. I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt and showing them respect until they've proven they don't deserve it. I don't steal. I try to always be truthful. I'm not a murderer. I don't shit all over people who don't believe what I do. I don't need the threat of burning for eternity to keep me in line.

If people honestly need religion to tell them "do good, and be rewarded. Do bad, and be punished," to keep them from committing horrible acts(I don't see how you could even say that. People do more killing in the name of religion than anything), then we as a species are truly sad.

I appreciate that somebody has at least attempted to answer my questions, but I'm not quite satisfied. I seriously want to have an intelligent, mature conversation about this. I enjoy it. And of course, it's fun to see some of the responses.

[excruciator]

If there is no god, how come Banana's are perfectly shaped to fit in ones hand, and perfectly fit to fit in ones mouth?

It doesnt. banana is actually a berry. We are not eating it as a whole, we are actually splitting it.
So it is not god that makes banana fit perfectly, we do, by breaking it into smaller pieces.


^^ magus jeez you got a essay up there. Save it for your english teacher man...

Date Posted: August 07, 2008, 06:49:37 pm

No I don't believe he made me. I don't believe that our existence as anything to do with God. But this world is filled with wonders, and perhaps a superior being does exist.
But until he show up, I wouldn't rely on him for anything. Let alone believing him.

Wasn't talking about whether you believe in God or not was talking about this:

Unless real God shows up in front of my door step.

Notice my use of words. I never said that I believed in God. I just cant say that it doesn't exist.

[Flamingo]

I can understand why humans would get the idea that homosexuality could be detrimental, but a sin worthy of getting you a 1-way ticket to the lake of fire??? If we were all homosexual, we would have no desire for members of the opposite sex and would therefore not reproduce. If this continues long enough, there will be no more humans. I get that, but I still don't see how it's "wrong." And nobody has an answer for it. "god said so" is about the best I've seen so far, and that's a piss-poor reason.

You think god created a man and a woman just because he couldn't be arsed to create another man or another female?

[excruciator]

I can understand why humans would get the idea that homosexuality could be detrimental, but a sin worthy of getting you a 1-way ticket to the lake of fire??? If we were all homosexual, we would have no desire for members of the opposite sex and would therefore not reproduce. If this continues long enough, there will be no more humans. I get that, but I still don't see how it's "wrong." And nobody has an answer for it. "god said so" is about the best I've seen so far, and that's a piss-poor reason.

You think god created a man and a woman just because he couldn't be arsed to create another man or another female?

I gotta agree with that, homosexuality is just wrong. WRONG.
I wouldn't use "God created human"... but there is a reason why a specie is formed by  male and female.

From the evolution point of view, our purpose is nothing but passing the gene on to the next generation. After that whether we survive or not is not important.

slags fail at the most foundamental level. Ameoba is more successful on that matter.

[Flamingo]

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind here. I know that simply won't happen.

Then what are you trying to achieve with your wall of text?

[excruciator]

IMO, this God in our opinion(Not the real god, who is too busy to care about us) Its just some neurotransmitter acting up. Oxytocin controls human trust, which is an important socializing agent.

Without trust, there wouldn't be society, or groups forming. There is a similar hormone in fish, where it makes ovulating females not fearful of the approaching males, simply because the advantage of having offsprings and gene diversity greatly outweight the danger of becoming other fish's lunch.

Because human child takes a unusually long time to raise. Females would need help from males in order to raise the offspring.(Wonder why human is the only primate who has permanent breasts?, because it makes the male think that the female is ovulating, so male would stick around) Now if you want a helper, it takes socializing, and thus trust. Oxytocin kicks in and so we would be able to trust other individuals.

Human has much higher oxytocin concentration than other animals, simply because we need more help, thus we need more "friends", so we need more trust, thus more oxytocin.

This enabled us to "befriend" with more than just our own species. That is why we can beriend with our pets, and we can have notragic feelings, toward our house, car etc...

Human brain is able to hallucinate and create imaginary things in order to sadisfy the need for companionship. This God is probably just a guardian we've created to solve our problems, at least, make us believe that its going to solve the problem.

Now, people say animals would go to heaven because they dont believe in god(or something like that). Its actually that they don't need this attachment to others, at least as strong as the need in humans. It is actually unusual for an animal to have feeling of attachment to inanimate objects(inanimate objects, or things that dont exist).

that is why I also think that this God in our head. It is not god, its the hormone acting up.

[Magus86]

I'm not trying to achieve anything. I just want to have a serious intelligent conversation about religion. I want to try to understand things better. I want to know why you people believe so strongly. What kind of "proof" do you have of the existence of god?

"save it for your english teacher." I don't have an english teacher. I'm not in school.

You say homosexuality is just plain wrong... WHY is it wrong? What about it makes it wrong? What affect does some random guys shagging together somewhere have on you? The only reason you think it's wrong is because it's what's been beaten into your head since you were two young to mount an intelligent argument against it. If you were just born and then left alone to figure everything out on your own and fend for yourself, and you eventually came across two guys blowing each other, there would be no reason for you to see anything wrong with that. You would never know anything about sex because nobody told you anything. You would not know that men and women are supposed to have sex to reproduce. if anything, you'd be curious to know why their penises were hard, and why they seem to be enjoying themselves so much.

Other animals are the same way. Yes, they are all smart enough to figure out what to do with their bits and pieces, but at the same time they feel no shame about anything sexual, and they weren't told homosexuality is wrong. It occurs in nature. What's the harm in it?

No, I don't think we have men and women because someone couldn't be "arsed" to create another. That doesn't even make any sense. It would require more work to make something different from the original. And I don't think anything created us anyway... Let me ask you this though... Do you honsetly believe that eve was created from adam's rib? Do you honestly believe that it is eve's fault that they both got kicked out of the garden?

[ZMX]

Who cares if being gay is wrong from an evolutionary standpoint?  Life isn't about natural selection or reproduction.

Life is about doing what makes you happy.  Some people enjoy things you don't.  Get over it.

If there is a God, he sure doesn't mind submitting us to disease, despair, disaster, or death.

[Graham]

If people honestly need religion to tell them "do good, and be rewarded. Do bad, and be punished," to keep them from committing horrible acts(I don't see how you could even say that. People do more killing in the name of religion than anything), then we as a species are truly sad.

I know a guy that heads an AA group. He always gives new comers a phrase to think about: "Your best thinking is what got you here."

Humanity isn't as screwed as you think. We are just too focused on ourselves. Everyone just worries about making their way or doing what makes them happy and don't really worry about others. Which is why alot of teachings in religion is about helping others. Since that is the only way as a whole can any society progress.

[Magus86]

Okay... yes, there is a lot of teaching about helping each other, and that's what I was referring to when I said that I practice christianity better than most christians. George Bush is a Christian. What is he doing to help anybody? Dropping bombs isn't helping anybody.

By the way, I've never heard of Hitler being an atheist. And if he was, why did he target the jews? The jews have been targetted by christians so many times, it's not even funny. During the times of the bubonic plague, some christians believed it was a curse wrought by the jews. They started torturing jews because of it. Hitler wasn't an atheist. Atheists don't target any religion like that. And if he was, that doesn't mean much. Just because one atheist did something stupid, that doesn't mean we all agree with it or would do the same. If you wanna take that route, let's talk about the Crusades...

[Graham]

Okay... yes, there is a lot of teaching about helping each other, and that's what I was referring to when I said that I practice christianity better than most christians. George Bush is a Christian. What is he doing to help anybody? Dropping bombs isn't helping anybody.

Whether Bush is or isn't helping depends on which bias you listen to.  No matter what news you are reading bias is effecting it so don't try and say you are learning the truth somehow.

And I didn't read your post, I just replied to that paragraph because it was in a deleted post I saw. No offense but most longwinded posts are a waste since they usually just drag on what could be said in about two small paragraphs.

[Magus86]

Oh, whatever... If you're not even gonna consider what I have to say, then what's the point of having a conversation at all?

I don't have to listen to the news to know George Bush is a douchebag. I knew that just by listening to him myself back in 2000... and again in 2004.

[Graham]

Oh, whatever... If you're not even gonna consider what I have to say, then what's the point of having a conversation at all?

I don't have to listen to the news to know George Bush is a douchebag. I knew that just by listening to him myself back in 2000.

We weren't having a conversation I just noticed something and commented on it.

About Bush though, admittedly he is a terrible public speaker, no one ever praised him for his public speaking.Though that is really all the position is good for, which is why everyone loves the slick presidents. Also why Obama has a good chance of winning.

[R]

The Hubble Space Telescope (HST) site estimates there is hundreds of billions of galaxies in the universe.



This picture shows approximately 10,000 galaxies.

Each of those galaxies contains anywhere from ten million to one trillion stars.

This photo covers one thirteen-millionth of the entire night sky.

Now, to answer your question about the earth being so perfect that it must have been created, that is flawed logic.  With all of the stars and galaxies in the universe, can you even imagine the number of planets in which one of the figures was off and planets have fallen into their stars or conditions weren't perfect for life?

 There is no way for us to be objective about this because of the fact that the planet we live on DOES have life. It has developed life, and since we have not found life on other planets, as far as we know we are the only ones.  Life might be very common in the universe or it may be very rare, but there is no way for us to tell the former until we find it on another planet.

Here are just some points on how imperfect the world is (for those who say things like "the banana is perfectly made for humans")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1cKD93W3yg

I just don't see how those that follow religion cannot even see the point of view that atheists come from.  Religions are always conforming to societies trends and reinterpreting the bible to fit whatever is the popular view at the moment.  Hundreds of years ago it was taken literally, now its taken figuratively to give those reading it more range to fit it to today's trends.

And again, like I said before, for those who believe so strongly that god has always existed/will always exist; If you can believe that god is like that, then what makes it so difficult to believe that the universe has always existed/will always exist in one form or another?

[Magus86]

responding to what somebody else said is engaging in conversation.

To add to what R just said... we haven't even explored our entire solar system yet... How can we possibly know that there is nothing else out there if we can't even see it to confirm or deny it?

I remember reading a religious magazine in the breakroom of a grocery store I used to work in... It was run by Menonites, which, for those of you who don't know, are kind of like the Amish, but a lot less strict. They don't totally shun and ignore technology, and they really vary from one person to another. Some live like the rest of us, and some still live primitive lives. Anyway, in the breakroom there was a box of bibles and some religious magazines/pamphlets. Everytime somebody would leave behind a newspaper or anything not directly religious, it would get thrown away. But the same religious crap would sit there for months if it ever got thrown away at all.

Basically, this magazine had an article in it that tried to prove the existence of god. And one way in which it did this is to mention the "fact" that our planet is so perfectly and finely tuned to sustain life, that it couldn't possibly have been an "accident." It also tried to say that there is no life on any other planet, which is an incredibly stupid thing to say. We have not physically been to another planet in our solar system yet. I'm not even sure if we've really been to the moon or not. All we've really seen is our own little earth. To say that there is no other life in the universe is one of the biggest displays of ignorance I've ever seen.

Speaking of which, I wonder what you have to say about the water they supposedly found on Mars. Is that another  "test of our faith?"

[Graham]

responding to what somebody else said is engaging in conversation.

If you really want to be that big of an ass about it...

No it's not... what I did was comment on it. Commenting means I don't really care if you reply or not. So if you want to made a mountain out of a molehill reply to this. If you want to let sleeping dogs lie go on with your life.

[Magus86]

I'm not trying to make anything out of anything, and I don't see how defining something makes me an ass. And while that might have just been a comment before, you just responded to something I said again. That makes it a conversation.