Increased Weapon Damage at Range?

[The Owls]

This isn't exactly as it may sound from the title, but hear me out.  Weapons like the deagles suffer from doing almost no damage over long range.  The fact that they don't have any speed means they lose a lot of speed, and in turn damage, fast over range.  In order to give the deagles a fighting chance at long range, and keep the arc, you'd need to boost the damage to a point where they'd be overpowered at close range.

(note that I'm not talking about the 50% damage reduction you get after your bullet goes so far.  I'm talking about the physics and speed of bullets)

What I'm suggesting, which may or may not even be possible, is to make it so the bullets of some weapons don't lose nearly as much of their damage over long range.  It'd mean that you could make it so that arcing weapons would maintain a bit more of their killing ability over long range. 

Again this is simply an idea I'm throwing out here to see what kind of feedback it'd receive.

[Ziem]

I was thinking about something like this, maybe, for example 'arc=x' in weapons.ini which will modify the bullet speed but won't affect the damage.


Example :
Damage=120
Speed=250
Arc=-100

The weapon should calculate the damage normally (dmg*speed), but the bullet's real speed(arc) would be 250-100 = 150.
I hope that someone can understand what I mean.

[Platehead]

Good idea, I understand what you mean...
Is it because normal damage = dmg*speed
But you introduce another variable called arc which decreases the physical bullet speed, but doesn't affect the speed variable in dmg*speed.. right?
So

Overall damage = dmg*speed
Overall speed = speed-arc

Hope I got it right - correct me if I'm wrong
Sounds like a good idea, gives arced guns a better chance

[Ziem]

arc which decreases

or increases.

[STM1993]

Good idea, I understand what you mean...
Is it because normal damage = dmg*speed
But you introduce another variable called arc which decreases the physical bullet speed, but doesn't affect the speed variable in dmg*speed.. right?
So

Overall damage = dmg*speed
Overall speed = speed-arc

Hope I got it right - correct me if I'm wrong
Sounds like a good idea, gives arced guns a better chance

Damn, I'd F12 that! May cause some balancing issues but sure gives not only a good modding option but also a chance to find ways to balance some weapons without tweaking around too much in some ways.



Anyway, although this should have been in the Game Improvement/Suggestion forums, I'd say this is not a bad way to possibly balance *some* weapons. It would be good for modding, but maybe not so much of the case for the general default weapons except maybe one or two of them.


About Desert Eagles:
Desert Eagles are meant to be weak at long range and also as a result, poor for chasing, they don't need to be made any stronger by reducing the amount of damage lost at long range. After all, it's easily one of the best weapons at close and mid-range, with speed, accuracy, damage and versatility already in its hands. All it lacks is range and if you miss you're screwed. If you do that, you're indirectly increasing its range, and you're basically creating another Ruger (overpowered). Also, it is possible, as Rai-Dei said, to actually shoot the DEs at long range. The damage is still pretty decent actually (can still kill in 3 shots 6 bullets), it doesn't do almost no damage. Even though I myself am a public player, I've tried shooting people from long range. The damage wasn't that bad. I think the reason why you said it does "nearly no damage" is because:



1. Lag. Sometimes shots don't register properly.


2. Desert Eagles fire two bullets at once (in one shot). Each bullet has slightly more damage and slightly more speed than a USSOCOM. The stats you see in weapon.ini applies to ONE bullet. To prove this, try copying the stats of the DEs and replace the USSOCOM. You'd find that the "new" USSOCOM would only do almost as much damage as a normal USSOCOM.

The fact that Desert Eagles' two bullets will spread out from each other as it travels further. Chances are, you were unlucky ; only one of the two bullets hit the enemy. This results in the amount of damage that the DEs can normally do be reduced by half and become about that of the USSOCOM. In addition to the fact that bullets lose damage over time as they lose speed, the damage is even more horrendous, that's why it seems like they are doing very little damage at long range.

[a-4-year-old]

I was thinking about something like this, maybe, for example 'arc=x' in weapons.ini which will modify the bullet speed but won't affect the damage.


Example :
Damage=120
Speed=250
Arc=-100

The weapon should calculate the damage normally (dmg*speed), but the bullet's real speed(arc) would be 250-100 = 150.
I hope that someone can understand what I mean.

are you saying that it would fire at a speed of 250 but have damage equivalent to 150 speed? that is the exact opposite of what this topic is saying.

[excruciator]

Realistically, Deagle has enough DPS to beat most autos, sometime even rugers. Only way to beat them is to make them miss, or stay far away. This would essentially make deagle overpowered as half of their disadvantages got taken out.

+, if you are good enough, you can still pick targets off at 20-30m range. Its hard, but it is not unrealistic. Deagle can still take them out in about 4-5 shots.

[STM1993]

And chances are, when you shoot enemies from long range, you're shooting enemies who are running away and are probably low on health.

I was thinking about something like this, maybe, for example 'arc=x' in weapons.ini which will modify the bullet speed but won't affect the damage.


Example :
Damage=120
Speed=250
Arc=-100

The weapon should calculate the damage normally (dmg*speed), but the bullet's real speed(arc) would be 250-100 = 150.
I hope that someone can understand what I mean.

I think I've got a better way to put it or to suggest it.

Damage=495
Speed=550
Arc=550

^ The true damage is still determined by Speed x Damage.
Arc determines how the bullet curves.

This is the set up of the default Barrett. Its arc is 550, so the Barrett will fire EXACTLY as how it would. It would fire pretty straight, but then curve a bit at the end over time.



Damage=495
Speed=550
Arc=0

In this set up, the Barrett fires in a 100% straight line, unlike the current Barrett now which will actually gradually curve over a very long distance. Because if the arc is 0, it is taken that the gun has no curve. No matter how slow the bullet gets, it always flies straight. The only time it ever changes direction is when it ricochets, but it will still fly in a straight line and not curve away despite losing speed.



Damage=495
Speed=550
Arc=190

In this set up, the Barrett's bullet moves just as fast as as the default and the above. However, the arc will be that of the DEs. Imagine DEs that can hit an enemy in an instant in a curve and not have to wait for the bullet to slowly travel down the curve. Same case here.



Damage=495
Speed=550
Arc=-190

In this set up, the Barett is just like the above, except with a very special happening. The Barrett's bullet curves at the DEs' angle, BUT instead of curving downwards, it curves upwards.


NOTE:
The slower the bullet, the more the curve will take effect, just like now. But if its 0, there is no curve, it will fly straight.


This might have been a way to help M79 balancing in future, to make the projectile slower or faster but still maintain at the same arc. Perhaps even the Spas.

[Pie]

STM, I found a sort of paradox in your system...

If a bullet does not curve, then how does the bullet stop moving?

If you have something that moves and is not acted upon by "gravity" then it would never stop moving, until it either ran out of force pushing or collided with a solid mass.

You could make guns that just eventually shot bullets that hung in the air...
Like an m79 that could be used to shoot explosive hover bullets that could block doorways without exploding.

hahahaha... haha... That's cool.

[excruciator]

So ARC is gravity for the bullets.
I like the system, I just wouldn't use it on deagles. it just spells overpowered.

EDIT: ARC+ normal gravity complicate things. Just make bullets unaffected by normal gravity.

STM, I found a sort of paradox in your system...
If a bullet does not curve, then how does the bullet stop moving?

There is no paradox. There would be arc, and there would be normal gravity. There is no arc, but normal gravity still exists, so overtime, bullet will start to dip downward.

[STM1993]

STM, I found a sort of paradox in your system...

If a bullet does not curve, then how does the bullet stop moving?

If you have something that moves and is not acted upon by "gravity" then it would never stop moving, until it either ran out of force pushing or collided with a solid mass.

You could make guns that just eventually shot bullets that hung in the air...
Like an m79 that could be used to shoot explosive hover bullets that could block doorways without exploding.

hahahaha... haha... That's cool.

Oh sh-t good point! But may be great for modded weapons to create mines haha XD

How about this: If the bullet speed reaches 0, the projectile will explode by itself or disappear depending how the type of projectile used (if arc = 0)?

I dont see the paradox.

You see, the bullet does not arc right? And the speed will still keep decreasing over time right?

What if the bullet speed was very low? Let's say,

[ M79 ]
Damage=165000
Speed=60
Arc=0

The projectile will always move straight in the direction you've fired. However, since the bullet loses speed over time, the bullet will eventually slow down to a complete stand still, becoming 0 speed, so the bullet will just stay in mid-air. And since it doesn't curve, the bullet is just going to stay in mid-air if it is unobstructed.

[excruciator]

Someone explain this paradox to me, I don't see it.

I see it now, but the bullet does not need to slow down. It can just keep going until it hits a wall.

There is also the problem of when ARC would kick in.

Would this work?

speed: speed
ARC: when the dip will start
dip: the actual dip

[STM1993]

Someone explain this paradox to me, I don't see it.

I see it now, but the bullet does not need to slow down. It can just keep going until it hits a wall.


There is also the problem of when ARC would kick in.

Read my previous post, I added my explanation. It would be a problem, because the bullet will just stay in mid-air if unobstructed.



Then if that's the case, then should we also add the following options:

1. Amount of speed decreased over time
2. Maximum amount of speed that can be decreased




Btw, what's a dip?

[Pie]

As in, an object travels at a specific speed, though the object is acted upon my gravity, which pulls the object down slowing it.

for example, if you had no bullet arc, yet gravity still affected bullets, you would shoot a bullet straight up, and it would fall straight back, while in the game currently, it has to turn around completely and make a half rotation.(this is sort of rambling, but i'm trying to make it easy to understand.) Now flip it horizontally, and fire the bullet, but because soldat doesn't have gravity, or because the gravity pulling the bullet down is replaced by ARC, which is set to zero, the bullet will stay on the same horizontal axis, but just stop. It would not hit the ground because no force is acting upon it.

I suppose that would mean it wouldn't be able to stop, it would be a constant thing. No force would be acting upon it anywhere, but the force that you used to fire it from the gun. So in reality, the object would be constant.

I think...


I don't do physics, but i understand most of it and it seems logical that it would work in that way...

Date Posted: 19 August 2008, 21:50:30For dip, if i'm not mistaken, it would be a unit to calculate the ARC, it would be a figre that would provide a measurement for the arc to follow?

Actually, i've no idea now. It's 2 am and i'm tired...

[excruciator]

dip is gravity.
arc is essencially a timer or when gravity start working on the bullet.

This system is way too complicated. We are basically twicking stuff that normally soldat does it by itself.


It would take:

speed, bullet_gravity, gravity_timer, speed_drop, speed_timer

[STM1993]

dip is gravity.
arc is essencially a timer or when gravity start working on the bullet.

Pie: gravity would not affect bullets' speed, it merely changes the direction its going.

Ohhh... looks like I got ARC and gravity mixed up. And currently Soldat is using gravity not arc.



And gravity would affect the bullets' speed. How can an object not gain or lose speed when it is pulled down by a force?

I mean, when you shoot a bullet up, it would eventually slow down, and come back down. But when it comes back down, it will move faster and faster. Until it reaches terminal velocity if there is air resistance. But assuming there is not air resistance, the object will just keep gaining speed.



Very complicated system.

[excruciator]

Its horizontal force is not affected.

Gravity affect the speed if the speed is trying to go against it. If not, then gravity would not affect speed.

[STM1993]

Its horizontal force is not affected.

Riiight... I ought to be ashamed of myself >_>

I better get sleeping its 12 midnight and I'm still not in bed for school O.O

[Pie]

I guess...
hmm, So you could give a spaz 900 arc and 1500 bullet speed, but because the arc is basically making the bullet fire downwards, the bullet speed would stay constant. So the damage would carry. So you would potentially be hitting the maximum with every shot. The guns would need to be majorly rebalanced probably. I mean, how much damage does an MP5 have from a meter away? Now it would still hit that much damage, but from 40 meters away. It would make long range guns, like Ak overpowered.

wouldn't it?

[excruciator]

I guess...
hmm, So you could give a spaz 900 arc and 1500 bullet speed, but because the arc is basically making the bullet fire downwards, the bullet speed would stay constant. So the damage would carry. So you would potentially be hitting the maximum with every shot. The guns would need to be majorly rebalanced probably. I mean, how much damage does an MP5 have from a meter away? Now it would still hit that much damage, but from 40 meters away. It would make long range guns, like Ak overpowered.

wouldn't it?

It sure would make spas very good. but nothing else.

or you can make the spread bigger, so the individual projectile has the same damage, but you are just hitting less.